OT Duke/'Cuse: Again, why basketball will always be #2...
The charge/blocking foul grey area and how referees use it to favor the home team is the reason basketball will always play second fiddle to football as a spectator sport. While in football there will also be the occasional home cooking (Crable roughing Smith *cough*), the frequency we see it in college basketball makes it that games at certain venues are almost unwatchable, such as games at Assembly and Cameron.
The charge on Parker that went as an And 1, and the last second charge on C.J. Fair where he lept as the Dukie was setting his feet and should have been a no call, are just the latest in what could be a list of at least 1,000 home cooked charge/block calls I've witnessed in my life. In my opinion it literally ruins the game given in close games it frequently swings the outcome. In truth it also extends beyond charges/blocks to ticky tack fouls, but those tend to be used liberally by the refs to bring the team that is down considerably, back in the game.
Duke and Indiana are fine schools with lovely students, but when playing basketball at Assembly or Cameron, f*ck Duke and f*ck Indiana and their home cooked cheese, and to hell with the charge/block rules and how refs interpret them to ruin the true, fair outcome of games.
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:11 PM ^
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:12 PM ^
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:17 PM ^
February 22nd, 2014 at 11:41 PM ^
It was definitely the right call if it happened in present times. In 2006, the rules didn't enforce illegal hits on QBs nearly as much as today's time - therefore I think it's up for debate
February 23rd, 2014 at 12:01 AM ^
http://youtu.be/NTct4-vvhiQ
February 23rd, 2014 at 1:08 AM ^
The USC-UCLA game had the EXACT same play, with a maybe even MORE violent helmet-to-helmet hit against the UCLA QB by a USC linebacker. No flag, and the hit was replayed as the "hit of the game" over and over by ABC and then by Sportscenter. It was absolutely no different than the Crable hit. The only reason the Crable hit was flagged (at that time in 2006) was that it was on the OSU sideline in Columbus. Total home-cooked call.
It would of course be flagged today. Everyone is much more sensitive about helmet-hits now.
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:12 PM ^
February 22nd, 2014 at 11:42 PM ^
but they are clearly #3 and it isn't close.
Look at the variety of commenters in basketball open threads vs hockey ones. Dozens of people talk in the bball threads. The hockey threads are the same five people every time (and I'm one of them)
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:12 PM ^
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:18 PM ^
The Fair one is 50/50 and had it been at 'Cuse it would have been a blocking foul, but the Parker charge was one of the most obvious charges I've seen in a long time that went the other way. And this is nothing new. Every game has 4-5 calls that are a mess, but the way they always tend to gravitate to the home team, especially at Assembly and Cameron and a few other venues ruins the game.
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:23 PM ^
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:17 PM ^
No way! The last one on Fair(?) especially, the Duke guy was still moving, though it seemed sublte enough, he was moving. One USED to have to establish the position, for say a half second, not just creep up and meet at the same time and act "set" as players now do and sometimes get the call.
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:20 PM ^
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:24 PM ^
Not a chance... Charge 100%. And compare it to the home cooked cheese when they called that charge on Stauskas at Assembly when Ferrell was clearly still moving his feet? Reverse the roles there and that would have been a blocking foul on Stauskas since it was at Assembly. The sport is really a joke at times when you watch it played at Assembly and Cameron.
February 23rd, 2014 at 8:32 AM ^
I don't think if there was movement matters, only if the defender gets in position with both feet on the ground before the player with the ball leaves his feet. In both cases it seems like a charge.
http://www.naia.org/fls/27900/1NAIA/resources/sid/Rule%20Books/BASKETR…
Art. 4. To establish an initial legal guarding position on the player with the ball:
a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court. When the guard jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the playing court after the jump, for the guard to attain a legal guarding position.
b. The guard’s torso shall face the opponent.
c. No time and distance shall be required.
d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal guarding position before the opponent left the playing court.
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:13 PM ^
Hahaha
Thank god there's no subjectivity in holding or pass interference calls, no one EVER bitches about those.
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:14 PM ^
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:17 PM ^
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:23 PM ^
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:35 PM ^
1. Yeah, sitting on your butt for 40 seconds between each pitch, 80% of which are balls/strikes/fouls makes baseball such an awesome spectator sport....
2. Re-read my point. There will always be subjectivity in refereeing, that is not the issue. The issue is the bias refs demonstrate for home teams in college basketball, which is not very evident in football. In almost 40 years of watching college football I've never noticed a constant pattern of home cooked subjectivity in holdings/P.I. calls even remotely close to the home cooked cheese you see in college basketball. Not even close.
It can all be justified, like given the fact that basketball refs are much closer to ravenous, crazed home fans than football refs, thus making a basketball venue more intimidating to ref in, but justifications aside, it effing ruins the game in my eyes, and so thank god March Madness is usually played on neutral courts. It's 10 times better to watch than regular season conference games litered with endless home cooking.
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:38 PM ^
As a partial reply here, StatSheet does make a very broad attempt to quantify the bias. They do keep track of some referee stats and they do quantify "home foul margin", which is how many fouls overall the home team receives when compared to the away team. That list is here - LINK
Hopefully, I did that right and the table is sorted by that margin. You can click on individual referees and see which conferences they generally work and what their recent schedule has been as well, if you're interested in a deep dive into the subject. It isn't the complete answer, but hopefully it helps out some.
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:49 PM ^
February 23rd, 2014 at 2:37 AM ^
February 23rd, 2014 at 11:09 AM ^
Talk about picking at 40 year old scab. I remember that game so clearly and yes it was definitely, definitely, DEFINITELY good. In fact, it wasnt even really close to not good - it was just high in the air and coming from the old wide hash marks they use to have in college ball.
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:33 PM ^
I consider myself a baseball fan, but there's no more boring sport to watch in person. You go out to a baseball stadium to drink beer and chill, not watch 2 seconds of action every half minute or so.
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:25 PM ^
Also football is better to watch!
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:33 PM ^
Not according to the Dutch coach.
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:29 PM ^
win, even if it takes a phantom three point foul to win the game on free throws.
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:32 PM ^
I agree since what goes around should come around in our favor, but we both know it does take something away from the game to win that way.
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:35 PM ^
Let's face it, if you're a ref, way down deep inside it has to be fun to call a charge. You can just see how exciting it is by the exaggerated motions refs make when calling it, like an ump calling strike three.
It's always a dramatic moment in the game, the crowd gasps, the possession changes, and the momentum of the game often swings on the call. All from your tweet on the whistle. It has to be one of the coolest things you get to do as a ref. It's very rewarding if you can justify it in your head even a little. You're a robot if you don't get off on that a bit. Admit it refs.
February 23rd, 2014 at 12:41 AM ^
There's no conspiracy theory - refs call what they see. They want to be right. That's what matters. There's certainly an adrenaline rush on a big call, but the rush comes from knowing you got it right- which I thought was always sweeter when I made a bang-bang call that the home crowd hated but I knew the tape would show I was correct on.
There's nothing worse than making a call and knowing your wrong - a happy crowd doesn't make up for bring wrong bc the first thing you're going to do after is watch the tape and figure out what made you make the incorrect call
At least that's my experience.
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:35 PM ^
Yeah, I don't think that's the reason that basketball is #2.
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:37 PM ^
but I thought the ref got it right with the charge call on Fair.
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:39 PM ^
I'm guessing we get hosed by calls tomorrow. The reffing in East Lansing was atrocious. We tried to call a timeout and they ignored it and then something happened later and Beilein lost it. We never get the same home cooking in Crisler, but we can try be being loud in opposition to Izzo's bitching.
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:39 PM ^
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:52 PM ^
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:41 PM ^
Crable was close to being inbounds. Ohio probably doesn't get that call in Ann Arbor.
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:49 PM ^
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:50 PM ^
February 22nd, 2014 at 11:09 PM ^
February 22nd, 2014 at 11:20 PM ^
February 22nd, 2014 at 11:24 PM ^
February 23rd, 2014 at 12:35 AM ^
February 22nd, 2014 at 11:36 PM ^
Nope.
Look at ESPN replay. At 12 seconds Cook gets to the area but is nowhere near set. Move tenths of a second further; at 11.8 to 11.7 seconds Cook is still moving and getting into a full upright position...he's moving being the key. At 11.7 Fair leaves his foot and is actually in shooting motion, and Cook is again, still getting into position, still raising his arms and torso. Look at his feet also, they're "shuffling" the entire time, tell tale sign of not being set. Cook also flopped, Fair did not give anywhere near the impact that would send him to the floor that way. I know it's a close call but it shouldn't have to be that close of one.
The way they've let players get charges by getting to spots late and rewarding charge calls has us where we are today in regards to these types of fouls. Jordan Morgan should even likely have fewer charge calls than he does, though he does well, overall, at usually getting to a spot and actually being set.
I know it's a bit lame to have reviewed this stupid call like I have but to me the proof is there; again, it's a close call in a way and yes I've/we've had time to hash it out unlike the officials but I don't see why it's that hard to see a player moving and another actually avoiding the defender pretty well and gettin a shot off. To me was a no call.
February 23rd, 2014 at 12:49 AM ^
The fact that his "feet are sliding" is an oft-repeated irrelevant reason when announcers describe a block/charge.
I'm not even saying it was a charge, just wanted to point that out. And the fact that you have to play it 0.1 seconds at a time to make a determination says to me one cannot say this is an egregiously bad call either way.
February 23rd, 2014 at 1:02 AM ^
While you are correct to say that sliding does not make contact a per se block, such movement is absolutely relevant in determining if an off-the-ball defender established legal guarding position before the offensive player's upward motion.
February 23rd, 2014 at 1:16 AM ^
That's the detail people leave out or don't understand.
In this case, I am going by memory, but I think he moved in two steps- moved into position and the slid a second step. The question becomes if he established LGP before the slide. If he did, then by rule he can be moving/sliding and still have LGP and still draw the charge.
February 23rd, 2014 at 9:53 AM ^
February 22nd, 2014 at 10:56 PM ^
There is a lot of subjectivity in basketball, but there really isn't a good way to get around it. I think it becomes more of a factor when they are stricter on calls and don't let the guys play.