OT: Explosions outside stadium of France vs Germany football match in Paris. [locked]

Submitted by SalvatoreQuattro on

EDIT: 18 dead per Agence France-Presse 

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/665281686679257090

http://www.breakingnews.com/item/2015/11/13/explosions-reported-at-stade-de-france-outside-par/

[Ed:S: Thread locked. It seems this was a coordinated terrorist attack. As of 7:04pm there are about 40 dead and rumored 100 taken hostage from a metal concert. France has closed its borders.

Comments have been disabled partly because early comments that were a bad idea looked like atrocious ideas once the scope of this became known. Also because some people have some very weird ideas about what goes on in other countries.]

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Mister X

November 13th, 2015 at 5:27 PM ^

...in the 8th by the Place de l'Alma. They're saying a trentaine (30-ish) dead now on France Info radio, including hostages at the Bataclan, where I was last night(!) at the St. Germain concert. Too soon and too close for jokes - thoughts are with the victims.

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LSAClassOf2000

November 13th, 2015 at 5:37 PM ^

We can leave this here because it is major world news and deserves discussion, but I've already had to delete one religiously charged string within this thread and I ask that no one create another. I really would not want to start doling out Bolivia when our thoughts should be with the French and the families and friends of those who are victims of such violence.

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bleens ditch

November 13th, 2015 at 6:05 PM ^

What I love about this blog is it's freedom from the political and social and religious tension that is increasingly part of the national discourse. With that said, ideas and idealogies are not all the same, and they drive the actions of their most commited adherents.



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bluecanuck

November 13th, 2015 at 6:10 PM ^

France is a troubled place to be sure.  A major, major problem in France is the segregation and economic disenfranchisement of their minority residents.  Look up some stats on unemployement rates and other demographic indicators for this group and you'll understand.  France literally has a Muslim/African underclass.  It's a very sad situation and the poor state of France's economy plus European racism (neg me if you want but let's call it what it is) have clearly contributed.  Hell, just google "banlieus" and you'll know what I'm talking about.

Contrary to a lot of the comments on this post, the immigration surge hitting Europe likely does not have much to do with this.  The massive numbers you hear about are mostly in Germany, Sweden, Balkan countries, Greece/Italy, and places like Austria and Hungary.  Certainly there are migrants in France, but the mass immigration we are seeing is pretty heavily concentrated right now.

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SalvatoreQuattro

November 13th, 2015 at 6:37 PM ^

the early 8th century(not the Crusades which came 400 years after) when Islamic Moors invaded  what is now Spain and France. They have warred on and off ever since.

It's really tragic because both have contributed immensely to the global culture impacting our lives to this day in every scientific and artistic field imaginable.

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FidelioHorelick

November 13th, 2015 at 6:39 PM ^

" Then there is the resident anti-Islam/relgious aspect of France that has been around for 200 years" and I retort specifically to it about them more being anti french, and then you reply with going back to the 8th century in a broader geographical stroke?

Thank though for saying "Islamic Moors", I may have confused some people with the makes of Moors Light.

 

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FidelioHorelick

November 13th, 2015 at 6:24 PM ^

I supposed if I washed ashore Japan, refused to learn Japanese, refused to adopt the culture of my adopted country and refused to do all sorts of things I would be poor, etc etc. 

Just because a demographic group shows differently than another doesn't mean it's racism (unless of course your a student, at say missou or yale).

but no, I did not downvote you.

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bluecanuck

November 13th, 2015 at 6:34 PM ^

You bring up a fair point, and I am sure this contributes as well.  But I would say two things.  1) If you are a new immigrant arriving in this land from, say, Algeria, you are likely to come to the banlieus, and I would imagine that the segregated nature of them would make it hard to integrate.  2) We are talking about millions of people here.  I highly doubt that each one has decided to refuse to learn the French language and customs and try to integrate.

Oh and a third - many of these people DO speak French and come from French-speaking parts of Africa.

EDIT: I want to make clear that I am not blaming anyone for this.  Just stating that I think conditions in France have created a situation where these horrible things are more likely to happen.  We have seen this much more in France than other, similar European countries, for example.

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snarling wolverine

November 13th, 2015 at 6:46 PM ^

I think you are conflating two separate issues: poverty/discrimination and terrorism.  On a per-capita basis, France has not produced the most ISIS fighters in Europe (Belgium apparently holds that "distinction").  

The terrorist issue is probably more due to France's recent foreign policy - it is one of the more assertive European countries against ISIS and has recently helped defeat an ISIS-linked insurgency in Mali, and is also participating in the battle in Syria.  

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bluecanuck

November 13th, 2015 at 6:49 PM ^

That is a very good point as well.  Just points to this not being a simple problem with a simple answer.  I definitely did not intend for it to come across like that.  I think you are definitely correct, and one only needs to look at the ISIS recruits from middle class homes with university degrees and solid jobs to back up your point.

That being said, I do think that there is a lot of relationship between the two things here.  Poverty/discrimination in certain environments can definitely breed extremism.  So can a feeling of not really having a "place" to call your own.

 

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snarling wolverine

November 13th, 2015 at 6:37 PM ^

There is truth to this, although it's not just a French problem but more generally an issue with Western societies - nowadays almost every one has some kind of minority/immigrant group that is marginalized by all the socieoconomic indicators: Turkish immigrants in Germany, Pakistani immigrants in the UK, Albanians in Italy, and so on.  France's poor people are perhaps more isolated than most given that they are mostly "hidden" outside the city centers, but I'm not sure that they fare that much worse than the minorities in neighboring countries.  

At any rate, these kinds of terror attacks are condemned by almost everyone, regardless of their background.  This is presumably the work of the tiny fringe that is pro-ISIS.  It doesn't take many "lone wolves" to cause a massacre.  

 

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FidelioHorelick

November 13th, 2015 at 6:45 PM ^

Yes, in the short term, after this group of terrorists are bagged, France will still be on high alert, and the next round of attacks will wait until things cool down again so they can maximize casualties.

I know it is cynical to say, but going to France in 2 weeks probably has a safer outlook than going in 2-4 months. 

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Gil From Omaha

November 13th, 2015 at 6:46 PM ^

Fuck these sick people. Acts of terrorism have nothing to do with religion. These people are criminals, terrorists, not some religious extremist. Stop trying to defend terrorism or justify it because of religion. That's bullshit.



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it's Science

November 13th, 2015 at 6:59 PM ^

I'm going to get dinged for this, but as a secular agnostic who prides himself on being tolerant, religion ABSOLUTELY has something to do with a good majority of terrorism. Suicide bombing? They think they are going to their heaven. No non-religious person would risk such nonsense. Pardon me for being so rude, but you have to be very ignorant to believe terrorism doesn't have a long history of roots in religion. Christians bombing abortion clinics? Muslims awaiting martyrdom? The IRA? Oklahoma City?



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