OT: Talking Unsolved Legends / Events Wednesday. JFK Assassanation
Happy Hump Day. I hope everyone is having a good week. Special shoutout to all who gave me ideas for San Diego. I spent the evening at Balboa Park and am enjoying the Prado.
This week let’s discuss JFK assassination. I have been to Dealey Plaza and have done quite a bit of research on this one. Technically this is not “Unsolved”, but many of you have requested this and I feel like this will help everyone get through the day when you wake up and see this.
I personally believe Oswald was the lone gunman. I am 50/50 on whether or not he was hired to do the job. He was a wack job, but who knows. Jack Ruby offing Oswald makes me think he was cleaning things up.
What do all of you think? Lone gunman? Was he paid or just crazy? Do you have a wild conspiracy theory regarding this event?
If you want to know what life would be like had this event never happened... just watch 11/22/63.
Have a good rest of the week, a couple short meetings tomorrow then off to more touristy stuff.
Let the wormholes begin...
There had to be another, behind the bushes on the gravelly road. Otherwise, his head would have not gone back and to the left.
One of the greatest moments in the history of television.
They did this kind of thing all the time, but unless you are a classic film buff most of it went quietly by.
That’s one magic loogie.
Nice game, pretty boy.
The spit stopped mid-air & made a 90 degree turn.
Kennedy’s route was published in the Dallas times. I have a hard time believing it was a lone wolf
Bullets done make turns and end up on gurneys in almost pristine condition after being fired and striking bone.
The “Magic” bullet didn’t make any turns.
I watched a documentary on it (one of the many) and I'm going with the simple solution that he was the lone gunman and there is a possibility that one of the secret service accidentally discharged his gun.
Oswald's death afterwards is really strange. It could be that people helped convince him, or they shot him to add chaos to a situation and install doubt that people still talk about until this day.
Curious why you think someone would shoot Oswald to add chaos to the situation?
Not sure why else the mob would have killed him other than to add chaos. Look at us still debating this 50 years later. Could be that he was hired by him. I just think the act off killing him was Oswald alone with the possible second shot from the SS on accident.
Yep, I saw that one as well. Guy's name was George Hickey (the Secret Service agent). The book "Mortal Error" summarizes it all pretty well. Hard to say, but some compelling stuff.
I heard that Elvis is still alive. Discuss.
I saw him in “Home Alone”.
I remember when I was a kid someone told me Elvis died because he was flushed down a toilet.
He is, he's hanging out with Bigfoot!
My favorite conspiracy theory is that Oswald fired the first shot, and in the ensuing confusion, the Secret Service officer in the motorcade behind JFK accidentally fired his gun, creating the fatal shot.
It would also explain why there have been no leaks, no foreign government involvement, etc but still have "inconsistencies" in the facts.
EDIT: forgot the fact several Secret Service agents were up drinking the night before, allegedly until 4 or 5 in the morning.
Whoops, should have read down, yes, I agree, this seems to have the most consistency with stories from the day.
I believe that the CIA helped orchestrate the Kennedy assassination.
I don't know why I believe this. It just makes sense to me
I think DB Cooper killed Bigfoot.
Bigfoot is dead???
But what about Keith Jackson?
I believe the operating room doctors and nurses who described a bullet exit wound at the REAR of Kennedy's head, the bullet traveling in the direction of Lee Harvey Oswald who was located behind Kennedy.
James Douglass wrote the book that many consider to be the finest on the topic of the Kennedy assassination.
"In JFK and the Unspeakable Jim Douglass has distilled all the best available research into a very well-documented and convincing portrait of President Kennedy's transforming turn to peace, at the cost of his life. Personally, it has made a very big impact on me. After reading it in Dallas, I was moved for the first time to visit Dealey Plaza. I urge all Americans to read this book and come to their own conclusions about why he died and why -- after fifty years -- it still matters.” -- Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.
https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Unspeakable-Why-Died-Matters-ebook/dp/B005Q07DKY
Yes, standing in Dealey Plaza is very likely to change your opinion on everything, and I seriously mean everything. For starters, it is so much smaller than you would reasonably expect, having seen the video over and over and over again. Kennedy was driven pretty much directly at the picket fence which probably wasn't 40 yards and maybe not even 30 yards away when he was hit. It really wouldn't even have taken a highly skilled shooter, just a cool headed one. The multiple escape paths out of there were so clean, direct and simple.
All kinds of people hated Kennedy's guts, The Outfit, Cubans, CIA, LBJ, every last one of them demonstrably capable of murder. All of them, except maybe the Cubans from a deep culture of keeping your mouth shut.
My favorite part of the whole story is George Bush the 1st can't remember where the hell he was that morning. Everybody I know who was cognizant of being alive knows where they were that morning. I was sitting next to the window in Luther Klenke's 5th grade class. Truth be told, I was completely unconcerned, much less so now.
so maybe GHWB was the second shooter?
Bush was in Dallas.
Working for the CIA
I say Oswald shot Kennedy. For all those who do not......prove it.
I do not believe Oswald shot Kennedy. Prove he did.
This is not an unsolved case.
The Warren Commission was a sham. Prove it wasn't.
I mean, we could play this game all day!
I think the Jack Ruby portion of the story is a glaring red flag that something more than a single whacko was involved in the planning.
Also, I recognize that this may sound like Oliver Stone, but the Russian involvement in Cuba was very deep at this time. Considering USA's formal beef with Castro, the ease with which the USSR could have brought any operatives they wished that close to the USA and Oswald's known Russian dabbling, it all seems too easy to put together for it to be dismissed out of hand. It also makes perfect sense to wrap that entire thread up in plausible deniability. So, at this point I just assume that Russia/Cuba was pretty significantly involved.
The guys who were truly pissed at Kennedy, were the CIA, Chicago mafia and cubans who all got hung out to dry when Kennedy cancelled air support right before and in the middle of the Bay of Pigs invasion, and then ran away from the plan when it all went south.
The Outfit as the Chicago branch of the mafia liked to call themselves had connections in Cuba by virtue of their gambling interests and connections to Battista. They had been called upon to sell and coordinate the adventure to the cubans and had made promises about support from Kennedy which subsequently didn't come.
Kennedy chickened out on promised air support which was supposed to take out the Cuban Air Force. The entire "harebrained scheme", to quote Richard Helms, collapsed into a huge embarrassment for everybody. Things actually went downhill from there with the poisoned cigars and other goofy shit dreamed up between the remaining, butt hurt gaggle of thugs that didn't make the trip. They did do a professional job on Kennedy though. Of course, they finally brought in a true pro, LBJ.
Did you read Ultimate Sacrifice? It’s a 1287 page book about the Kennedy assassination that touches on many of these points. The authors read all of the declassified materials and make a strong case for the mob’s involvement and ultimate responsibility for the killing.
Yes, but there is beau coup stuff out there. Probably the place to start is the Warren Commission report. Which is wildly held to be politically motivated bullshit. Then go read the House Select Committee on Assassinations report which got unfunded pretty quickly after concluding that there were at least 4 shots fired and probably 7 from multiple locations.
With regards to the Warren Commission, our boy Gerald Ford played an interesting role concerning the point of entry of the bullet that struck Kennedy in the back and supposedly went on to wound Connolly. Along with some damning photos, the following piece makes the changes Ford lobbied for in the report, seem ... inconsistent with reality and odd, particularly from a guy with a rock solid reputation for being a straight shooter, so to speak.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/JFK/ford.html
The murder of Officer Tibbets being pinned on Oswald (as Oswald as walking to the movie theater) is another problem with the official story.
I'm convinced that Oswald did shoot JKF, but that he was a patsy. Ruby murdering him proves this to me.
Tippit
Tibbets is the mashup of Tippet and Sidney Poitier's chatacter, Mr. Tibbs.
An interesting side story to the assassination is the article written by former president Harry S. Truman and published by the Washington Post on December 22, 1963, exactly one month after the assassination. Truman was the president who signed into law the legislation that created the CIA. Is this an attempt at CYA?
"Limit CIA Role to Intelligence" by Harry S. Truman
" INDEPENDENCE, MO., Dec. 21—1 think it has become necessary to take another look at the purpose and operations of our Central Intelligence Agency— CIA. At least, I would like to submit here the original reason why I thought it necessary to organize this Agency during my Administration, what I expected it to do and how it was to operate as an arm of the President.
...
Therefore, I decided to set up a special organization charged with the collection of all intelligence reports from every available source, and to have those reports reach me as President without department "treatment" or interpretations.
...
For some time I have been disturbed by the way CIA has been diverted from its original assignment. It has become an operational and at times a policy-making arm of the Government. This has led to trouble and may have compounded our difficulties in several explosive areas.
...
We have grown up as a nation, respected for our free institutions and for our ability to maintain a free and open society. There is something about the way the CIA has been functioning that is casting a shadow over our historic position and I feel that we need to correct it. "
Read Case Closed by Gerald Posner. Oswald did it. He was filled with grandiose delusions. He killed Tippett because the poor guy stopped him. Ruby shot Oswald spur of the moment.
Sometimes assholes just get lucky; there was no grand conspiracy.
I thought Bugliosi's book made a better case for the lone gunman theory. I thought Posner was dishonest in his book and his reliance on the computer models undermined his conclusions.
I think you have to look at the assassination in greater context. What has happened since? One thing I always find interesting in these discussions is the Cuba/Russia question. To blame Cuba/Russia is counter-intuitive. The knock on Kennedy was that he was soft on communism. Bay of Pigs, cutting a deal during the Cuban Missile Crisis. So who has more incentive to assassinate, communists or hawks within our own government?
I also think that the Robert Kennedy assassination tends to point towards conspiracy regarding JFK. The RFK assassination is easier to question because the forensics aren't even close. Forensics say he was shot at basically contact range behind his ear. The shooter was never closer than 18 inches and was always in front of him.
For me there is too much to question. I don't believe the lone gunman theory.
I don't think the "JFK was soft on communism" meme holds water. He stared down the Russians over the Cuban Missile Crisis and escalated US troop presence in Vietnam (certainly not to the extent that LBJ did but troop presence did increase.....oh wait "advisor" presence). Containment was also a big part of his policy during his time in the Senate and his Presidency. And while the Bay of Pigs was a disaster it's entire goal was to remove Fidel Castro in Cuba because he was a communist.
But I do agree that Oswald likely didn't act alone - him being taken out by Ruby seems like a way to ensure dead men tell no tales....
I’m not suggesting he was or wasn’t soft. My understanding is that the hawks within our government thought he was soft. I’m not sure I have ever heard the Russian perspective on this, but I suspect that they thought they would be better off with JFK as President rather than an unknown replacement. It just seems unlikely to me that the Russians would be incentivized to go after him. Unless you believe they they just wanted to create chaos within the US.
Guess I misinterpreted the sentence where you said "the knock on Kennedy was that he was soft on communism". When have the Russians ever tried to create chaos or discord in the US? /s
I think it is unlikely that the Soviets were DIRECTLY involved but I wouldn't be surprised if the truth were that they encouraged others to do it.
Yeah, I see that is unclear now. I should have said that the perception to some, including people within the government, was that he was soft on communism. His actual record in that regard certainly would be subject to debate.
According to the James Douglass book:
The release of archived documents shows that it was very much Kennedy and Khruschev acting as a team against their own militaries who were pushing for confrontation. Khruschev helped Kennedy out by backing off on Cuba. Kennedy reciprocated by pulling our missiles out of Turkey. A similar set of quid pro quo actions were taken to resolve a standoff in Berlin.
Regarding Vietnam, Kennedy was getting us out. On Cuba, very much a warming of relations--the Bay of Pigs was a CIA operation carried over from Eisenhower that Kennedy did not provide military support for. Kennedy's American University speech clearly laid out a vision of peace that was anathema to the military/intelligence complex.
when i think of JFK's death, i always think of this poem written by a girl that mgoblogger don might know, a girl from grosse pointe. it was written from the perspective of JFK, jr, who was maybe 3 at the time. i was too young to be aware of the shooting, but what a terrible thing on a personal and national level.
Six white horses came today
to take my Daddy far away.
Mommy said I must be good
and stand as big as Daddy would.
And now I'm big so I won't cry
when I see my Daddy wave goodbye,
'cause Daddy is my special friend
he always comes back soon again.
I cannot wave, I don't see why,
there's just a black box moving by.
But Mommy says I should be still,
I'm a big boy now, and so I will.
I hear some drums, they're awful loud,
but Mommy is sad and so's the crowd.
And everybody's dressed in black,
but Daddy soon will hurry back.
We're going to take a walk to mass
then maybe I'll see my Daddy pass.
I wonder why we're only three,
he always comes to church with me.
Two men are talking, I can see,
they said they're very proud of me.
They said my Daddy's in that box,
that black one with six gold locks.
I have on a big boy's suit
and now it's my turn to salute.
I do it just like big boys do,
because I have to be one too.
They're going to stop, and then just leave,
but in that box, how can he breathe?
Though I do not understand,
there's Mommy here to hold my hand.
He's going to leave and not come home!
We just can't leave him here alone.
I want to hear him laugh and say,
"John-John, come here so we can play."
I don't see Daddy anywhere,
I want to cry and I don't care.
He's in the ground, he cannot be,
he should be right here holding me.
But Mommy says I must be good,
so I'll stand as Daddy would.
It was the comedian
Who watches the watchmen