Richard Johson (SI) Tweets Photo of Our Stolen Sign Sheets
https://x.com/RJ_cfb/status/1721934657132900552?s=20
Media embed isn't working or there would be an image.
November 7th, 2023 at 1:51 PM ^
So what would constitute scouting then?
November 7th, 2023 at 2:16 PM ^
Scouting is sending a person who can watch a future opponent, figure out what they do, their tendencies, the strengths/weaknesses of players, etc., and then...report back with a scouting report.
Lets say there is a great HS pitcher. Tigers send a pro scout to watch his pitch a game. Or...Tigers acquire a video of a game the kid pitched. Those are not the same thing/
November 7th, 2023 at 2:16 PM ^
Having coaches in person, making notes of tendencies and trying to apply that information to future games. Which is exactly what the rest of the B1G was doing. They were scouting for their fellow teams. Now they might try to make some hay out of the "future opponents" part of the rule, but if allies of OSU, for example, can help two other teams beat Michigan before The Game, they can render the outcome of The Game meaningless with regard to the BTCG. So having actual coaches scouting on behalf of other teams seems way more significant than CS trying to decipher his own footage.
Again, Michigan is getting lambasted in the press for the CS nonsense, so this kind of clear collusion needs to be discussed far and wide. This goes beyond courtesy between coaches and is orchestrating desired outcomes in the league.
November 7th, 2023 at 5:16 PM ^
Agree completely. All uses of the word scouting describe a complex task that requires skill, analysis and judgement.
November 7th, 2023 at 1:18 PM ^
When you get all-22 of other teams games it may not have the sidelines. But are you allowed to record all-22 of your own games? Because the sideline is removed once teams share the video. But if teams were sharing the all-22 through back channels then it may have included sidelines.
November 7th, 2023 at 12:49 PM ^
IIRC, the in-person scouting rule is separate from the no-recording rule, which technically only applies to your own games. So, yes, the recording would be a distinction but not one that matters for determining whether the 11.6 bylaw was violated
November 7th, 2023 at 1:00 PM ^
I am not sure if you responded to me, but I was answering the above poster who said there is all-22 to offer this info.
November 7th, 2023 at 1:09 PM ^
We were responding to the same poster. My point was that, all-22 broadcast details aside, the in-person scouting rule is different from recording rule. So the recording distinction, if relevant at all, does not save the Big Ten spy ring from running afoul of the in-person scouting rule.
November 7th, 2023 at 1:00 PM ^
Even it's not technically against the rules, hopefully it'll shut up the moral grandstanding about mUh cOmPeTiTiVe InTeGrItY.
November 7th, 2023 at 1:05 PM ^
Stalions did not break Rule 11.6.
But the coaches and analysts of teams A, B, and C that were on the sidelines of ABC's games against Michigan actually are actually doing advanced scouting in violation of 11.6 (and then passing that advanced scouting on to team D, E, and/or F, etc.).
November 7th, 2023 at 2:01 PM ^
I agree that Stalions did not break Rule 11.6 by arranging for others to attend future opponent's games and record their sidelines. As we have stated many times, under the NCAA Bylaws recording is not scouting. (But if that was Stalions on the sidelines of the CMU game, that may be a different story.)
In any event, you raise an interesting question about whether the staff of teams A, B, and C that were on the sidelines of ABC's games against Michigan were doing "[o]ff-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents" in violation of 11.6. I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion. First, we don't know the extent to which the sign sheets that were compiled were based on (a) the ABC staffs' in-person observations of Michigan's signs, as opposed to (b) their study of video. Second, in the course of any game between A, B, or C against Michigan, the ABC staff's observing and making notes of Michigan's signs is not "off-campus" scouting of a "future opponent." During those games, at least in isolation, the ABC staff was doing on-campus observation of a current opponent. So that alone would not be a violation of Rule 11.6. I think you would only begin to implicate Rule 11.6 if there was some kind of agreement or understanding between ABC and DEF that ABC's observation and analysis was not only for its own in-game benefit, but was being done with the intent to share what they learned with teams D, E, and F.
November 7th, 2023 at 2:20 PM ^
It seems like the case can be made that this arrangement is quid pro quo between the participants. I will share my info to benefit you, and you will do the same by sharing with me and/or taking down my biggest conference opponent. The scouting is being done on behalf of the co-conspirators. If it is not to their benefit, then why bother sharing it?
November 7th, 2023 at 2:48 PM ^
You say "... in the course of any game between A, B, or C against Michigan, the ABC staff's observing and making notes of Michigan's signs is not "off-campus" scouting of a "future opponent."
But my point is that ABC's staff now has become the in-person scouts for team D (which plays Michigan in two weeks). Team D has now violated Rule 11.6. And the coaches of Team ABC are now complicit in that infraction.
November 7th, 2023 at 1:32 PM ^
This information would have actually been gathered by paid staffers of opposing teams and not in-game, which is explicitly against the rules.
November 7th, 2023 at 2:16 PM ^
But the staffers must have gathered the info in-game, as everyone is saying that all-22 film doesn't show sidelines. So the only way to connect signs to plays would be via in-person intel, right?
November 7th, 2023 at 2:22 PM ^
But if they are gathering the info with the intention of sharing it, then they become proxies of the recipient, just like those working for CS. Either you are responsible for those helping you, or you are not. It can't be true for one team and not for anybody else.
November 7th, 2023 at 2:42 PM ^
Illinois v. Michigan at Champaign-Urbana. Illinois coaches and analysts decipher Michigan's signs during the game.
Illinois coach/analysts then send a document with the decoded messages to... a coach or analyst at one of Michigan's upcoming opponents, OSU.
The recipient OSU/coach analyst has received in-person scouting of a future opponent (Michigan). OSU coach/analyst has violated NCAA Rule 11.6.
Now, if you disagree and conclude that the OSU coach/analyst did NOT violate Rule 11.6...then neither did Conner Stalions.
November 7th, 2023 at 12:43 PM ^
Also the first documented evidence of wrong doing outside of Stallions at CMU. I mean if there are videos of people sitting in seats recording games, don't we think it would have leaked by now? Same with the proof of Stallions buying tickets?
Also absent from the Stallions "dossier," which sideline was he buying when he sent people to other games. I have a hard time believing they were scouting Rutgers and Northwestern signs, but it's pretty clear that Illinois, Indiana, and Rutgers have all had our signs in the past.
November 7th, 2023 at 1:04 PM ^
It's not evidence of wrongdoing. Stealing is not illegal. The evidence of wrongdoing will be in how this information was found. This is the whole point. We know everyone steals signs.
The collusion, assuming it happened (I'd say it's likely), is probably commonplace too. It's a fair expectation for the enforement to be similar.
In person scouting (with video) and sending teams video I'm sure happens everywhere else. I'm the video guy for my 10 year old's football team. I did both of those things this season. I suppose it's possible that Connor Stalions and I are the only ones to do in person scouting... Hopefully I don't get a show-cause from watching his games.
November 7th, 2023 at 12:54 PM ^
The same by-law is violated by sharing these documents because these coaches (not low level staffers, btw) scouted Michigan in person when their teams played Michigan as what Michigan violated.
And since multiple teams shared them, multiple teams violated this rule.
Looks like we have to suspend the entire B1G.
November 7th, 2023 at 1:06 PM ^
The key word is "multiple" teams violated this rule so that means all of the above parties are equally as guilty as Michigan. This should all come out and then let's see what B-10 Commish Petitti will do next.
November 7th, 2023 at 1:42 PM ^
I'll say it again here: my theory is that the reason Stalions decided to set up his vast network is that he was getting cut out of the Sunday exchange.
Last time I said this, somebody thought the timeline was wrong. But it isn't.
November 7th, 2023 at 12:33 PM ^
Drip . . . Drip . . . Drip
November 7th, 2023 at 12:41 PM ^
Splash, drip, drip, woo, splash, go ayy
Slippery, 'scuse me, please me
November 7th, 2023 at 12:34 PM ^
Dick Johnson, another great character for this story.
November 7th, 2023 at 12:47 PM ^
A good man, but not quite as effective as Dick Jones at OCP
November 7th, 2023 at 12:34 PM ^
I'm sure r/cfb is going to handle this information with their usual patience and tact, and surely not rush to call this offense "legal and within the bounds of the rulebook" while simultaneously screeching for the Big Ten and the NCAA to ban harbaugh from coaching football for life.
November 7th, 2023 at 12:36 PM ^
Already started.
November 7th, 2023 at 1:47 PM ^
I swear that place was pretty awesome before all this. I had reasonable conversations with OSU/MSU fans all the time. Maybe the community has grown, and the long tails of ridiculousness have finally caught up to sub, but it has been really disappointing.
November 7th, 2023 at 12:34 PM ^
Richard Johnson, and I repeat myself.
November 7th, 2023 at 12:41 PM ^
I am very relieved to see this thread didn't get very far without someone pointing out that the guy's name is Richard Johnson. I have hope in humanity again.
November 7th, 2023 at 1:01 PM ^
Do gifs get worn out? Cuz this one is getting some serious play over the last several days.
November 7th, 2023 at 1:12 PM ^
Yeah, you're probably right but this situation is classic table-turning theatre. And I'm lazy.
November 7th, 2023 at 12:35 PM ^
Ok I’ve been watching A LOT of Michigan football and I have yet to see the “Boob” signal.
November 7th, 2023 at 12:37 PM ^
Probably introduced as a way to throw off Tucker.
November 7th, 2023 at 12:39 PM ^
You win the internet this hour.
November 7th, 2023 at 1:07 PM ^
He’s more of an ass-man
November 7th, 2023 at 12:38 PM ^
Mattison used to fondle his ample bosoms on the sideline. We have the gifs.
November 7th, 2023 at 1:38 PM ^
Ok THAT I do remember
November 7th, 2023 at 12:36 PM ^
I'd like to know more about this PI firm and who ordered them.
November 7th, 2023 at 12:36 PM ^
Other teams walking right into the fucking around and finding out trap.
November 7th, 2023 at 12:44 PM ^
Thanks! Did you use media embed for this or another function?
November 7th, 2023 at 12:49 PM ^
Just the regular media embed -- I've found if you have any sort of ad or script blockers it can disrupt the functionality.
November 7th, 2023 at 12:54 PM ^
I've found that the X embed address they give you doesn't work. I have to copy the address from address bar at the top of the page and put that in the embed box.
November 7th, 2023 at 1:37 PM ^
Amusingly, the exact opposite is true for me. Thanks, internet!
November 7th, 2023 at 12:37 PM ^
You're not a serious person if you're trying to argue Stallions using his buddy's iPhone footage from the stands is worse than coaches colluding to perform illegal off-campus scouting/sign decoding for their colleagues in advance of playing Michigan.
November 7th, 2023 at 12:51 PM ^
And I expect that this scouting was prob done using mobile phones. No one memorizes much of anything these days when it so much easier and accurate to use a phone.
November 7th, 2023 at 1:03 PM ^
Big Ten opponents colluding against Michigan by giving professional curated scouting to Michigan's future opponents is far worse than Connor Stalions hiring rubes that leave at halftime because it's raining.
We have won the but . . . but . . . but . . . WHAT ABOUT SPORTSMANSHIP?!! battle.
Now we're down to letter of the law. The Big Ten rivals collusion against us may not technically violate the letter of the law, but then Connor Stalions buddies attending football games does not technically violate the letter of the law either.
What exactly are we being charged with here?