ray ratto tears texas a new one for the herman firing
https://defector.com/texas-has-discovered-a-new-level-of-f-u-money/
$, but the money shot:
The rational view is that universities the size of Texas aren’t universities at all but football teams with libraries attached like mobile homes.
is a dead-flat perfect description of the way ohio state, clemson, and alabama treat their football teams.
January 3rd, 2021 at 11:14 AM ^
https://defector.com/texas-has-discovered-a-new-level-of-f-u-money/
(sorry for the bad link)
January 3rd, 2021 at 11:23 AM ^
Another holier than thou post.
January 3rd, 2021 at 12:29 PM ^
I guess I don't understand why you can't be both an elite university and whatever OSU is. I mean the 100ish male athletes between the football and basketball programs aren't going to sink the academic status if they're given the option to take online classes that a 1st grade could pass and aren't graded, while devoting 100+ hours per week to football.
January 3rd, 2021 at 12:45 PM ^
I agree. As someone below commented, the focus here is mostly football and basketball, but that's interest on this site, not the mission of the University of Michigan, which is to teach well, serve the broader community, excel in scholarship, and excel in sports.
While ALL colleges and universities would say the same, not all devote the effort and resources to actually DO it. I believe Michigan does.
January 3rd, 2021 at 1:09 PM ^
Let’s be great with high standards.
January 3rd, 2021 at 12:46 PM ^
Yea, OSU is a pretty good university. Not Michigan, UCLA, Cal, UNC, Texas, or UVA level when it comes to public universities, but pretty good in its own right. UNC's academics did not take a hit overall following that academic scandal a few years back. Duke is basically operating a basketball factory and no one thinks any less of Duke academically for that reason. Texas is still an elite academic university.
January 3rd, 2021 at 1:40 PM ^
You can’t bring up how duke has been a basketball factory and talk about their high academic standards. That wouldn’t leave Michigan with any more excuses for being an annual disappointment.
January 3rd, 2021 at 4:35 PM ^
Duke had the benefit of a third party organization (Nike) illegally funneling the best basketball players to them for years. Michigan won’t play that game (to the same scale) thanks to the Ed Martin situation so many years ago.
You can already see the impacts of the FBI investigation on college basketball. Football works differently (bagmen associated with the school), yet Michigan won’t fully dive in like other schools have.
This is less about the combination of academics and athletics and more about how much a school is willing to break rules just to win at sports. As can be seen in both basketball and football, the large majority of schools don’t think it is worth it. For those that do, yay, good for them. It would be really nice to have an organization which is able to enforce a level playing ground.
January 3rd, 2021 at 2:17 PM ^
"Not Michigan, UCLA, Cal, UNC, Texas, or UVA level when it comes to public universities, but pretty good in its own right."
"Texas is still an elite academic university."
Q1) Do you consider the the US News rankings as a legitimate comparison tool?
Q2) If yes, how do you differentiate "elite" (#13 Texas) to "pretty good in its own right" (#17 OSU)?
January 3rd, 2021 at 11:35 PM ^
Generally speaking, Texas's reputation is head-and-shoulders above OSU. It brings in more Federal research dollars, has more prize-winning faculty members, and pumps out more IP as measured by patent and licensing metrics. Even though Texas is only ranked marginally higher than OSU in the USNWR ranking, it doesn't reflect the true spectrum of difference and arguably lays bare that there are some deficiencies in the ranking criteria. Personally I put more stock in the Times Higher Education league tables which have considerably more following in the rest of world, place more emphasis on university outputs (e.g. journal citations, patents, job placement and post-graduation success) than inputs (e.g. SAT scores, class sizes, alumni giving rates), and are less prone to favor per-capita student metrics (e.g. endowment per student) than the overall impact of how resources are allocated.
January 3rd, 2021 at 12:47 PM ^
I don't have a problem with it. Physical intelligence is underrated anyhow. I was a good student, but didn't know as much about anything as a football player did about football. Who knows more about the ballistics of a jump shot -- a physics major, or a skilled shooting guard? The former might be able to map the equations, but the latter has a model that works, which is what real knowledge is all about.
January 3rd, 2021 at 12:51 PM ^
Good point.
OTOH, when they are designing rockets I'll take the high honors aerospace engineer over Duncan Robinson every time...
January 3rd, 2021 at 12:54 PM ^
Absolutely. The aerospace engineer has a model that works for one purpose, and Duncan for another purpose. But only one of those two traditionally gets called "intelligence"
January 3rd, 2021 at 1:43 PM ^
You should read The Cult of Smart by Freddie DeBoer.
January 3rd, 2021 at 1:05 PM ^
All true, but completely unconnected to the OP. The fact that playing football or being intimate with its concepts, etc. is legitimate by itself was never in question. It's how universities conduct such activity--the contradictions inherent, the lack of control or ethical conduct that goes with are what's at issue.
January 3rd, 2021 at 1:16 PM ^
Thanks for pulling the discussion back to the OP. However, I don't believe this small string is completely unconnected.
I see it that way because I don't see inherent contradictions in universities that aim to excel at sports. Contradictions, yes. Inherent ones, no. Though pundits have made a habit of identifying academics and "big-time" sports as at war with each other, that's true of virtually every human endeavor, the presumed goal undercut by counter-impulses and interests.
As you suggest, the issue is the level of control and ethical conduct.
January 3rd, 2021 at 1:23 PM ^
Plus, is there a reason a university can't offer a bachelor's degree in football or basketball? Yes, there would be certain academic requirements to go along with the hours spent in practice but that is a degree that absolutely has professional earning potential, and probably offers a higher chance of job prospects than some other degrees that are already being offered, which I will not name but one could probably imagine what I'm referring to.
January 3rd, 2021 at 1:35 PM ^
I've always assumed it would be similar to degrees in dance, acting, art, etc. Those are "skills" as much as being good at a sport, and if you actually have to attend some classes then that should work. I'm actually amazed when someone like Devin Gardner gets two degrees while also being a really good football player because being good at either one of those pursuits is beyond the capability of a decent chunk of the country's population.
January 3rd, 2021 at 2:44 PM ^
Not sure why you were downvoted here, but I tend to agree with the above few posts. I didn’t know shit about football as far as Xs and Os and blocking schemes and stuff, before coming here and reading film breakdown by the staff and users. The fact that these OL need to know that type of stuff inside and out and on a split second read post snap tells me that these 18, 19, 20 year olds are all far more integrated and knowledgeable than I am/have been, as a lifelong football fan and someone who played for a decade growing up.
They should certainly be afforded credit hours at the very least. That said, the university DOES offer degrees in “General Studies” (or did up to a few years back, maybe that’s changed) which is essentially 60 credits of lower level and then another 60 credits of upper level courses, with some parameters, but allows you to just take generic college courses and get a bachelors degree
January 3rd, 2021 at 3:19 PM ^
There are careers in sport even if you don't play the sport professionally. Coaching, training, analysts, the business side of sport, etc....Why not give athletes a field of study where they can pursue what they love beyond playing on the field.
January 3rd, 2021 at 4:44 PM ^
Interesting take, the average NFL career is about 2.5 years and the number of college football players drafted is around 1.5 to 2 pct. There is a very limited number of professional football players that you are discussing building a football degree around. The vast overwhelming majority, even at Alabama, OSU, & Clemson will be doing something else other than football upon graduation.
January 3rd, 2021 at 2:08 PM ^
My father was a talented pipe fitter. U of M doesn't grant degrees in that or he would probably have been an honors student. Your argument has merit once U of M starts granting basketball or football degrees. However, what would have been the collective GPA of the team this season? A 1.0?
January 3rd, 2021 at 1:35 PM ^
Because elite universities don't have a mirror test as an admissions program.
January 3rd, 2021 at 1:38 PM ^
You can but the powerful alumni need to demand it. So far, the gray hair crowd isn’t that commuted.
January 3rd, 2021 at 1:59 PM ^
Pete Carroll/USC is perfect case in point.
January 3rd, 2021 at 3:42 PM ^
Well the fact is UM is an institution of higher learning and is one of the top universities in the country. It was founded to educate people and produce professionals in different areas of study. Football is a sport that came about years later and is a game supposedly played by amateur athletes as a way to help pay for their education.
You don’t sacrifice your standing as a top educational facility of 30K students so 100 students don’t really have to take classes and can basically play a game while calling themselves students so people can see the team win an extra game or two a year.
I think it’s sad some schools have taken that route but I just assume UM keep student/athletes rather then just athletes because they dedicate 20 hours a week to a sport
January 3rd, 2021 at 1:12 PM ^
Yeah, OP, the Univ of Texas at Austin is only the most prestigious public university in Texas.
January 3rd, 2021 at 2:06 PM ^
I don't think it's holier than thou. I think if you're football team is your institution than that is a fundamental issue. If you the commercials for your academic institution are mostly scenes of athletics, then that should not be viewed as a good thing
January 3rd, 2021 at 2:17 PM ^
i stand by my contention, implied but not stated, that clemson, ohio state, and alabama treat their football programs in a way that runs counter to the reasons those institutions exist in the first place. michigan does, as well, but to a lesser extent, and i am totally comfortable with that differing emphasis.
January 3rd, 2021 at 3:39 PM ^
That is BS - OSU is a good school. This is a pointless exercise. OSU Football Players are quality people getting degrees no worse than U of M. The difference is the AD and the culture of HS Football in Ohio and that translates to OSU. Michigan does not care about football as much. Period. Not because they could tweak admissions and suddenly compete.
January 3rd, 2021 at 4:58 PM ^
i'm not disparaging ohio state (or alabama or clemson, for that matter) as academic institutions. they are all fine schools.
what i AM disparaging is the approach that ohio state takes toward its football program as a part of the overall institution.
January 3rd, 2021 at 2:31 PM ^
I wish he would have told us how he really felt.
January 3rd, 2021 at 11:20 AM ^
I’d rather be that and win
January 3rd, 2021 at 12:25 PM ^
Texas is that and all they've got to show for it is Ann Arbor (or State College or Lincoln or Knoxville) in Austin.
And Sarkisian? Just another retread. You want a Dabo? A Lincoln Riley? A Ryan Day? You gotta be both lucky and good in identifying the next great guy. IMHO, that guy resides in Ames Iowa. Texas will regret not hiring him.
January 3rd, 2021 at 12:45 PM ^
And so will Michigan.
January 3rd, 2021 at 1:08 PM ^
Sark isn’t just a retread he’s made a career as a Lane Kiffin backup plan at USC, Bama and maybe now Texas - Lane signed a big extension nobody knew a thing about until the Sark to Texas rumors took off.
January 3rd, 2021 at 2:34 PM ^
And you have divined this special knowledge of Matt Campbell’s future how? Time machine? Tarot Cards? Recall RR was all set to be Alabama’s savior next coach before he backed out. It ain’t so easy to identify the next “great coach” as you seem to think.
January 3rd, 2021 at 3:11 PM ^
No, it aint so easy. Thats why I said you need to be lucky and good. As for Campbell, I've devined nothing. I believe I said IMHO. Its my opinion and I may be unlucky and bad.
January 3rd, 2021 at 11:21 AM ^
I don't see a problem with trying to be the best at everything. We should have the best pre-med, best business school, best dentistry, best engineering, best every major, and best every sport including football.
January 3rd, 2021 at 11:52 AM ^
Should also strive to be the best employer, have the best ethics, best community etc etc.
January 3rd, 2021 at 12:02 PM ^
The University of Chicago discovered last century that this wasn't possible, and all they got as a result was a measly 100 Nobel Laureates.
There is absolutely a case to be made that high-cost athletic programs are in direct conflict with the aims of research universities. This doesn't discount the value of athletics overall - but the huge investments made in the athletic physical plant has to be a bit of a distraction.
January 3rd, 2021 at 12:17 PM ^
The irony of this “holier than thou” OP is that this is broadcast on a fan site devoted towards the sports being played by student athletes who get more advantages than other ‘regular’ students...and 99% of those posts here are about MMichigans successes on the football field/basketball court.
let’s stop pretending that Football and basketball aren’t the reason we are here. Rarely does a ‘congrats on the Nobel laureate’ post happen here. Michigan isn’t the University of Chicago.
January 3rd, 2021 at 12:36 PM ^
I am on this blog bc of UM sports, but this blog and fan base do call out and take pride in UM’s non-athletic accomplishments. We’ve seen posts about astronauts, arts & entertainment, and IIRC 60 minute segments, and much more with UM alumnus/faculty. This space quite often congratulates and even crows about non-athletic contributions.
January 3rd, 2021 at 12:58 PM ^
The minority of posts. Let’s be honest with ourselves.
and probably 50% + of the posters here Never even entered a classroom in Ann Arbor.
January 3rd, 2021 at 7:07 PM ^
I certainly was not, and I don’t think anyone was, arguing that UM sports weren’t the reason we’re all here. My point was this blog and fan base talk different UM contributions a fair amount. I don’t generally subscribe to “stay in your lane” or “if you don’t like it leave” critiques. This blog has had room for a diversity of topics for years. I like that.
January 3rd, 2021 at 2:39 PM ^
One of my favorites here, although I haven’t seen it in a couple of years, is the coverage of our solar racer team. If there were academic based competitions, I believe ther would be a big audience for it here. Bring back College Bowl!
January 3rd, 2021 at 12:38 PM ^
Research universities? You mean where grad students and adjunct professors are indentured servants? Where vast teams of highly paid salespeople work at getting eight figure grants and gifts while the University sits on multi billion dollar endowments?
How about a teaching university? Where the students come first. Where the vast resources of a major university are spent to better educate students at a price affordable to those who are not plutocrats.
Rant concluded. Wipes brow and pours a stiff one.
January 3rd, 2021 at 1:07 PM ^
Userpic captions verified.
January 3rd, 2021 at 3:15 PM ^
Hey Rob...what the hell does Userpic captions verified mean?
January 3rd, 2021 at 2:02 PM ^
Well put Robbie. As I stated in the bitcoin thread the other day, greed and ego quickly overcome morals and character.