OT: Negotiating a job offer

Submitted by AA2Denver on

After years of working at non-profits and local government I decided to look at private companies, make a jump if something interesting is presented. I have two offers right now, potentially three. Excuse my ignorance but I think there are folks on this board who have been through this situation a number of times. If it helps job titles are Senior Data Analyst  and Data Scientist. 

Should you always ask for more money? Are recruiters expecting a counter offer?

I have two little ones at home, it would be great to work four ten hour days and spend one day at home with them. Should I ask for this in lieu of more money or just ask for both?

How do you leverage one offer against another? I feel uncomfortable doing this but I’ve heard this is the thing to do when you have the opportunity.

I’d like to negotiate the start date and give myself a week off to chill. Is putting off the start date four weeks a legitimate ask?

I feel like I know the answers to these questions but I'm nervous about commiting to a response. Any help is appreciated.

 

Stephen Y

May 25th, 2016 at 1:23 PM ^

I always heard that you should expect at least a 10% or $10k bump (whichever is higher) from your previous role. Also try to factor in any non-vested 401k money that you'd be leaving on the table and try to recoup that as a signing bonus.

The Mad Hatter

May 25th, 2016 at 1:25 PM ^

I've heard that it's helpful to display it to the hiring manager during salary negotiations.  If it's a man he'll feel inadequate and accept whatever conditions you're presenting.  If it's a woman, she'll admire your confidence and also make a better offer.

Or you'll go to jail.  One of those.

Truthbtold

May 25th, 2016 at 2:26 PM ^

No secret formula, no rules to follow. It's as simple as you just asking for what your talent and experience warrants. Keep in mind tho, as long as its reasonable, now is your best chance to get what you want.

NittanyFan

May 25th, 2016 at 1:37 PM ^

2 caveats: (1) don't get greedy, (2) don't negotiate at all if it's an entry-level position.  You're still unproven.

That said: I would advise caution in asking for a FOUR-week delay on the starting date (as I'm reading it, you're looking to take 4 weeks off beyond jobs?).  

The primary reason a business is looking to hire you is because they have a need.  A good company will recognize you need time to wrap things up at the old job --- and many will recognize a person's desire to have "a chill period" beyond jobs.  But 4 weeks is getting at the boundary of pushing it.

bluesalt

May 25th, 2016 at 1:52 PM ^

So presumably 3 weeks of notice for his current employer, and then a week of unpaid vacation.

I'd think the better way to do it is to say you want to give your current employer four weeks notice, and then use accrued vacation for your last week at your current job. That will prevent things such as health insurance from lapsing.

In my experience, saying you'd like to give a month's notice isn't a bad thing to a prospective employer, as t means they might get the same treatment when you leave.

As for salary negotiations, it depends how much of a bump from your current salary they're offering you from the get-go. It also depends if you have any way of determining what similar people at your new employer earn. They're not likely to want to give a new employee more than the midpoint of what their current employees are making. Word will get around and everyone will want a raise.

The FannMan

May 25th, 2016 at 2:07 PM ^

My advice is this - do not lie to your new employer about how much notice you are giving your old one.  I would expect them to seriously consider firing you if they find out that you lied to them to get a week off.  People understand there will be some boasting in the interview, but not out right dishonesty about the date you quit the last job.  Maybe they never find out.  However, you are risking being out of both jobs becuase you wanted an unpaid week off.  Remember, as a new hire they haven't invested much in you and they have a stack of current resumes on hand.  

(For context, I am an employer-side labor and employment attorney.)

SBayBlue

May 26th, 2016 at 10:38 AM ^

I was going to post this after seeing this thread for the first time this morning, but you beat me to it. Classic scene. I follow SV religiously.

On a side note, timely thread. I'm going to ask my boss for a larger contribution to expenses today. I pay for all of my health insurance for me and my family, to the tune of $1100/month. I work for a German tech semi-start up. (we are going on 8 years in business, but the company is just starting to kick in with revenues.)

I make a decent base and commission as the guy who runs sales for North and South America, but I work as a 1099 by choice because of retirement and tax benefits (I have my own company that pays me as an employee). What I don't really get is health or dental and stock options. Being German, the company doesn't really get the whole employer contributes most of the insurance for its employees. 

I bring in a lot of business for the company so I'm hoping I have a leg to stand on, and my boss is a good guy who likes me.

Rule #1 as a business owner: Treat your sales guys/girls well.

FauxMo

May 25th, 2016 at 1:29 PM ^

You walk right into your potential bosses office and say:

 

"Dick (I assume his name is Dick), you can take this low-ball offer and shove it up your fat white ass. I want 25% more, your parking spot, and a per diem for lunch. Oh, and nobody works in this town without a signing bonus, fatty. Now move it Dick, MOVE IT!"

 

In seriousness, I am a Research Director, but have held titles like Research Scientist and Data Scientist, and anyone who gives you advice on this without knowing WAY more of the context is being irresponisble...

Yo_Blue

May 25th, 2016 at 2:22 PM ^

I agree (with the serious part).  I don't see anything wrong with explaining that you put in long hours on your current position and would like to take a month for family time before committing to the new company.  Honesty actually works in some cases.

ypsituckyboy

May 25th, 2016 at 1:33 PM ^

You should do research to find out what the market salary range for the position you're offered is, and then you should shoot for being near the top of that range (carefully and tactfully, though). They may ask you how much you want. When they ask, tell them you want X (X being near the top of the range). Or they may not ask and just make an offer. Then if that offer isn't high enough, just communicate that you think the range is X to X and you deserve to be at the higher end due to how awesome you are.

Hail-Storm

May 25th, 2016 at 1:54 PM ^

You need to know your market value.  Using salary.com can give a good idea of what the range is, with and without bonuses. You can run this through the recruiter if you don't want to be the one to ask.  That is what they should be there for.  

Sometimes you can get 4 weeks if you have a good reason. Most places want you as soon as possible, but I know we are having a hard time getting people, so they are accepting certain demands like this to get good people in.

The 10-4 work week probably should have been asked in an interview to see what flexibility the jobs offer in regards to work schedules. Usually either a company does this or doesn't. I'm guessing that if they didn't bring it up, they don't offer it, as it's usually seen as a perk, but I could be wrong.

Good luck, as a creature of habit, job changes always are a risk. 

Shadowban

May 25th, 2016 at 1:32 PM ^

I would really evaluate the offer first.  You are probably a valuable candidate to the company, but you need to be objective about your value.  If your offer seems fair and is better than what you currently have, I would cool it on seeking much more, although if you need any particular concessions (like needing slight modifications to your schedule) this is the time to ask for it.  If one of the offers is marginally better than the other, but you would rather work for the company offering less, then you may be able to use the other offer as a benchmark for what is fair and ask for that from your preferred employer.  

 

The four week think is probably fine.  Just say you have some things you need to finish up at your old job.  It will make you look that much more conscientious.  

Alton

May 25th, 2016 at 1:36 PM ^

To answer the leverage question, just from my experience, it's pretty simple:  let the other potential employers know what your best offer is.  Give them a chance to beat it.  Tell the truth, but let them know how much it would take to get you.  They won't think less of you if you don't counter, but if you have multiple offers there's no reason not to aggressively counter.

Find out how flexible they are on the hours (ideally this came up in the interview, but they're usually happy to answer questions after  the interview as well).  Don't expect a 4-day week, though, if you are working 40 hours.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see that happening too often.

Oh my, yes, get that start date pushed back as far as you (and your new employer) can handle.  You don't get 4-week vacations too often in most occupations.  Again, this is probably something that came up during the interview:  "when can you start?"  If you want to change your answer, you should probably approach the employer about this ASAP, and find out what their needs are.  You can certainly get 2 weeks by telling them you have to give your current employer notice.

 

mtzlblk

May 25th, 2016 at 1:58 PM ^

Don't counter right away, diplomatically indicate that you are currently looking at multiple offers, i.e "Thanks for the opportunity, I am currently looking at a few options and ave a tough decision to make."

Always preface these communications with some form of "I'm really excted about the offer/opportunity, but I have some questions about options for start date, salary level, flex hours at your company and I want to make sure I have all the information I need while making a decision."

After receiving all the information/responses on those points to compare the offers, you respond to each with some form of "I'm really excited to join, but I'm having a touch time because of XYZ", what you want to do is basically give them the impression that you really like them better, but something in the other offer is making you unable to choose them. At this point they can counter or ask what they can do to make your decision easier and you can work through which items are flexible for them to revise/offer. If they don't, you can still accept under the guise of "Yes, the other offer had PDQ, but I really liked your company and will accept."

UMProud

May 25th, 2016 at 1:33 PM ^

Your value is your skills and experience. How much money will you make or save them.

The private sector is less forgiving than the public sector.

King Douche Ornery

May 25th, 2016 at 1:34 PM ^

The Daily Circle Jerk thread!!!

 

Gets popcorn, and waits for the online dick measuring contest that's about to ensue!

caguab

May 25th, 2016 at 1:36 PM ^

My thoughts: a) don't ask for flexible work arrangements until you've been at least 1 year with the company and understand their culture b) regarding the salary, you need to have an accurate idea of what you're worth. If your two offers are nearly identical, my guess is that it will be tough to get more money than 1-2%. If there is larger difference, like 5-10% difference between the offers, then you're salary range may be quite variable and you may have some room to negotiate. Reason being is that for some positions, the salary range is quite fixed because employers have a good sense of the market for that position. Others, the demand is greater and thus the market is in flux, so it's difficult to nail down the salary without some negotiation.

m1817

May 25th, 2016 at 6:03 PM ^

You are transitioning from non-profits or local govt employers.
 
You want to take a negotiate a start date that would give you time off to chill.
 
You want a four ten work week that would allow you to spend time with your little ones.
 
You want more money than the potential employer has currently offered you.
 
You must want Hugh Freeze's job.

Bigku22

May 25th, 2016 at 1:37 PM ^

I've worked in HR and recruiting for 5 years with larger companies. In most cases if your position is A) not entry level/easily fillable B) somewhat specialized in anyway (yours sounds like it is) a reasonable counter offer will almost always be accepted. Companies/hiring leaders don't want to go through the whole hiring process again (screening, interviews etc...). For example if you were offered 85k and came back with 88k, I would say 90%+ of the time it would be accepted, I know personally I would accept that from a candidate. You could always go higher and hope the company counters back with a higher amount. Just don't go too high as it looks insulting and that you are unaware of the market. I would say on average you should be able to get yourself an additional 5-10% of the original offer with a smart counter.

Start date should be pretty easy to ask for especially since it's only a week, don't have any qualms about that. Unless there's some sort of reason they need you absolutely ASAP you should be fine (and if they do keep that in mind when countering on the salary).

The work schedule is a different topic. Many companies including the one I'm at currently leave that up to the manager or leader in the department. You could ask or even ask to talk to your would be boss, but I would negotiate that pre-employment as its not usually something an HR person can guarantee. If you have anymore questions I'll do my best to respond.

Bigku22

May 25th, 2016 at 2:06 PM ^

Lol no but honestly I spend usually 5-10 seconds per resume. If I don't see what I'm looking for, you aren't qualified, or the resume has a poor layout I move on. When you have 30-50 jobs and hundreds of applicants time is at a premium. Also the full cycle hiring process is much more long and complex than most candidates realize, it can feel like it's taking forever (sometimes it does) but there's a lot of steps and coordination between departments that needs to happen.

ypsituckyboy

May 25th, 2016 at 2:14 PM ^

I've gotten like 1 or 2 interviews from online portals. No job offers. Every interview that led to a job offer has been through  personal/professional connection or a recruiter.

Totally random question - what are the most and least competitive career fields these days? (i.e. which are hardest to find and which spots are you bombarded with resumes) I ask because I'm an attorney and I've heard of employers getting 500+ resumes for openings that aren't super specialized.

 

Bigku22

May 25th, 2016 at 2:58 PM ^

Yea it's definitely still more about who you know rather than what you know unfortunately. I work for a local large utility (I'm sure you can guess) and I would say any mid to senior level position in Engineering, Nuclear, Data Analytics, and IT are some that are difficult to fill.

Our easiest to fill and ones with 500+ apps would be more in the administrative assistant. Customer service rep, positions that are entry level and only require a high school diploma.

In regards to legal, our attorneys are more specialized (energy legislation, tax, employment) so we would likely only hire experienced attorneys in those fields or groom them ourselves through the co-op program. But I know in the criminal and defense side of legal the market has been flooded by dime a dozen law schools churning out candidates.

QuemeLosBarcos

May 25th, 2016 at 1:39 PM ^

From the perspective of a person who is in a perpetual hiring mode - almost every bullet on an offer letter is negotiable. Rarely do we make a comp offer that cannot be raised without issue. Start date is also negotiable, but keep in mind that the post is likely for immediate work, so delaying hurts your overall profile. For us, a 4 day work week is a non-starter for new hires. Once they have proven themselves capable of handling it on a trial basis, it becomes an option.

Overall, the more you try to negotiate, the more other candidates appear as viable options, so just be sure you are the right/best person. We have turned people down and gone with a second choice at times due to negotiation difficulties. Hope this helps!

HailVictors97

May 25th, 2016 at 1:39 PM ^

Hi Denver,

I've been in executive search for over 10 years. Here are my thoughts:

Presenting a counteroffer is a common practice and if you feel like your market value is higher then the offer presented you can counter. When you do, make sure you give a solid business reason for wanting more money other then "I want more money." 

I dont think leveraging one offer against another is as common as people say it is. Its also not well recieved by your prespective new empolyers. 

You can ask for any start date you want. Most companies will be fine with whatever you want. They are just happy you said yes.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Cheers!

Alton

May 25th, 2016 at 1:50 PM ^

Obviously you know more about this than I do, but that wasn't my experience the last time I went through this.

I was in OP's position a few years ago.  One employer offered me ($x).  The other offered me ($x+8%).  I thanked the first one, and told them that I would not be taking their offer because another firm had offered me ($x+8%).  They asked if I would be willing to listen to a counter-offer, I told them "certainly."  Later that day they called me with an offer of ($x+11%). 

Obviously they didn't need to counter-offer, but in my case just telling the truth helped me out.  I suppose I wasn't really trying to leverage anything at the time, but my intentions didn't matter--it still got me a few more percentage points in the end.

gbdub

May 25th, 2016 at 7:13 PM ^

That was my experience as well - I was holding multiple offers, and said "honestly I like you guys but I have a better offer and will take that one unless you can beat it" they ultimately weren't able to, but they did give me a counter-offer with higher salary.

If you honestly have a better offer, what's wrong with being honest? If they decide to take it personally, well, take the better offer. Nothing to lose. And really, what better evidence could there be to justify a counter offer - "I know I'm worth at least X, because these guys offered to pay me that"!




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ghostofhoke

May 25th, 2016 at 2:31 PM ^

As an employer I agree with this. We hired several positions in the last 6 months and one tried to leverage another offer, we were happy to let them take it if they wanted to go in that direction. Start date is an easy thing to provide flexibility on. Basically you don't know when you were going to be able to fill the position anyway so it's all gravy--unless you have another equally qualified candidate that can start and you really need to fill the position. It also doesn't lock you into a poor business decision such as starting salary which kind of locks you in to future trends not only for the company but for the employee.

Work from home is a tricky one, personally I would definitely not be open to a 4 day work week. Most jobs especially at that level are expecting a 50 hour work week minimum anyway cutting to 4 is kind of a ridiculous ask unless that's already standard practice at the company. But in my opinion there is no justification whatsoever for a "senior" anything to only be working 4 days.

bronxblue

May 25th, 2016 at 2:58 PM ^

Maybe it's personal experience, but I've not had problems with reasonable counter-offers based on existing offers.  If the first company is offended that you are saying company B is willing to pay you 5% more, then so be it, but they shouldn't be offended.  The job market defines labor based on how much someone is willing to spend for it, and so the market rate is what those offers come to.  If someone is outside that band that's their fault, but it might also mean the first company is underestimating the current job market.

Jeff09

May 25th, 2016 at 1:41 PM ^

In my experience the following is true:

- If they want you, they probably won't react negatively to some form of counter-offer. Most likely they will either counter your counter or tell you their initial offer was best. I'd be surprised if they pulled your initial offer unless you ask for something completely outlandish
- Mentioning that you have multiple offers probably helps your case. It simultaneously forces the employers to compete for you and let's them know you're a valuable commodity (confirming their initial view that led them to make you an offer)
- This is a life principle, but if you don't ask you won't get. Want a day at home? More pay? The only way to ensure you won't get those things is to never ask
- In negotiations I've found it helpful to present an "executable offer" meaning that when you go back to a company with a counter, phrase it that you will sign on with them immediately if they do X, y, Z. That way they know if they respond to your asks they will have you on board for sure, and I think it increases the probability they accede. Don't lie though, if you say that, they meet your offer, and you still don't sign, you could do your personal brand some damage in the job marketplace

Hope this is helpful

ak47

May 25th, 2016 at 1:44 PM ^

Your first negotaation is your most important, all future earnings are based off of it.  As long as you don't go in crazy high of course you should negotiate.  Do some research on what the salary ranges of those positions are so you aren't asking for anything crazy.  If you have two job offers you should 100% tell the lower offer what the other offer is. Say I would prefer to work in this position but the difference in money makes it difficult, is there anything you can do?  Most places have salary ranges, there is almost always room to negotiate up.  Asking for a month between when you accept the job and when you start isn't crazy but don't push back if they say no.

 

I wouldn't expect to get a 4 day work week but you can do other things, you can get 4 days in the office, one work at home day.

Caveat, I'm 25 and have only had the chance to negotaite once (did americorps, still in non-profits)  I had 3 job offers. The place I'm at only raised my offer $5,000 when I told them the truth but hey I would have accepted the job without that increase and its 5k I wouldn't have plus the increase it led to in my 401k match for the year and the base for any raise I might get.

J.

May 26th, 2016 at 12:05 AM ^

"Your first negotaation is your most important, all future earnings are based off of it."

In most companies, especially in competitive fields, this isn't really the case.  The best performers will tend to rise to the top of the pay scale regardless of where they start.  At bonus / salary adjustment time, they can see who is making what, who's overpaid relative to their peers, and who's underpaid.  At most companies, the high-performing, underpaid people will get the biggest bump, to try to bring them in line with their peers.  It's not altruism -- it's the knowledge that they're the company's most vulnerable assets in terms of being poached by the competition.  Yes, it will affect the first year or two, but how well you do your job is much more important than where you start on the salary chart.

I'm a big fan of the "if you can do X, Y, and Z, I'll sign today" approach,* because it is an indication of good faith on the candidate's part.  Nobody likes to be used, and if you simply ask for a better offer without giving any assurances, the hiring manager may well be concerned that the candidate's interest is less than sincere and that any response would just be used as leverage against a competing firm.

I don't see a one-month-out start date to be a particular issue.  If people seem concerned, I'd say something like this: "I need to give my current employer three weeks' notice, and then I'd like to take a week to recharge my batteries, so to speak.  After all, I understand that I won't have any vacation accrued for a while."  Having said that, two weeks' notice to your current employer is standard in most industries, so you may be asking for one week more than you need.

Regardless, OP, good luck!

* Off-topic, but this works pretty well in other negotations as well.  For example, it's a great approach for purchasing a car.  It's so good, in fact, that car salesmen will actually try to push you into it: "What would it take to get you into this car today?"  The difference, of course, is that the salesman is trying to get the client to make a snap decision.  As the purchaser, you presumably wouldn't make a committable offer until you had already done your homework and decided which vehicle you wanted to purchase.

Blazefire

May 25th, 2016 at 1:47 PM ^

Rest assured, blog: someday when I'm feeling particularly accomplished, I won't be doing any of this humblebrag bull. I'll come straight at you with a post titled, "I'm awesome and my penis is enormous."




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bluecanuck

May 25th, 2016 at 2:01 PM ^

I think the money will be easier as it is just money and not a potential inconvenience for your future boss.

Also, from a cynical point of view (having been on both sides) the person you are negotiating with is likely really fucking busy, hates hiring, and just wants it to be over. This makes it very unlikely that they pull the offer and if all its going to take to hire you is $5,000 of someone else's money, I am guessing they'd push for that.

Also definitely mention the other offers. It makes you look good and that they could lose you. It also is a subtle reinforcement of your future boss's decision to offer you (i.e., other people see a lot in this person as well).




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Badkitty

May 25th, 2016 at 2:02 PM ^

I'm sure you can get the start date you want. Just tell them you need to give your old employer notice and that'll you are going to help them transition to a situation without you. Unless you badmouth your old employer you'll end up looking even more of a helpful team player.




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