OT: Cardale Jones 'a poor man's JaMarcus Russell'
Some NFL scouts were none too impressed with Cardale Jones, both in terms of mechanics and intellect. Here's the writeup on Jones:
CARDALE JONES, Ohio State (6-5, 250, 4.80, 4-5): Non-qualifier out of Cleveland Glenville High under coach Ted Ginn Sr., redshirted in 2012 and was third string in 2013-'14 until injuries struck. Played spectacularly in three-game stint culminated by a national title. Started eight of the first nine games in '15 before being benched for J.T. Barrett, then declared a year early. "You can't pass a talent like that," said one scout. "If you're going to bet on one, bet on a guy with all the talent if he shows you enough want-to." Passer rating of 97.2, rushed for 617 yards. "Kind of reminds me of a poor man's JaMarcus Russell," said another scout. "At least JaMarcus had some touch. This guy just throws the ball. His mechanics are all over the place." Added a third scout: "Strong arm. Big, big body. Not the brightest cookie in the world. I worry about him when he gets money in his pocket. I just don't know if it's all there mentally." Wonderlic of 25.
Poor man's JaMarcus Russell? That's low.
Link
Edit. Should really put my thoughts on Jones in here instead of letting scouts trash him. His arm is incredible and he should have left last year. Meyer has only ever put one QB in the NFL for any real length if time - Alex Smith. I attribute that to an offense which allows QBs to get away with non-NFL habits. For example, defenses were so afraid of Elliot that Jones could stare down a receiver or only focus on two receivers instead of the whole progression. If Jones had left last year, he would have developed and retained fewer of these bad habits. He is a project. The right coach can work with that big arm of his but much patience is required.
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What does he mean "when he gets money"? Doesn't this scout know he went to O$U? He's probably going to take a pay cut.
Waaaaiit a second. I think this is a trick. Isn't JaMarcus Russell already a poor man's JaMarcus Russell?
April 22nd, 2016 at 11:34 AM ^
April 22nd, 2016 at 11:36 AM ^
April 22nd, 2016 at 10:39 AM ^
JaMarcus Russell a rich man's Cardale Jones?
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Is it possible to have a lower floor than Russell?
52% completion
18 TD 23 picks
70 sacks in only 680 passes and oh yeah 25 fumbles, the guy dribbles more than Iverson.
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On one hand, if you're already smart you can do well even if you don't try hard, which is the point. But you can prep for it, and there's pressure on QBs to do well on the Wonderlic, so they actually prepare for it. So even the dumb ones punch above their weight, especially the ones whose brains are openly questioned.
That makes the Wonderlic rather cyclical. Richard Sherman got something like a 24; Manziel got a 32. I think Sherman's quite a bit smarter than Manziel, but when it came to the Wonderlic he had nothing to prove. He'd already gotten into Stanford (toughest Big 5 program to qualify for) and CB is considered a "dumb" position anyway. No one there falls down the draft board for crapping on the Wonderlic, so they don't waste the time.
So are you saying that Sherman is "smarter" than Manziel because manziel is an addict? Addiction cuts across social and intellectual demographics.
Dude.... that's not at all what he was saying. Read his post and save your fake outrage for a different medium today.
The thing about Stanford is that they don't guarantee admission to scholarship athletes, which AFAIK is unique among Power 5 programs. Harbaugh didn't get him in (in fact he wasn't even there yet). But FWIW I've also seen video room clips where Sherman breaks down plays, and he just seemed like a really sharp guy. He's crazier on the field but I've seen that as well.
Manziel strikes me as a "book smart" guy -- he's Texas royalty so he pretty much got the best education money can buy (that his brain could handle anyway). His Wonderlic was probably as close to his ceiling as it could get.
April 22nd, 2016 at 10:48 AM ^
April 22nd, 2016 at 11:05 AM ^
Didn't Michigan say he didn't qualify academically? Each school has their own requirements but that's a thing at every school.
My point is that if you qualify AND you have a scholarship, at most FBS programs, the expectation is you're in. If the recruit meets the academic requirements, Admissions doesn't have a say. With Stanford it's the other way around; as I understand it you can qualify and have a scholarship in hand but Admissions can veto the football program for their own reasons.
admissions vetoes players too. Dorsey wasn't a good example. How about Adrian Witty, who was qualified but rejected late by Michigan admissions? They were others rejected before signing day while having no issues qualifying. Anthony Standifer decommitted for that reason. Possibly we'd have had Treadwell if not for that.
Wisconsin has rejected a number of commits recently. That's perhaps the biggest reason their coach bolted. It's tough when your recruits can't get in and switch to MSU. It's tougher when you're Wisconsin and not Stanford. While a very good school, Wisconsin doesn't have the allure of Stanford or a few other schools for recruits focused on academics.
April 22nd, 2016 at 10:13 AM ^
No, he thinks that Sherman is "smarter" than Manziel becuase Sherman is black.
April 22nd, 2016 at 10:22 AM ^
Racism much?
April 22nd, 2016 at 10:51 AM ^
April 22nd, 2016 at 11:00 AM ^
No, he's saying Sherman is smarter than Manziel because that's patently obvious if you've paid attention to both of them.
of his high school class.
April 22nd, 2016 at 10:38 AM ^
If you're not all there mentally, you don't get a 25 on the Wonderlic. You get a 15 or something. If the right team, like the Steelers for instance, take Jones, he will be the steal of this draft.
April 22nd, 2016 at 10:50 AM ^
I took the "not all there mentally" to mean more that he doesn't focus and concentrate well as a quarterback, not that he's less smart than the average individual. It seems like he just doesn't have a ton of drive and focus, which is concerning to NFL scouts.
'Dale's first few years in Columbus were spent playing X-Box instead of preparing for the game, since he figured he'd never play anyway. He's admitted as much. So it doesn't surprise me when NFL teams pause on the fact that he might drift away if he isn't expected to contribute on the field. Not the best attitude, but something I expect from a 19-year-old. We'll see if he's different as a 22-year old.
April 22nd, 2016 at 11:25 AM ^
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Passover starts today. So..
Does anyone else find these board posts shitting on our rivals' draft prospects embarrassing? As if we've had a slew of first rounders over the recent years...
I get what you mean. It seems kinda petty and sad, but at the same time the compariosn of Jones to Russell is too true not to talk about. Plus I know our rivals do the same. I live in Ohio and all they talk about are their draft picks and how big of a "dick" Harbaugh is. So we're not alone in talking about our rivals.
April 22nd, 2016 at 10:08 AM ^
Yeah Harbaugh the dick and urbz the saint, I can see their logic....
/smh
really.
Jones isn't a Buckeye anymore. Neither is Cook a Spartan. As far as I'm concerned they're now NFL prospects. They're fair game and by far the cruelest words about them won't be written here. (I speak for myself but to be fair, I'm pretty brutal with UM draft prospects as well.)
And if I was running an NFL team, honestly, I wouldn't touch either of them. OSU is kind of the antithesis of a QB factory; Meyer runs a terrifically efficient offensive scheme that puts athletic demands on the QB to -- combined with the other parts -- stress opposing defenses at all 11 positions. I hate to say this about a rival but when that offense is on, it's fantastic. It works because there's almost always a stopgap somewhere on the field at the college level. But for the same reason, Meyer QBs usually don't do well in the pros because they can't rely on that combination of scheme and athletic dominance. Every defender that stands on an NFL field was a playmaker at the college level.
To be even more blunt about it, most Meyer QBs aren't really QBs; that's how OSU went all the way to third string without skipping a beat. They do have to practice QB stuff but overall they're converted skill position players who project to WR, RB or TE at the next level, at which point they run into competition far closer in athleticism. For example, at 6'5" & 250, Jones could probably play TE, but is he really going to be better than, say, Jake Butt? Yeah Butt probably projects as a first-rounder, but consider there are drafts every single year and roster sizes are fixed. Jones has a shot, but that's it. Not everyone is Cam Newton.
As for Cook, since I mentioned him (he's got his own thread), MSU ran a simplified scheme for him, which is a huge red flag for a pro-style QB. That's not completely in his control, but generally you want to pack their heads as much as possible, so if they didn't, that usually means they couldn't.
I think this is pretty well-argued, but I especially disagree with your final conclusion. I've got no love for Connor Cook. (I probably like Cook better than his teammates and his mother like him - although, in fairmness, those folks absolutely hate Cook.). That said, Cook ran MSU's scheme well. At no point did he look overwhelmed in the system, and his teams won a lot of games.
To extrapolate that into "Cook's probably not that bright" seems unfounded. I never caught a whiff of MSU being frustrated with his development. I think their OC ran his scheme, Cook was adept at running it, and they had overall success with him. If there was evidence of them having to cut back the playbook, that would be more of an indicator that Cook is a stupid jackass (rather than a regular-ol'-jackass). I saw none of that.
I did make sure to mention it's not in his control. If the OC wants to run a scheme simpler than what the QB is capable of executing, that's not a decision the QB can override.
It does, however, make Cook's ability to break down an NFL coverage far more difficult to assess. So he executed a simple college scheme well. OK, but again, we're evaluating his NFL potential and what I see is a college-level Guy, not someone who's basically bored playing against college talent. I'm not ruling out the possibility he might blow me away because MSU left a ton of talent undeveloped, but I just find that unlikely. I'll concede I can't prove it, but usually OCs lament they can't get enough into college QBs' heads. I did say "wouldn't touch him" but maybe I can walk that back to a 3rd day pick if he's still on the board?
When it comes to schemes hiding a diamond in the rough I think that's more the case of Gardner, who was criminally misdeveloped in an extremely turbulent program yet showed flashes of a very high ceiling. I honestly have no idea how good he might've been; he exploded in all directions. Cook was reliable, played very well at the college level, that's good, but you know, so did Jeremy Gallon. When I'm looking at players through an "NFL prospect" lens I'm looking for some level of transcendence and in that context, my assessment of Cook is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Again, he could defy my prediction, but I don't think I'm going "hurr durr MSU player sucks" either.