OT: Negotiating a job offer
After years of working at non-profits and local government I decided to look at private companies, make a jump if something interesting is presented. I have two offers right now, potentially three. Excuse my ignorance but I think there are folks on this board who have been through this situation a number of times. If it helps job titles are Senior Data Analyst and Data Scientist.
Should you always ask for more money? Are recruiters expecting a counter offer?
I have two little ones at home, it would be great to work four ten hour days and spend one day at home with them. Should I ask for this in lieu of more money or just ask for both?
How do you leverage one offer against another? I feel uncomfortable doing this but I’ve heard this is the thing to do when you have the opportunity.
I’d like to negotiate the start date and give myself a week off to chill. Is putting off the start date four weeks a legitimate ask?
I feel like I know the answers to these questions but I'm nervous about commiting to a response. Any help is appreciated.
I've heard that it's helpful to display it to the hiring manager during salary negotiations. If it's a man he'll feel inadequate and accept whatever conditions you're presenting. If it's a woman, she'll admire your confidence and also make a better offer.
Or you'll go to jail. One of those.
You won the thread.
for Senior Data Analysts to have large penises. Not so much with Data Scientists
Sadly, your wise advice would not work for me. :(
But it reminds me of a Deep thought by JH: When you go in for a job interview, I think a good thing to ask is if they ever press charges.
2 caveats: (1) don't get greedy, (2) don't negotiate at all if it's an entry-level position. You're still unproven.
That said: I would advise caution in asking for a FOUR-week delay on the starting date (as I'm reading it, you're looking to take 4 weeks off beyond jobs?).
The primary reason a business is looking to hire you is because they have a need. A good company will recognize you need time to wrap things up at the old job --- and many will recognize a person's desire to have "a chill period" beyond jobs. But 4 weeks is getting at the boundary of pushing it.
My advice is this - do not lie to your new employer about how much notice you are giving your old one. I would expect them to seriously consider firing you if they find out that you lied to them to get a week off. People understand there will be some boasting in the interview, but not out right dishonesty about the date you quit the last job. Maybe they never find out. However, you are risking being out of both jobs becuase you wanted an unpaid week off. Remember, as a new hire they haven't invested much in you and they have a stack of current resumes on hand.
(For context, I am an employer-side labor and employment attorney.)
I was going to post this after seeing this thread for the first time this morning, but you beat me to it. Classic scene. I follow SV religiously.
On a side note, timely thread. I'm going to ask my boss for a larger contribution to expenses today. I pay for all of my health insurance for me and my family, to the tune of $1100/month. I work for a German tech semi-start up. (we are going on 8 years in business, but the company is just starting to kick in with revenues.)
I make a decent base and commission as the guy who runs sales for North and South America, but I work as a 1099 by choice because of retirement and tax benefits (I have my own company that pays me as an employee). What I don't really get is health or dental and stock options. Being German, the company doesn't really get the whole employer contributes most of the insurance for its employees.
I bring in a lot of business for the company so I'm hoping I have a leg to stand on, and my boss is a good guy who likes me.
Rule #1 as a business owner: Treat your sales guys/girls well.
You walk right into your potential bosses office and say:
"Dick (I assume his name is Dick), you can take this low-ball offer and shove it up your fat white ass. I want 25% more, your parking spot, and a per diem for lunch. Oh, and nobody works in this town without a signing bonus, fatty. Now move it Dick, MOVE IT!"
In seriousness, I am a Research Director, but have held titles like Research Scientist and Data Scientist, and anyone who gives you advice on this without knowing WAY more of the context is being irresponisble...
I agree (with the serious part). I don't see anything wrong with explaining that you put in long hours on your current position and would like to take a month for family time before committing to the new company. Honesty actually works in some cases.
You should do research to find out what the market salary range for the position you're offered is, and then you should shoot for being near the top of that range (carefully and tactfully, though). They may ask you how much you want. When they ask, tell them you want X (X being near the top of the range). Or they may not ask and just make an offer. Then if that offer isn't high enough, just communicate that you think the range is X to X and you deserve to be at the higher end due to how awesome you are.
You need to know your market value. Using salary.com can give a good idea of what the range is, with and without bonuses. You can run this through the recruiter if you don't want to be the one to ask. That is what they should be there for.
Sometimes you can get 4 weeks if you have a good reason. Most places want you as soon as possible, but I know we are having a hard time getting people, so they are accepting certain demands like this to get good people in.
The 10-4 work week probably should have been asked in an interview to see what flexibility the jobs offer in regards to work schedules. Usually either a company does this or doesn't. I'm guessing that if they didn't bring it up, they don't offer it, as it's usually seen as a perk, but I could be wrong.
Good luck, as a creature of habit, job changes always are a risk.
I would really evaluate the offer first. You are probably a valuable candidate to the company, but you need to be objective about your value. If your offer seems fair and is better than what you currently have, I would cool it on seeking much more, although if you need any particular concessions (like needing slight modifications to your schedule) this is the time to ask for it. If one of the offers is marginally better than the other, but you would rather work for the company offering less, then you may be able to use the other offer as a benchmark for what is fair and ask for that from your preferred employer.
The four week think is probably fine. Just say you have some things you need to finish up at your old job. It will make you look that much more conscientious.
Double up!!!
To answer the leverage question, just from my experience, it's pretty simple: let the other potential employers know what your best offer is. Give them a chance to beat it. Tell the truth, but let them know how much it would take to get you. They won't think less of you if you don't counter, but if you have multiple offers there's no reason not to aggressively counter.
Find out how flexible they are on the hours (ideally this came up in the interview, but they're usually happy to answer questions after the interview as well). Don't expect a 4-day week, though, if you are working 40 hours. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see that happening too often.
Oh my, yes, get that start date pushed back as far as you (and your new employer) can handle. You don't get 4-week vacations too often in most occupations. Again, this is probably something that came up during the interview: "when can you start?" If you want to change your answer, you should probably approach the employer about this ASAP, and find out what their needs are. You can certainly get 2 weeks by telling them you have to give your current employer notice.
Don't counter right away, diplomatically indicate that you are currently looking at multiple offers, i.e "Thanks for the opportunity, I am currently looking at a few options and ave a tough decision to make."
Always preface these communications with some form of "I'm really excted about the offer/opportunity, but I have some questions about options for start date, salary level, flex hours at your company and I want to make sure I have all the information I need while making a decision."
After receiving all the information/responses on those points to compare the offers, you respond to each with some form of "I'm really excited to join, but I'm having a touch time because of XYZ", what you want to do is basically give them the impression that you really like them better, but something in the other offer is making you unable to choose them. At this point they can counter or ask what they can do to make your decision easier and you can work through which items are flexible for them to revise/offer. If they don't, you can still accept under the guise of "Yes, the other offer had PDQ, but I really liked your company and will accept."
The Daily Circle Jerk thread!!!
Gets popcorn, and waits for the online dick measuring contest that's about to ensue!
All I know is that you do NOT want to pronounce the name of the hiring manager incorrectly.
One question - are all resumes submitted through online portals directed straight to the server's trash bin?
I've gotten like 1 or 2 interviews from online portals. No job offers. Every interview that led to a job offer has been through personal/professional connection or a recruiter.
Totally random question - what are the most and least competitive career fields these days? (i.e. which are hardest to find and which spots are you bombarded with resumes) I ask because I'm an attorney and I've heard of employers getting 500+ resumes for openings that aren't super specialized.
From the perspective of a person who is in a perpetual hiring mode - almost every bullet on an offer letter is negotiable. Rarely do we make a comp offer that cannot be raised without issue. Start date is also negotiable, but keep in mind that the post is likely for immediate work, so delaying hurts your overall profile. For us, a 4 day work week is a non-starter for new hires. Once they have proven themselves capable of handling it on a trial basis, it becomes an option.
Overall, the more you try to negotiate, the more other candidates appear as viable options, so just be sure you are the right/best person. We have turned people down and gone with a second choice at times due to negotiation difficulties. Hope this helps!
Hi Denver,
I've been in executive search for over 10 years. Here are my thoughts:
Presenting a counteroffer is a common practice and if you feel like your market value is higher then the offer presented you can counter. When you do, make sure you give a solid business reason for wanting more money other then "I want more money."
I dont think leveraging one offer against another is as common as people say it is. Its also not well recieved by your prespective new empolyers.
You can ask for any start date you want. Most companies will be fine with whatever you want. They are just happy you said yes.
Let me know if you have any other questions.
Cheers!
Obviously you know more about this than I do, but that wasn't my experience the last time I went through this.
I was in OP's position a few years ago. One employer offered me ($x). The other offered me ($x+8%). I thanked the first one, and told them that I would not be taking their offer because another firm had offered me ($x+8%). They asked if I would be willing to listen to a counter-offer, I told them "certainly." Later that day they called me with an offer of ($x+11%).
Obviously they didn't need to counter-offer, but in my case just telling the truth helped me out. I suppose I wasn't really trying to leverage anything at the time, but my intentions didn't matter--it still got me a few more percentage points in the end.
If you honestly have a better offer, what's wrong with being honest? If they decide to take it personally, well, take the better offer. Nothing to lose. And really, what better evidence could there be to justify a counter offer - "I know I'm worth at least X, because these guys offered to pay me that"!
Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad
As an employer I agree with this. We hired several positions in the last 6 months and one tried to leverage another offer, we were happy to let them take it if they wanted to go in that direction. Start date is an easy thing to provide flexibility on. Basically you don't know when you were going to be able to fill the position anyway so it's all gravy--unless you have another equally qualified candidate that can start and you really need to fill the position. It also doesn't lock you into a poor business decision such as starting salary which kind of locks you in to future trends not only for the company but for the employee.
Work from home is a tricky one, personally I would definitely not be open to a 4 day work week. Most jobs especially at that level are expecting a 50 hour work week minimum anyway cutting to 4 is kind of a ridiculous ask unless that's already standard practice at the company. But in my opinion there is no justification whatsoever for a "senior" anything to only be working 4 days.
Maybe it's personal experience, but I've not had problems with reasonable counter-offers based on existing offers. If the first company is offended that you are saying company B is willing to pay you 5% more, then so be it, but they shouldn't be offended. The job market defines labor based on how much someone is willing to spend for it, and so the market rate is what those offers come to. If someone is outside that band that's their fault, but it might also mean the first company is underestimating the current job market.
Your first negotaation is your most important, all future earnings are based off of it. As long as you don't go in crazy high of course you should negotiate. Do some research on what the salary ranges of those positions are so you aren't asking for anything crazy. If you have two job offers you should 100% tell the lower offer what the other offer is. Say I would prefer to work in this position but the difference in money makes it difficult, is there anything you can do? Most places have salary ranges, there is almost always room to negotiate up. Asking for a month between when you accept the job and when you start isn't crazy but don't push back if they say no.
I wouldn't expect to get a 4 day work week but you can do other things, you can get 4 days in the office, one work at home day.
Caveat, I'm 25 and have only had the chance to negotaite once (did americorps, still in non-profits) I had 3 job offers. The place I'm at only raised my offer $5,000 when I told them the truth but hey I would have accepted the job without that increase and its 5k I wouldn't have plus the increase it led to in my 401k match for the year and the base for any raise I might get.
"Your first negotaation is your most important, all future earnings are based off of it."
In most companies, especially in competitive fields, this isn't really the case. The best performers will tend to rise to the top of the pay scale regardless of where they start. At bonus / salary adjustment time, they can see who is making what, who's overpaid relative to their peers, and who's underpaid. At most companies, the high-performing, underpaid people will get the biggest bump, to try to bring them in line with their peers. It's not altruism -- it's the knowledge that they're the company's most vulnerable assets in terms of being poached by the competition. Yes, it will affect the first year or two, but how well you do your job is much more important than where you start on the salary chart.
I'm a big fan of the "if you can do X, Y, and Z, I'll sign today" approach,* because it is an indication of good faith on the candidate's part. Nobody likes to be used, and if you simply ask for a better offer without giving any assurances, the hiring manager may well be concerned that the candidate's interest is less than sincere and that any response would just be used as leverage against a competing firm.
I don't see a one-month-out start date to be a particular issue. If people seem concerned, I'd say something like this: "I need to give my current employer three weeks' notice, and then I'd like to take a week to recharge my batteries, so to speak. After all, I understand that I won't have any vacation accrued for a while." Having said that, two weeks' notice to your current employer is standard in most industries, so you may be asking for one week more than you need.
Regardless, OP, good luck!
* Off-topic, but this works pretty well in other negotations as well. For example, it's a great approach for purchasing a car. It's so good, in fact, that car salesmen will actually try to push you into it: "What would it take to get you into this car today?" The difference, of course, is that the salesman is trying to get the client to make a snap decision. As the purchaser, you presumably wouldn't make a committable offer until you had already done your homework and decided which vehicle you wanted to purchase.
Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad
we'll all wait with baited breath for when you get out of high school, go to college and eventually move out of your mom's basement.
Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad
Also, from a cynical point of view (having been on both sides) the person you are negotiating with is likely really fucking busy, hates hiring, and just wants it to be over. This makes it very unlikely that they pull the offer and if all its going to take to hire you is $5,000 of someone else's money, I am guessing they'd push for that.
Also definitely mention the other offers. It makes you look good and that they could lose you. It also is a subtle reinforcement of your future boss's decision to offer you (i.e., other people see a lot in this person as well).
Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad
Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad
If the person your negotiating with is a woman, call her toots a lot. They love it.