Save the best game of the year, stay with B1G Divisions
Out of all the change that's occurred in college football the last few years, by far my greatest concern is retaining the sanctity, the sheer stakes, of the greatest game there is each year, OSU vs. M. I think the special nature of that game is severely threatened by B1G expansion, and precisely, by the elimination of divisions.
If there were no divisions this year, after our awesome victory against OSU, we would have been preparing to play them again the very next week in the conference championship. And if we lost, all the glow, all the triumph of that victory would have been gone. As bad as that would be, equally bad would be the fact that both teams would know, going into the regular season matchup, that they would play again the next week.
What makes that game special, beyond anything else, is its finality. Win and your season is a success, lose and it isn't. That finality is what makes Ryan Day lose it, because the pressure is so high and he can't take it. Once it's known in future that we play again next week, those stakes, inevitably, are lowered, which is undeniable. And that makes the game less critical, much more like playing them in basketball.
And there is a quick fix. Divisions. The West historically was sub-par, and part of the rationale to do away with divisions. But a West division with USC, UCLA, Washington, Oregon and Wisconsin is at least the equal of the East, it not arguably better. An easy change that should be done, IMO.
December 12th, 2023 at 1:35 PM ^
The Michigan v. Ohio State will not be the last game of the regular season for both teams for very much longer, unless the conference championship game is eliminated. It will be different but I have accepted it.
December 12th, 2023 at 1:41 PM ^
Sadly I think you're right. If they dont eliminate the championship game (and I definitely think they should eliminate the championship game) then the Michigan OSU game needs to move to much earlier in the schedule.
Playing them potentially back to back to back (if we both make the final 12) would redefine stupid.
December 12th, 2023 at 1:45 PM ^
And if both teams hold serve and continue to dominate (not necessarily a given but probably likely), it will be a complete mess. If one team wins the first game, why on earth would they play any of their starters for the "conference championship game?" The thing is, all of these issues are pretty clear for all to see right now, but it does not look like Tiny Tony has any inclination that he has to, ya know, make moves and do stuff.
December 12th, 2023 at 7:05 PM ^
There are far too many reasons to not move The Game. It doesn’t matter if there are divisions or not.
I like the divisions. But divisions create a scenario where the two best teams are not playing for the championship so that is not happening.
Also, the new B10 means it’s much less likely for the championship game to be between Michigan and Ohio. There are so many more competitive teams now that going undefeated is much less likely and the two best teams are not going to be Michigan and Ohio every year.
This year it would have been Washington vs Michigan. What is wrong with that is that Michigan, Washington, Oregon, and Ohio all still make the playoffs but Oregon and Ohio get an off week and Michigan and Washington have to compete for an off week.
What is also wrong is that scheduling should be focused on equalizing strength of schedule across teams. That doesn’t seem to have happened at all. Instead the best teams all play each other for bigger ratings. That unequal scheduling is now the number one reason the two best teams might not end up in the championship game.
December 13th, 2023 at 8:47 AM ^
So if both teams are undefeated for the 1st game, and they trade wins and each end up with 1 loss, who is the true champion? The one who won a mythical "league championship" game or the one that one the regular season game? Or is it a tie? How could one team be awarded the outright league championship when it has a loss against the other?
December 12th, 2023 at 1:46 PM ^
I don't think playing OSU back-to-back will be that likely. It never happened under the Leaders/Legends setup and with the massively unbalanced schedules going forward (we'll play nine of 17 conference opponents), you're likely to have a bunch of teams with the same record at the end of the season and tiebreakers will be a factor. The loser of the Game will be hurt significantly in that scenario.
Whenever it does happen, it will be annoying. But I wouldn't move the Game earlier in the season just because of the possibility of this happening.
(As for the playoff, I imagine there will be no conference matchups in the first round, as in basketball.)
The best thing would definitely be to just get rid of the BTCG. Let teams share the title.
December 12th, 2023 at 1:47 PM ^
It never happened during Legends/Leaders because Michigan sucked during that time.
December 12th, 2023 at 1:48 PM ^
Even so, it's less likely in an 18-team free for all than it was with two 6-team divisions.
December 12th, 2023 at 3:12 PM ^
Right. If next year goes like this year did, we would have played Washington. Different since we play Washington next year, but they would have been the two best teams in the conference.
December 12th, 2023 at 1:50 PM ^
We actually went 6-2 in league play in both 2011 and 2012.
December 12th, 2023 at 2:20 PM ^
2012 still bothers me.
Got smoked by Alabama, but then lost the following 4 games:
13-6 Notre Dame in a turnover fiasco. Half as many turnovers and its probably a comfortable win.
23-9 Nebraska in a game that Denard got hurt down 7-3 inside the 10. Defense kept it to one score till the very end. The Bellomy game.
26-21 Ohio State in which Michigan leads 21-20 at the half and never really threatens in the second half, a criminal misuse of Denard as a RB under Borges.
33-28 South Carolina, South Carolina scores with 11 seconds left to win the game.
A healthy Denard and its probably a division title for Michigan, a second straight win over the Buckeyes and maybe a Big Ten title.
December 12th, 2023 at 3:13 PM ^
Not to mention that Alabama, Notre Dame, and Ohio State were all undefeated in regular season that year. And South Carolina was a bowl game that no one cared about (see other thread).
December 12th, 2023 at 10:55 PM ^
You’re determined to make it seem as if that was a v good team that just had lot of bad luck when really it was supremely mediocre team that was what its record said it was.
December 13th, 2023 at 8:26 AM ^
Nah, I would argue that the Big Ten was not great and prime to be won (Ohio State and Penn State were both on probation) by a team with a healthy Denard Robinson. Ohio State won 6 games by one score or less that year and played no one out of conference. Michigan was as good as that team as demonstrated by the game they played in Columbus.
December 12th, 2023 at 1:47 PM ^
Right. This year's game in Ann Arbor would have been playing for who gets to be the home team the following week in Indy. That would be such a sad and awful scenario.
December 12th, 2023 at 2:08 PM ^
I agree that is awful, but it also might have been to see who gets to play undefeated Washington
December 12th, 2023 at 3:31 PM ^
I'd rather have divisions than rematches with OSU, and I think the preferred option is to get rid of conference championship games. But I am curious as to whether the Big 18 era would see us playing one of the 8 teams we hadn't seen.
The Big 10 in '24 will have 4-5 teams that finish in the top 10, give or take Penn State. In 2023, those teams blew out almost everyone they played in conference except each other - Washington didn't, but they destroyed MSU who's slightly below par with the rest of the Big Ten. So I'd assume that if the '24 season happened a year early, these 5 would only lose to each other. Even If M-OSU beat all comers, it's not guaranteed the game is a prelude to a rematch - an M loss means we'd be in a tiebreaker with PSU or UW, potentially. And UCLA, Rutgers and Maryland all miss both us AND OSU, so the loser of the game may not automatically be in.
But let's get weirder.
M plays Oregon, @Washington, and of course, @OSU (misses PSU)
UW plays M, @PSU, @UO (misses OSU)
UO plays OSU, @M, UW (misses PSU)
OSU plays @UO, @PSU, M (misses UW)
PSU hosts OSU and UW, and misses UO and M
If everyone only won their home games before Thanksgiving Day, PSU would clinch a spot in Indy and M-OSU and UO-UW would both be for the second spot, based on tiebreakers (M wins a H2H tiebreaker with Oregon if both win but loses to UW. OSU would lose a H2H with Oregon, but OSU and UW would have to play rock-paper-scissors). If we assume PSU loses to OSU and UW (reasonable), then M and UO have the toughest schedules. Using the home assumption as above, everyone has 1 loss heading into Thanksgiving except for undefeated Washington. M-OSU loser would be out, winner would be rooting for Washington. Oregon would be out with a loss. If Oregon wins, there'd be some inscrutable tie breakers (either an MOW circle of wins, or Oregon is in but OSU and UW have an impossible tiebreaker).
So...there are very likely rematches if these 5 continue to dominate, but it won't always be M-OSU. But these 5 almost certainly will not continue to dominate for very long because the only team that stays at the top is Alabama. See: Clemson, OSU, Texas, Florida, USC, Nebraska. It'll be stupid but it won't always be rematches of the game.
Getting rid of the title game is the right move. Give Fox some of that CFP money and they'll be on board.
December 12th, 2023 at 2:24 PM ^
Yeah but warde is probably fighting Tony PPtiny tooth and nail to keep osu at the end of the schedule instead of doing anything actually helpful or productive.
December 12th, 2023 at 3:30 PM ^
During the short-lived Leaders/Legends era, it was theoretically possible for us to play them in back-to-back weeks because they were in the opposite division (The Game was a protected crossover rivalry). And who can forget how close we came to Football Armageddon last year when fewer than a handful of plays in both CFP semifinal games prevented a rematch of The Game in the NCG.
December 12th, 2023 at 3:38 PM ^
In the 4-team era (and earlier BCS/Bowl Coalition era), rematches seemed inefficient, unnecessary and unfair - especially from within the same conference. LSU-Bama in 2011 was stupid, and Bama-UGA in '21 was maybe less so but still seemed off.
But in the 12 team era, if rematches are in later rounds - I'm ok with it? Assuming there will be something like 3-4 Big Ten schools and the same number of SEC schools in there, rematches will be nearly inevitable. And it feels less unfair than the 4 team era. The games in November and earlier should mean something, which is why Conference Title games should be killed, but a rematch in late January after slogging through multiple SEC teams doesn't bother me as much.
December 12th, 2023 at 10:59 PM ^
It’s fine, and largely inevitable, for rematches to occur later in the tournament. What nobody wants is to see IMMEDIATE rematches, which basically render the first game moot.
December 12th, 2023 at 7:25 PM ^
How are you going to not play half the teams in the conference and not have a championship game, though?
Ducking teams is going to be a very large factor in records.
December 12th, 2023 at 1:47 PM ^
I'm not convinced Michigan-Ohio State rematches will be as common as people fear. Even if Michigan and Ohio State are both undefeated in conference play going into The Game (historically rare), an 8-1 conference record might not be enough to get into the championship game.
18 is a lot of teams for a conference. I suspect the real problem won't be rematches, it will be sorting out horrifically messy tiebreakers to determine which teams make the championship game.
December 12th, 2023 at 1:49 PM ^
You might be right about your first paragraph, but your second paragraph kind of sounds like even a dumber scenario than if M played OSU again.
They are going to have to dump the championship game. It doesn't make sense. They will eventually and replace it with something else, possibly expand the playoff even further.
December 12th, 2023 at 1:56 PM ^
They'll never get rid of the championship game. If the no-division format proves untenable, the "solution" will probably be the re-establishment of divisions with annual reshuffling so that the big brands can play each other frequently in a format that produces uncontroversial championship game matchups.
December 12th, 2023 at 2:43 PM ^
Annual reshuffling- yeah that won’t happen
December 12th, 2023 at 3:00 PM ^
I agree it's unlikely, but no one knows how the no-division model will play out. If it consistently produces quagmires with 4+ tied teams and no clear way to break the tie because not all of the tied teams have played each other, then the Big Ten will get rid of it.
It's even possible (though unlikely) for there to be three undefeated teams. That is obviously an unacceptable outcome, so it ever comes to pass, the Big Ten will be forced to make changes.
December 12th, 2023 at 4:04 PM ^
Maybe not annual re-shuffling, but re-shuffle every 2 years to cycle home-and-homes seems likely enough. 8 division games, 1 rotating opponent, make sure the 7ish big money schools see each other frequently. I don't think anyone cares if Rutgers-Maryland or Iowa-Nebraska are in the same division as long as they play each other annually, so you even have some flexibility there.
December 12th, 2023 at 2:57 PM ^
At some point we'll have 3+ undefeated or 1 loss conference teams who haven't played each other and will come down to some ridiculous tiebreaker scenario that is completely out of your own control.
Someone on the CBS sports Cover 3 podcast suggested a Big Ten conference playoff. Like top 4 teams do a semi & Final in the Big Ten. Considering the conference is going to have 18 members I don't think it's the worst idea.
Could even schedule it in such a way that every team plays 8 or 9 conference games then leave the last conference week of the year "open" and re-seed like they were going to do in 2020 so that you aren't adding on an extra game.
December 12th, 2023 at 6:03 PM ^
I think the conference playoff is the more likely scenario. The concept of split conference/national championships is a thing of the past that I don't think people really willingly want to go back to.
December 12th, 2023 at 9:41 PM ^
It would be great from a football standpoint but would be awful for the B1G getting teams into the playoff it would drive more losses among the top teams.
December 12th, 2023 at 3:15 PM ^
Agree that you need the championship game, since the conference champions get a bye.
December 12th, 2023 at 11:00 PM ^
The CCG works only if the league remains split into two divisions. And would be better going forward because the influx of teams will bring more competitive balance.
December 12th, 2023 at 2:06 PM ^
Yeah when youve got one team playing OSU, Oregon, Washington, and USC and another team playing Iowa wisconsin and UCLA and stacking the records against each other it is terribly unbalanced.
December 12th, 2023 at 2:25 PM ^
This.
With EIGHTEEN teams (almost half of them competent) there will be a LOT of variability in the top of the standings year over year.
December 12th, 2023 at 3:00 PM ^
I will accept the downvotes for this
Michigan has been "quite good not great" for much of 4 decades. We are currently in a spot we are unaccustomed to. This is not "our normal". Even with coaches we love like Lloyd and Mo (forget RR and Hoke) we often lost 3ish games.
Extrapolating the past 3 years to "forever" is uhh, ambitious. Recency bias is strong. We have an amazing HC, there is no way to extrapolate what happens when he finishes off here.
OSU on the other hand is the 1 major program in the country who has not stumbled in decades. If they lose 2 regular season games, they want people fired. They almost never lose 2 regular season games post Cooper. That's a nearly 25 year sample size (forget 2011 an outlier) They enjoy the biggest hot bed of recruiting in a state north of Mason Dixon, don't care much about school, and are happy to buy players out of HS.
Enjoy what we have now as it is not "typical" and thus expecting UM-OSU matchups 6-7 out of 10 years is not reality of what Michigan's program has been last 3 decades.
LAST - we do have to play OSU every year, no one else does. We do have to play what has been the toughest win in the conference every year, no one else does. That puts us at a competitive disadvantage vs Oregon, Washington, PSU, USC etc. All it takes is an Oregon or Washington to go thru a season of cupcakes like MSU (haha), Northwestern, Indiana and have only 1-2 "difficult" games to get to an undefeated record in conference.
Michigan has a built in difficult schedule yearly with the most difficult opponent in the conf, and then another one whose only existence is to beat us and injure our players. People really underestimate how having OSU protected is a hinderance to get to the championship game vs anyone else in the conference who is not locked in with them forever. High end teams who do not have to play OSU (and Michigan in current state) will probably always finish 1st or 2nd to get to the championship game. Michigan and/or OSU in this format most likely can not lose any other conference game or they are out. Other teams are afforded a mistake along the way and can still get to the championship game.
Gary Moeller (Big Ten Conference) (1990–1994)
1990 Gary Moeller 9–3 6–2 T–1st W Gator 8 7
1991 Gary Moeller 10–2 8–0 1st L Rose 6 6
1992 Gary Moeller 9–0–3 6–0–2 1st W Rose 5 5
1993 Gary Moeller 8–4 5–3 T–4th W Hall of Fame 19 21
1994 Gary Moeller 8–4 5–3 4th W Holiday 12 12
Lloyd Carr (Big Ten Conference) (1995–2007)
1995 Lloyd Carr 9–4 5–3 T–3rd L Alamo 19 17
1996 Lloyd Carr 8–4 5–3 T–5th L Outback 20 20
1997 Lloyd Carr 12–0 8–0 1st W Rose 2 1
1998 Lloyd Carr 10–3 7–1 T–1st W Florida Citrus 12 12
1999 Lloyd Carr 10–2 6–2 T–2nd W Orange† 5 5
2000 Lloyd Carr 9–3 6–2 T–1st W Florida Citrus 10 11
2001 Lloyd Carr 8–4 6–2 2nd L Florida Citrus 20 20
2002 Lloyd Carr 10–3 6–2 3rd W Outback 9 9
2003 Lloyd Carr 10–3 7–1 1st L Rose† 7 6
2004 Lloyd Carr 9–3 7–1 T–1st L Rose† 12 14
2005 Lloyd Carr 7–5 5–3 T–3rd L Alamo
2006 Lloyd Carr 11–2 7–1 T–2nd L Rose† 9 8
2007 Lloyd Carr 9–4 6–2 T–2nd W Capital One 19 18
(formatting is bad but records)
December 12th, 2023 at 3:17 PM ^
The least the B1G could do is make strength of schedule a tiebreaker, instead of the overhyped head-to-head. Maybe strength of schedule first, then something that tries to avoid rematches.
December 12th, 2023 at 5:49 PM ^
This is the truth about our actual performance over the past 40 years if you examine the records. We need to consider how to handle scheduling Ohio State going forward to make sure that it is not making playoff access more difficult or potentially putting us at higher risk of consistently garnering a lower seed and missing out on byes or home field.
December 12th, 2023 at 11:02 PM ^
You’ve got in backwards. Ohio has it the hardest because it always has to play Michigan. How’s that going?
December 12th, 2023 at 3:25 PM ^
It's pretty easy to imagine a 3- or 4-way tie with an awful tiebreaker situation. Next year, Michigan, Penn State, OSU and Washington each have two games against the other 3 (M does not play PSU, OSU does not play UW). Each goes 8-1 in conference, going 1-1 against the others. Who goes to the title game? If one of those teams is ranked 10th due to a nonconference loss, can they decline the invite to the B1GCG to avoid a loss that would knock them out of the playoffs?
Going to 18 teams is more of a reason to have divisions and a championship game, not less. Either keep East/West now that the West can be legitimately good or add two more teams and have an "original" big 10 division and a "newbie" division. Either way The Game gets to keep its importance and its place in the schedule (although I could live with it getting moved up a week to its former place on the Saturday before Thanksgiving, so it's easier for students to attend, and so that there is a week of separation with the B1GCG).
December 12th, 2023 at 2:15 PM ^
While I like The Game being the last regular season game with the new format and teams I think Michigan vs OSU should be moved to end of September or early October. I am not banging a drum to have this happen but just my thoughts.
First, you do this so there isn't the possibility of back to back games with Ohio State.
Secondly, even if there isn't back to back games against Ohio State, the B1G Championship game will most likely be against a team that could actually win the game. After playing the intense game the week before having to get back up for another huge game to earn a bye in the playoffs would be hard. This was the last year of possibly having a non competitive team in the B1G Championship game.
Finally, I believe the first round of the playoffs next year is a week or two after championship weekend so having Ohio State/B1G Championship/Playoff game in a 4 week span would be very hard to stay healthy for all three games. Would prefer to break that up a bit and move OSU earlier in the season.
December 12th, 2023 at 2:19 PM ^
You could keep the game distinction by making it the first game of the season. Miami and FSU did that for a bit and while they were not the best played games the hitting and intensity was unbelievable.
December 12th, 2023 at 2:26 PM ^
I believe the first round of the CFP - on campus games - will be two weeks (or less) after the Conference Championship games.
The B1G CCG will be on December 7th. The first round games will be held on Friday December 20th (one game in the evening) and 21st (with three games - early, afternoon, evening).
December 12th, 2023 at 2:45 PM ^
Aren’t you a week late on both?
December 12th, 2023 at 2:19 PM ^
For students' sake, that game should not be played Thanksgiving weekend. A ton miss it due to family obligations. I never got a chance to see it in person as a student. I'm happy if it moves from that week.
December 12th, 2023 at 2:20 PM ^
How would the board feel (and I hate it, but I'll ask anyway)...if Michigan/OSU opened every season?
For example, what it if was the Week 0 game every year and officially kicked off college football season every year?
Back in the days of NCAA Football (hooray that it's come back!) I used to custom schedule Notre Dame as the Week 0 game. I thought it was cool that the two winningest programs opened college football every year, that Michigan/ND arrogance of, "okay, now you all may begin your season."
Open every regular season with Michigan/ND and close it with Army/Navy.
...but what if that became the new tradition for the Michigan/OSU game? Open with "The Game" and close it with Army/Navy?
Again, I hate it, and I hope nothing ever changes...but it doesn't seem like I'm going to get my way and I agree, Michigan/OSU on back-to-back weekends will be cool the first time it happens, and then it will SUCK every time after that.
I just hope this whole things blows up and we get "Division 0" sooner rather than later.
December 12th, 2023 at 2:28 PM ^
I would be against the "game of the year" being held the first weekend. Teams learn a LOT after their first game - and, Michigan needs to learn too.
December 12th, 2023 at 2:46 PM ^
Badly
December 12th, 2023 at 2:21 PM ^
A lot of conferences are ending championships, think the big ten does too after next year.
December 12th, 2023 at 2:28 PM ^
Respectfully, which conferences are ending their CCGs? I haven't heard that.