OT: Fauci says sports can probably proceed without spectators (for summer)
Per ESPN
Take that, doomers. It's not what we all prefer, but it's far from the worst case scenario if it comes to pass.
I'll be very sad if I can't see a game at Michigan Stadium, Comerica Park or Lambeau Field this fall but I will take getting drunk in the mancave over the nothingness that is our current situation.
Now remove the stick from Newsome's ass.
April 15th, 2020 at 11:22 AM ^
Avatar checks out.....sorry Don I couldn’t help myself.
Who is Fauci and why does he say this?
April 15th, 2020 at 10:03 AM ^
You truly have to be living under a rock to not know who Anthony Fauci is in 2020
April 15th, 2020 at 10:47 AM ^
My question is slightly different: who died and made this guy God?
Based upon all available evidence, Dr. Fauci appears to be a typical ivory tower academic. This is the same guy who called 17 million Americans out of work -- and counting! -- an "inconvenience." I think the constant wave of reporters sticking microphones in his face has gone to his head. Let's let him stick to medicine, and the rest of us can decide how to live our lives.
April 15th, 2020 at 11:16 AM ^
This guy has been working on infectious disease his entire adult life. The nature of his job is making tough calls with huge trade-offs. Calling 17 million Americans being unemployed an "inconvenience" was admittedly not a great look, but in the grand scheme of things being unemployed is an inconvenience if you're comparing it to being dead.
The problem with him sticking the medicine and you deciding how to live your life is that you might accidentally infect a bunch of folks who are more vulnerable than you.
April 15th, 2020 at 11:27 AM ^
Its not all or nothing. Fauci should have input. He should not be making final decisions. Those depend on many many more factors than he looks at.
It is not life vs. jobs. When he says "inconvenience" he ignores the myriad of mental, physical and other problems that come from poverty and job lose. He minimizes it. The exact opposite of what you did when said that it pales n comparison to "being dead" which is not a likely outcome from the virus.
April 15th, 2020 at 11:48 AM ^
He's an academic. He's in over his head.
The problem is, if the single most important priority is to avoid death, regardless of the cost, then you end up locking people in their homes for their own good -- which, incidentally, is basically where we are today. In America. Land of the free and all that.
Yes, any of us might infect people with a disease. That's part of life. If you want to isolate people who test positive, fine. If you want to do contact tracing and strongly suggest that asymptomatic people get tested, that's also fine; I certainly don't want to infect anybody.
But presuming that I -- or anyone -- is a carrier of death, and acting accordingly, without any reason to suspect me except the fact that I'm breathing? That's beyond the pale, and I resent it.
April 15th, 2020 at 12:02 PM ^
You're building an entire village of strawmen here. Do you really think Dr. Fauci is a dictator who emerged from the dreaded SWAMP to hurt Trump or something? Do you also think he isn't entirely aware of the costs?
On isolating people who test positive, sure. But who has been tested? Almost no one so you are left with a rapidly spreading disease which we can't readily detect. All of your arguments are made to sound like everything is so much more totalitarian than it is because it's the only way for your arguments to make any sense
April 15th, 2020 at 12:19 PM ^
I'm sorry, did my post really read as a complaint that we were being ruled by the wrong dictator?
I suspect he's not fully aware of the costs, because they don't affect him. This is common in both government and academics, which is why I referred to the "ivory tower" originally. He lives in a world where everyone can work from home, do all of their shopping online, and where this really is an inconvenience. In the real world, 17 million people out of work as of last week, and how many more when the next report comes out tomorrow?
The country is rapidly heading toward totalitarianism. I don't have to exaggerate anything; it's happening. We have 51 dictators instead of 1, but it's still a form of totalitarianism. (Governors, not legislatures, are shutting down the economy).
April 15th, 2020 at 12:28 PM ^
On the plus side, I understand what "OK doomer" means now
April 15th, 2020 at 12:43 PM ^
He lives in a world where everyone can work from home, do all of their shopping online, and where this really is an inconvenience.
You just described many occupants of the USA's C-suites. Are they out of touch, too?
On the subject of "academics," it may interest you to know that most of the people doing the heavy lifting aren't making enough to "do all their shopping online."
I mean, it probably won't interest you. It would mess up the narrative you've been fed (and that you swallowed readily).
April 15th, 2020 at 12:52 PM ^
Yes, many C-suite occupants are out of touch. I'm not suggesting that they should get to play God either.
And, you're correct that it takes time to grow into the ivory tower. Grad students (who are likely doing most of the heavy lifting) and adjunct professors aren't isolated to the degree that full professors are. I'm not sure what that has to do with Dr. Fauci, though, unless you were just responding to the label of 'academic,' which, fair. I don't think most people would refer to adjunct professors as 'academics,' even though they play an important role in academia.
I don't think most people would refer to adjunct professors as 'academics,' even though they play an important role in academia.
I suspect you know better. "Academia" is a top-tier dog whistle for the low end of Trump's base (the same people who sized up Sarah Palin in 2008 and declared her fit for the VP job). I'm pretty sure I know what it means to Duane:
https://politics.theonion.com/yee-haw-my-vote-cancels-out-yalls-1819584076
Sorry, I haven't had time to learn all of the "dog whistles" that I'm not supposed to say anymore. I'm not making any secret signals to anybody. I'm saying, if you're the sort of person who has lived in the cocoon of academic and/or government life for decades, you're probably out of touch with what the average person is going through, in exactly the same way that members of the C-suite often are.
And, FWIW, rural doesn't mean uneducated. That's a pretty offensive stereotype, actually.
You actually aren't suggesting anything other than that we shouldn't live in fear of the virus, which is as about as useful as the musing of a 12 year old.
You keep blathering on about the cocoon of government and academia and that we shouldn't listen to epidemiologist regarding a pandemic.
What you've got is a number of straw man arguments, e.g., shutting down the economy until a vaccine, and then a number of unsubstantiated claims about who should and shouldn't inform policy. You've made it clear what you want and with the guise of being rational, but you've posed no actual solutions.
Not living in fear is not a solution. Coming up with plans for the health care system to function normally is a solution.
- Accept that we do not have the health care infrastructure to save everyone.
- Develop triage procedures to prioritize care.
- Continue to invest in hospitals so that we are better prepared the next time something like this happens.
- Agree on what the structural problems underlying the health care system are (easier said than done)
- Address those problems (surprisingly easy if we achieve #4).
Pretending that we can solve this with "social distancing" is nothing more than wishful thinking.
In re #4, some people will tell you that the problem is the insurance industry; others, that it's torts; still others, licensure, unequal access to care, etc. But we tend to jump right to solutions before we figure out what the problem is, so we debate nationalized health insurance before we decide if health insurance is the problem. If the main problem is torts, nationalized health insurance doesn't do much good.
April 15th, 2020 at 10:00 PM ^
You're a fucking idiot.
You're not going to get through to most of the people here with this argument- they have no frame of reference to understand it. It is just an inconvenience for them as well.
But their is many people who are sitting on the fence and really dont know what to believe.
The points J is making are important for many people to consider.
And hes not at all wrong about his "academia ivory tower" comments.
A ton of people in academia who are so "orange man bad" are so fucking out of touch with most people and everything that's happening.
They are going through extremely uncomfortable episodes of cognitive dissonance. They dont understand that regular people now are becoming good at doing their own research and that the media has totally destroyed itself for 4 years now.
April 15th, 2020 at 12:39 PM ^
The "we must expand testing" meme that has been ingrained in the zeitgeist, seems to be a problem in what are you trying to accomplish with it. Are you trying to identify infected people to treat and isolate, or are you trying gather enough data to understand spread of the disease in order to determine overall policy. The latter requires significantly fewer tests, but has to be applied in a random enough manner as to get an accurate spread. If you are trying for the former, I would contend that you never catch up, because you have to test everyone who might have been exposed, and thus are concentrated around the "hot spots". This is a little too invasive for my tastes. I concur with the Fauci as a ivory tower academic view. The lack of context for the impact of his recommendations is typical of those who never bear the brunt of the results.
I think he is a dictator, yes. He's an unelected official who suggested that we shut down the country because we might lose 2,000,000 people when he had absolutely no idea what this was and without acknowledging we lose 3,000,000 a year normally. Maybe that was the right call 4-6 weeks ago but he's doubling down on his initial hysteria with comments like "we should never shake hands again". If that's his mindset, he should be removed immediately as we can't have an extreme germophobe making life altering decisions for the world at large. We don't live in a clean room environment and never will.
He also seems abhorrent to new data coming from overseas that shows the following:
1. This is most deadly to those aged 80 plus and falls off once you get below aged 70. Both Spain and Italy average age of death is 80+.
2. This is deadly if you have an underlying symptom like obesity, diabetes, respiratory issues.
3. If you are relatively healthy and under 65 years of age, the fatality rate is about 0.3%.
https://as.com/diarioas/2020/03/26/actualidad/1585242301_035736.html
This guy will NEVER say we are ok to move forward because he's incentivized to be as conservative as possible. If he keeps us locked up, and no one else dies, he's a hero. If he doesn't and no one else dies, he's exposed as a fraud. If he doesn't keep us locked up and people die, he's blamed for their deaths.
The only scenario where he wins is #1.....and that's where he's going to keep us.
Careful, you're using rational thought to reach a reasoned argument. The neg police will be coming for you! ;)
Thanks...almost all of my posts get auto negged so I'm pretty used to it.
A dictator...who has no powers. I mean, sure, he makes recommendations in pressers and through the CDC, and many states are following them and implementing strict measures, but he's not actually enforcing anything. Because he can't. BECAUSE HE'S NOT A DICTATOR.
Meanwhile you have a president saying he has "total authority" to tell states they must open the economy....when he doesn't. Obama saying that would have conservative heads exploding (though he's actually a Constitutional scholar, so he would never say such a ridiculous thing). But you think Fauci is the dictator? Fuck outta here, man.
Except when his recommendations immediately get the force of law, he's acting in the same capacity.
But, to reiterate, this has nothing to do with the president. I agree with you -- President Trump's statements have been as bad or worse. If President Trump were to say "maybe we can have sports, but without crowds" -- and I'm not putting it past him -- I'd be calling him out on that too.
My man, he didn't put in the force of law. That makes him, by definition, not a dictator. If governors take his expertise seriously and implement laws to follow, then they are acting on their own. Call them dictators if you must (I'd disagree with that too, but it would be at least slightly less ridiculous of an opinion).
There is no nationwide quarantine. Each state and local government is free to impose whatever level of social distancing measure they feel is necessary. Fauci isn't making anyone do anything. It's simply ludicrous to believe so.
The only reason I brought up Trump is because surely you would think claiming "total authority" over states' actions would be more akin to what a dictator would say, especially when the person saying it has that level of power and can exercise it if nobody will hold him accountable (he is the president, after all).
Fauci has none of those powers. At all. Not even a little bit. He only has the power of words and expertise. But I do find it interesting how many people seem to think that makes him a dictator though.
He can't be replaced and he can't be overruled without the media having a conniption. That's more power than you're giving him but, whatever, his words put 20,000,000 into unemployment and the media won't accept any outcome that isn't rubber stamped by him.\
You're right.....no power at all.
Of course he can be replaced, or have you not paid attention to the past 3 years? The WH is a revolving door. The media has a conniption for everything Trump does (and, imo, often with good reason). That's never stopped him before.
And I never said Fauci didn't have any power. He certainly does. People trust what he says, and that's due to his credentials and decades of experience in the field (he's served under many presidents). That earns him power, and certainly puts Trump in a position where firing him would be political suicide. But the thing is, ultimately, Trump can do whatever the fuck he wants.
There's a metric fuckton of space between "he has power" and "he's a dictator". The former is truth...the latter is sensationalistic dribble.
April 15th, 2020 at 12:37 PM ^
It is his boss that is in over his head. Fauci is doing what he should be, unfortunately others in the White House are not similarly stepping up.
April 15th, 2020 at 12:54 PM ^
Fauci shouldn't be trying to dictate policy. I will agree that part of the reason he's being asked to do so is that the alleged politician in charge has been woefully inept.
I'm really trying to figure out what you think his role should be. I don't think it's overstepping any bounds to say "if we do this, I think this is what will happen" based on the models he's relying on and his experience.
By the way -- I realize it's incredibly difficult to convey tone in text, so let me just say that I'm genuinely curious about your perspective. I'm not trying to attack you or start a flame war.
In an ideal world, we wouldn't know his name, because he'd be busy working behind the scenes to improve those models and try to answer questions from the politicians who are supposed to be making policy.
The trouble starts because we appear to be turning CDC recommendations into law without any debate or serious consideration of alternatives. That may not be his fault, and so my anger may be misplaced. Still, I would prefer if he would say something like "It's not my role to make policy" and refuse to answer media questions about policy positions. Answer questions about science and data, and leave the policy to the politicians.
Succinctly: We shouldn't have to get Dr. Fauci's blessing to have a football season.
If Fauci is a dictator than what the hell does that make Trump? He literally tried to say he had a complete control over the actions of states the other day even though that is not a power granted to him by the Constitution. He has behaved like a wannabe dictator his whole time in office, you Trumpers are truly delusional and detached from reality.
I didn't vote for Trump in 2016; I won't vote for him in 2020; I've said since he first started running that he thought he was running for dictator. But the fact that he's in the wrong doesn't mean that Dr. Fauci is somehow in the right.
April 15th, 2020 at 12:59 PM ^
You go first. I'll give the disease to you and if you survive we'll see if your bloviating is any different.
I mean, I hope that you wouldn't knowingly spread any disease to me or anyone else. But, yes, I refuse to live in fear, and I understand the consequences of that, including the fact that I might get a disease. I also understand the consequences of getting in a car, getting on an airplane, using my stove, or even eating sugar. All of these pose risks to my short-term or long-term safety. If you're trying to call me out as a hypocrite, you fail.
April 15th, 2020 at 11:52 AM ^
You kind of hit on this in the 2nd paragraph, but what makes the decisions on restrictions vs economics so difficult for the policy makers is that the people losing their jobs are likely not the same people most at risk of death. Really tough concept to accept if you are losing your job... I think reasonable people can disagree on risk tolerance and management going forward, but some of the politics of this have really stripped away empathy. Calling someone concerned about their livelihood “privileged” or “anti-science” is a bit much. (Note that last comment wasn’t directed at the post I’m replying to)
April 15th, 2020 at 12:02 PM ^
I like Fauci and think that he is doing a good job overall. If you talk to the press as much as he does, you are going to say something that does not come out well.
Fauci initially became famous for his work on the AIDS crisis over 30 years ago. We STILL do not have a vaccine for HIV. Now, the HIV virus is much different than the corona virus. But, there is no guarantee that we will get a corona virus vaccine soon or ever.
April 15th, 2020 at 12:04 PM ^
The unemployment fund is not unlimited. Go to bridgemi.com. They give unbiased data every day. In two months Michigan's deficit could be 15 billion.
They are talking about raising taxes on whatever businesses are left to make up for the short fall. That will fix it.
April 15th, 2020 at 12:52 PM ^
It's estimated that 1,000,000 people in MI are claiming unemployment which equates to 25% of the workforce. How much human suffering and misery is worth it to keep 80 year olds alive another 3 years?
Is it 50% of the workforce being economically ruined for the next 10 years enough to loosen things up? Because that's where it's headed.....
This is the right discussion to have. I don't envy the politicians that have to make this call.
April 15th, 2020 at 11:25 AM ^
Jesus fucking christ. Another anti-science moron.
"let him stick to medicine" That is what he is doing you neanderthal..
April 15th, 2020 at 11:34 AM ^
Dispense profanity. Make up a label. Gosh, you seem like a wonderful person.
April 15th, 2020 at 11:40 AM ^
LOL. I've been called many, many things in my life, but "anti-science" is a first. Getting a medical degree does not qualify someone to be dictator.
Creating computer models isn't science -- it's educated guessing. To perform science, one follows the scientific method, which means limiting the number of variables, defining a hypothesis, and testing it. Computer models are untested hypotheses.
For the most part, epidemiology is a soft science, like economics. After all, you certainly can't run controlled clinical trials on disease outbreaks to see what works and what doesn't. Instead, they model as much information as is known at present and then run several projections where they tweak assumptions. The competent scientists take pains to point out these assumptions, the range of values that they're getting back, etc. The media, on the other hand, pick the scariest one, because it's the most newsworthy, and report it as fact.
That I am a scientist is why I know better than to accept untested hypotheses as fact.
April 15th, 2020 at 12:04 PM ^
C'mon, that's dumb. You are essentially saying that we should let a deadly virus run its course while we get data before making decisions because those decisions need to be based on more data.
April 15th, 2020 at 12:25 PM ^
Yes, I am. Because the alternative is to make decisions based upon nothing. How is that better? Politicians want to be seen as "doing something," even if it's the wrong thing. Few have the courage to do nothing.
The simple fact of the matter is that we are accepting a huge impact upon our liberties, and a huge impact upon our economy, because of the fear of a bigger impact from the virus. Fear of the unknown is a powerful drug.
There's a reason we have a constitution. Fear can be used to justify anything. The constitution is supposed to protect us from our own worst impulses as a society.
As a fellow PhD in hard sciences, oh wow you're not that special, of course decisions are not being made based on nothing but actual data from the county level to the international. The data also includes status of medical supplies. Actual conditions in ICUs and morgues.
Your opinions on your personal liberties are entirely irrelevant to the current situation. The question is simply how do we best manage the virus to allow our health care system to act even remotely normally and minimizing the economic damage. You provided exactly zero enlightenment toward this goal.
This is Fauci's goal. This is Whitmer's goal. This is Trump's goal. This is the CDC's goal. China's goal. Italy's goal. Luckily we have experts we can rely on in their "soft sciences" and government to inform policy, so we don't decided things based on demonstrating how not scared you are.
I'm not a PhD. That said, to the extent that decisions are being made on forecasts, the forecasts are a combination of data and computer models -- and, thus, guesses. It's no different than somebody producing a jobs report saying that the only growth industry over the next 15 years will be soybean farming, so we start throwing all of our effort into soybean science.
My opinions on my personal liberties are extremely relevant to the current situation, because we allegedly live in a free country, where the government exists to serve the people, not vice versa. I have been voluntarily adhering to stay-at-home suggestions, despite my building anger at the lack of scientific rigor, out of a sense of regard for the community.
I live in Austin. Earlier this week, the City of Austin -- which is not a hotspot -- extended its stay-at-home order to May 8 (!) and implemented mandatory face covering. This, despite the fact that homemade facemasks are nearly worthless, especially the way people use them. I could go to jail for 180 days for the crime of smiling at somebody. I refuse to bow to peer pressure and do something pointless, but I'm not exactly looking to get arrested either. I'm hoping I can actually find local grocers with capacity to deliver, lest I have to choose between obeying an order I find distasteful (and unconstitutional), or driving to the next town to go grocery shopping, which... seems to defeat the purpose of a stay-at-home order, doesn't it?
The health care system is part of the country. It's not the whole thing.
Social distancing is an emergency means of limiting the crisis, which without question has been successful. The raw data, not predictive epidemiological models, shows this in hard hit cities. It shows it comparison between Tennessee and Kentucky. It shows it S. Korea, Germany, etc.
Only someone not thinking rationally would even question if it can help since virus spread relies on proximity. This is equivalent to you debating 1 + 1 = 2.
And while you keep screaming bloody murder about your liberties and economic damage and the scarecrow arguing for never ending social distancing, you are missing the real discussion experts and government officials are having about HOW and WHEN to open businesses to manage the situation optimally.
We aren't going to decide things because you feel cooped up. It will be a slow iterative procedure. Accept it or don't, but this your reality for 2020. I am thankful for people deciding things beyond one individual's concern over right to bar hop on Rainey St or E. 6th.