Potential Big Ten Expansion
This comes up every once in a while, and I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts. Personally, I've always like Syracuse and Missouri. I remember Brian's post on the subject from a while back effectively called both "meh", but they're the closest things to perfect fits outside of Notre Dame.
November 29th, 2008 at 1:52 AM ^
What does Pitt really bring to the table? Good academics and a mildly historical football program? Does anyone in Pittsburgh actually care, though?
Iowa State is a wasteland. As Brian's post said the, only benefit is that it's in Iowa.
As for conference championships and it hurting the Ohio State game... it doesn't hurt games like Texas and Oklahoma.
November 29th, 2008 at 2:22 AM ^
I think that the Red River Shootout hasn't been hurt because it's in the middle of the season and not the traditional last game. Plus it was a non-con game for most of its history, so that probably factors in as well.
November 29th, 2008 at 3:55 AM ^
Texas and Oklahoma are also both in the Big 12 South, so they could never be playing for the championship.
It seems like it'd be tough for The Game not to be diminished in importance somehow with a title game. Because if:
A. The schools end up in the same division they could end up competing for the division title but in no scenario the conference title, so we'd lose that.
B. The schools end up in different divisions, by the time The Game is played, there is a pretty good chance the championship teams will already be decided so then the regular season matchup loses a lot of importance (and, if they're both playing in the title, the bigger matchup will be on a neutral site)
C. (least likely) The game is moved to the middle of the season so the game has bigger importance on the title matchup, and we lose the end of the season factor
So that makes me (selfishly as a Michigan fan) not want a title game. Round-robin sounds like a good idea too, but the Pac-10 is actually 10 teams, and three non-conference games seems like a world away from the 1 we'd have if there were a 12th team and even two non-conference games sounds small, since for us we'd have Notre Dame, and would never be able to justify a big matchup for the 1st game of the season (if we ever could convince Martin to get another big non-conference).
So, for me at least, that leaves the current system, and maybe a non-divisional system where the top two teams end up with the title game at the end of the season, or maybe leave the possibility for a tie-breaker game as well. I don't know, I guess I'm open to ideas.
November 29th, 2008 at 7:27 AM ^
I guess this is just something I'll never understand. Do you hate OSU because you might win a Big Ten title? (by the way the default Big Ten title game is much rarer than it's made out to be)
November 29th, 2008 at 10:08 PM ^
No, I'm saying that if Michigan returns to glory and joins OSU atop the Big 10, there's a strong possibility that the teams play twice in a season with a title game, meaning The Game will cease to be the battle that comes but once a year and become the battle that could come twice a year (twice in two weeks even). And in the very unlikely, but by no means impossible case that the teams split the regular season game and the title game, bragging rights will be arguable, and the universe will cease to exist.
Maybe after this year it seems "rarer than made out to be," but in case you forgot we were a powerhouse before in the Big Ten, with equal Big Ten-powerhouse status to OSU's. And, of the 5 UM-OSU games before this year's, 3 were for the Big Ten title. So, basically not rare at all
December 1st, 2008 at 4:05 PM ^
There is no way in hell that Michigan and OSU would not be in the same division, as it would keep them playing anually. So, no, they wouldn't play twice a year.
December 1st, 2008 at 11:38 PM ^
Yes, people in Pittsburgh actually do care. There is a pretty even split in the Pittsburgh area between loyalty Pitt and loyalty to Penn State and the two factions hate each other. Pitt definitely fits the academic requirements, too.
December 5th, 2008 at 12:01 PM ^
Pitt hates Penn State. Penn State doesn't give a shit about Pitt.
December 5th, 2008 at 12:09 PM ^
Yes, that is true in general. Kind of an inferiority complex thing. But actually in Pittsburgh there is a decent reciprocal animosity.
December 5th, 2008 at 12:43 PM ^
Michigan and MSU?
November 29th, 2008 at 10:33 AM ^
the B12 is mostly made up of Ag schools and the BEast of small, private schools like GT or BC that don't always show up in these rankings.
the Pac10 has the best at the top in the CA schools, but falls off a cliff like you said.
the ACC is solid top to bottom save FSU.
November 29th, 2008 at 12:25 PM ^
Ga. Tech and BC are both in the ACC, and, according to US News and World Report's rankings for Undergrads, top 35 schools nationally. If you were to rank the schools from the Big 10 and ACC from top to bottom, it would go:
#8. Duke
#12. Northwestern
#23. Virginia
#26. Michigan
#28. Wake Forest
#30. North Carolina
#34. BC
#35. Georgia Tech
#35. Wisconsin
#40. Illinois
#47. Penn St.
#51. Miami
#53. Maryland
#56. Ohio State
#61. Clemson
#61. Minnesota
#66. Purdue
#66. Iowa
#71. Indiana
#71. Michigan State
#71. Virginia Tech
#83. North Carolina State
#102. Florida State
So, of the top half, 7 schools would be from the ACC, and 6 from the Big 10 (though 6 of the top 8 would be ACC schools). Really, the ACC is a superior conference, they just deal with Florida State.
FYI, if we're looking for Midwest-region public schools, Iowa St. would be the worst school in the Big 10 by about 12 spots. Missouri would be the worst by about 25. Kansas, Kansas St., Kentucky, Tennessee aren't even considered "tier one" schools. The only viable schools would be Notre Dame, who would be the 2nd best academic school in the conference, behind Northwestern, or Pitt, who would be middle of the pack.
November 29th, 2008 at 1:26 PM ^
The ACC does have a lot of great schools, and I guess you could consider it a better academic conference. The thing with the B10 is that the conference has always had an academic side and they aren't going to take a Florida State that would drag the whole conference down.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:37 AM ^
ND to the Big 10 will make too much sense not to happen. From Andy Staples:"The NBC contract and the BCS exemptions are great, but they're going to evaporate if 6-6 seasons are the norm. Joining the Big East would make more sense for recruiting; that conference has a wider recruiting footprint that would allow the Irish to play regular games in Tampa, Fla., Pittsburgh and Piscataway, N.J. It also would allow Notre Dame's other programs to stay in the same conference. But joining the Big Ten would make that conference the nation's most powerful, and it would allow the Irish to play Michigan, Michigan State and Purdue every year. It also would allow the conference to play a championship game, which may be a necessity now that Ohio State's consecutive BCS title game losses have harmed the league's reputation. Also, a switch to the Big Ten could help Notre Dame's already excellent men's basketball team by getting it out of the top-heavy Big East." http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/the_sweep/posts/27401-ten-things-notr…
November 29th, 2008 at 1:50 PM ^
from that one time, coach... when they let in OSU. and that other time when they let in MSU.
honestly, i prefer to include international rankings. i think there are two major ones, one out of china and one from europe. more data points. so if you include those, osu & msu drop off, but do does half the acc.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:49 PM ^
Of course, all of this may be made more complicated by the fact that the Big East is supposedly a few years from implosion. They have 16 basketball schools, but only 8 play DI football. The basketball schools have issues with the football schools and vice-versa. So if that league immolates we may be looking at 8 BCS schools looking for new homes.
December 1st, 2008 at 3:55 PM ^
The Big Ten must expand. Our season has been over for two weeks. USC plays UCLA in their big rivarly. The confrence championship games are this weekend for the other conferences. I think Notre Dame is the best option. Confrence alligns as follows.
North - Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Minnesota, Illinois, & Indiana.
South - Penn State, Notre Dame, Wisconsin, Iowa, Northwestern, & Purdue.
If not Notre Dame place whomever in the Notre Dame spot
First three teams in each division are a lock. Other three can be moved around. You would play your 6 division teams every year. 3 Non Conference Games and 3 teams from the other division.
I don't think this deminishes the Michigan V. Ohio State game any. They would still end up playing every year for the right to go to the Championship game. I don't see a big difference between this and Playing for the championship or as more often than not a share of the big ten championship.
December 1st, 2008 at 11:28 PM ^
Tulane is a pretty good fit. They're already better than Michigan at football since Matt Forte turned out better than Mike Hart and everyone would love to come to Louisiana to recruit. Why not?
December 2nd, 2008 at 3:23 PM ^
Call me crazy. But what if Central michigan wudda won the big ten this yr? bc they won it last 2 yrs right? thatd be 3 in a row, but they didnt win it this yr. But imagine if they won 4-5 macs in a row.. Maybe theyd b considered?
December 2nd, 2008 at 7:28 PM ^
ur punctuation and abbrvs make it hard 2 read.
But looking past that (and the fact they "wuddant won the big ten this yr"), your options for potential expansion aren't that poor of choices. Maryland doesn't get a ton of hype, but I'm fairly certain they would actually fit in the Big10 fairly well academically and be a net positive in football and basketball. But again, I'm not sure they would be a high priority of the Big10, I think they are looking for high profile or New York footprints instead of Baltimore.
December 2nd, 2008 at 7:53 PM ^
Maryland is practically in DC, FWIW. Those ACC basketball rivalries will ensure that never happens.
December 2nd, 2008 at 3:26 PM ^
Id go with either Pitt, ND(wont happen), Missouri, Maryland, boston college, iowa state or cinncinati.
December 2nd, 2008 at 8:41 PM ^
If academics are a factor, Missouri, Iowa St., and Cincy are non-starters, as the best of them (Missouri) is ranked roughly 30 spots lower than the Big 10's worst school.
Missouri and and Iowa St. aren't in the top 100 achools academically, and Cincinatti isn't even ranked by US News and World Report.
I just can't see BC or Maryland (both qualify academically) leaving the ACC. Pitt and ND are the only ones I can really envision.
December 2nd, 2008 at 8:49 PM ^
I think Missouri would still be in play. But I think of the Big East schools, Syracuse is most likely. People don't realize it, but when they're good people in NYC and Buffalo take notice.
December 2nd, 2008 at 8:55 PM ^
I don't know - Missouri is a worse school than Florida State.
December 3rd, 2008 at 2:24 AM ^
Because:
-It Renew the Pitt-PSU rivalry, which is/was a good one
-Already within the geographic regio
-Pitt is academically solid.
If not pitt, then i say UChicago rebuilds their football program to D1-A status and rejoins.
December 3rd, 2008 at 4:03 AM ^
Both of those moves provide nothing in the way of new markets. The Pittsburgh market is pretty well served by Penn State... and Chicago is a regional mecca and has alums and fans from all 11 schools.
December 4th, 2008 at 6:13 PM ^
I think he was 1000% serious about UChicago building up their football program...
December 5th, 2008 at 11:14 AM ^
I was 3000% serious.
December 4th, 2008 at 6:58 PM ^
Not true about Pittsburgh. Both Pitt and WVU are more popular in Pittsburgh than Penn State. There are a lot of Penn State alums in Pittsburgh, but there's a pretty simple rule that if you're from Pittsburgh and you didn't go to Penn State, you're a Pitt fan. Believe it or not the Pitt-Penn State rivalry is still huge. WVU is so popular because, well, most of West Virginia is closer to Pittsburgh than Penn State is. Morgantown is only about an hour from downtown Pittsburgh.
December 4th, 2008 at 7:00 PM ^
Honestly, while I assume you have more experience having lived there, I always heard that Pitt could never really compete with the Steelers in terms of popularity.
December 4th, 2008 at 7:31 PM ^
That is affirmative. Nothing in Pittsburgh competes with the Steelers in terms of popularity. I was just talking about the popularity at the college level.
December 4th, 2008 at 7:33 PM ^
I've also heard from some close friends that the NFL would never work in Columbus because no team could ever compete with OSU.
December 4th, 2008 at 7:35 PM ^
Not sure what you're getting at w/r/t the NFL in Columbus...
December 4th, 2008 at 7:38 PM ^
I was just saying maybe the lack of interest comparatively would hurt Pitt.
December 4th, 2008 at 7:58 PM ^
I agree. I don't think Pitt would be a fit for the Big 10. I was just commenting on the Penn State factor. The biggest problem with Pitt as a potential Big 10 candidate to me is that no one goes to their games. Pitt is definitely popular, but no one goes to the games. The widely held belief is that has to do with the fact that the stadium isn't on campus anymore. It's kind of a weak excuse, but it makes sense because Pitt is a very urban campus and well no one wants to take a shuttle bus to the games (which is Pitt's solution).
December 4th, 2008 at 8:12 PM ^
I think if they could build a stadium on campus it would be wonderful. The Pitt campus and the Cathedral of Learning are amazing.
Maybe Carnegie-Melon could co-fund a stadium and move up from D-III?
December 4th, 2008 at 9:15 PM ^
Highly unlikely. It was debated big time before Heinz Field was built when they decided to raze Pitt Stadium (which is where the basketball arena and dorms are now located). There really isn't any available land in that part of town and the spot where Gesling Stadium (CMU's stadium) is located is too small. It really is a shame.
December 4th, 2008 at 5:13 PM ^
Just stupid how ND and NBC have that contract, if it wasn't for that.. ND wud join the big 10 asap.. anyone know when that contracts up?
December 4th, 2008 at 5:41 PM ^
They have a deal through 2015. I don't think either side is looking to end it though. No matter how mediocre Notre Dame has been, they'll always attract viewers, IMO.
December 4th, 2008 at 6:17 PM ^
I don't know about asap. They're aligned with the Big East in most other sports.
December 5th, 2008 at 12:10 PM ^
They wud, they wud.
December 4th, 2008 at 6:24 PM ^
Syracuse works better for creating divisions.
EAST:
Syracuse, PSU, OSU, UM, MSU, Indiana
WEST:
Purdue, Illinois, Northwestern, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota
or
NORTH:
SU, UM, MSU, UW, Minn, NU
SOUTH:
OSU, PSU, IU, PU, UI, UI
December 4th, 2008 at 6:43 PM ^
I heard rutgers, if u search on internet theyre most likely to be, if not ND. Articles going back in august of 07, how they were gonna get a team in then but didnt. Maybe this yr they will, i think theyll get a big east team.
Rutgers? Louisville?
December 4th, 2008 at 6:48 PM ^
Rutgers was contingent on them being good. And they failed. Syracuse and Rutgers share the New York market... when one is good, people turn in to watch that one. It just happens Rutgers was good most recently.
December 5th, 2008 at 10:29 AM ^
With regard to academics, part of the problem is that it means different things to different people (and rankings). All of the Big 10 schools are major research schools, have academic ties to each other (through the Committee on Institutional Cooperation) and are members of the Association of American Universities. Part of the reason for the conferences reputation is the combination of research & the reputation of various graduate & professional programs. (In this particular regard, the ACC, Big East or other major conferences don't really compare.) Unfortunately, excellence in research and/or graduate work doesn't necessarily translate into great undergraduate education.
Personally, I hope Notre Dame doesn't join. Their main appeal is their national fan base/tv audience. I think if they join a conference for football (and stop playing a national schedule) they will lose some of what makes them special & their popularity will decline. They don't add new regional markets, nor do they fit academically. (They are a strong academic school, but the emphasis in on undergraduate education, not research).
Right now the best fits (geographic proximity, adding new media markets, academic compatibility) are Rutgers, Missouri, Nebraska and Syracuse. Iowa Stat & Pitt would work, but don't really add new markets.
Over the longer term, if Canadian Universities do join the NCAA and move up to Division I, the University of Toronto is an interesting possibility.
December 5th, 2008 at 10:52 AM ^
Pitt definitely WOULD add a new media market. Pittsburgh is not a Big Ten town; it's a Big East town. By and large the only people in Pittsburgh that are Penn State fans and pay any attention at all to Penn State are people that went to Penn State. Sports talk radio, sports on television, and the cable sports shows almost exclusively talk about Pitt.
December 5th, 2008 at 1:04 PM ^
I don't doubt that the Big 10 isn't that popular in Pittsburgh, but what I was referring to was more about things like Television/Cable broadcasting rights.
I don't really know, but would adding Pitt expand the footprint of the Big Ten Network, or increase the dollar value of the current television packages? My guess is that it would, but less than Missouri (adding Kansas City and (sort of) St. Louis, Rutgers (NY/NJ), or Syracuse (upstate NY)). Pitt is a natural fit for the conference, but it would have been easier for them to have joined at the same time as Penn State....
December 5th, 2008 at 10:43 AM ^
already plays half the B10. the issue w/ them is that they would have to schedule teams like BC, Stanford and Navy at home more often than not. right now, they are willing to travel to philly and stanford every other year (they can get teams to come into SB on 1 & dones, etc). but in a conf, that would mean 5-6 home games a year (on avg) instead of 7-8. *that's* why they won't join a conf: they will indirectly have to abandon their traditional games due to ticket rev. issues within the current climate of DIA FB.