Opinion piece from Kelly Lytle, Rob's son
This is an opinion piece from Kelly Lytle, Rob Lytle's son. https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2023/02/05/my-father-played-nfl-super-bowl-football-caused-death/11129114002/
I share the same draw to football as Kelly, as well as the same thought that we enjoy the game we love so much while we also know that so many will be affected so brutally after their days of football are over by CTE and other ailments.
A couple of things really changed my mind on the effects of the game:
1) Reading an article on Conrad Dobler, the meanest man in the NFL, who was later reduced to a shell of himself because of knee and back issues. He was one the players who was screwed over by the owners and the players association for not giving him the healthcare he needed in his later years.
2) When Mike Ditka, another tough guy, was interviewed and he said that knowing what he knows now, that he wouldn't let his own son play football. That pretty much wrapped it up for me.
Sorry this is a bit of a buzzkill, but I sometimes feel guilty for loving college football so much.
February 5th, 2023 at 5:58 PM ^
Yeah it's tough. My 7 year old loves to play catch and throw and loves all things football. Everytime there's an injury on tv I tell him this is why I don't want you playing football.
Sucks, but you only have one body. Hard for me as a parent to put my kid in that situation considering the dangers, short term and long term.
Furthermore, and perhaps this is an additional part of football allure is that it's a sport you can only play for so long. So many other sports, baseball (ok it turns into softball probably when you hit a certain age), basketball, tennis, golf etc. Can be lifelong sports that one can play generally safely for decades past your prime years.
February 5th, 2023 at 6:52 PM ^
The Villages down in Florida have baseball leagues for all the different age groups. For most of us it turns into softball at some point but apparently some die with their spikes on at old ages.
February 5th, 2023 at 9:47 PM ^
Good to hear of something normal taking place at The Villages…
NTTAWWT
February 5th, 2023 at 11:09 PM ^
You should vote of the type of ball play. Apparently you can vote more than once at the Villages.
February 6th, 2023 at 6:23 AM ^
If they hang their baseball spikes from their golf carts what does that signal?
February 6th, 2023 at 11:30 AM ^
Don't confuse youth and high school sports with D1 sports.
While there are risks involved with all sports, the vast majority of players of youth and high school football take away a lot of positives with very low risk of lasting injuries.
Every sport has its risks. I played baseball, football and basketball. I have one lasting injury and it is my shoulder from years of pitching. No injuries (major or minor) at all from years of football. I had a severe ankle sprain in high school playing basketball. My oldest plays varsity soccer and he's probably been concussed at least once from playing a ball with his head. There are countless blow knees and ankles from basketball and soccer.
Again, I'm not saying football is incredibly safe. Rather everything in life has risks. And don't compare the energy involved in collisions in Power 5 college and NFL football with future accountants and dentists bumping into each other in high school.
February 8th, 2023 at 12:39 PM ^
Fair points.
February 6th, 2023 at 12:31 PM ^
My nephew was a great hockey player as a youth and through college. He played defense and had to do a lot of hip checking. He needed a hip replacement at age 28.
Most sports include an element of danger, but with football it's the concussion and CTE issues that put it in a different class.
February 5th, 2023 at 6:09 PM ^
All sports carry with then am element of risk. Football, boxing/MMA, hockey…these sports in particular obviously have elevated risks of serious injury. Baseball days significant risks too.(for fans and players alike)
Football is what it is and has been for over 100 years. The risk has always been there even if people like to think that they are just now aware of it.
One of the greats regrets of my life is not having player football. My dad used to be disappointed too, but now says that he is glad that I did not.
Many entertainers die well before old agent we don’t scrutinize why as much as we do football. My question is why? Why does it not bother us that so many actors and musicians die/died so early in life from what are preventable causes? Why do so many suffer from addiction and/of mental health issues yet there is no national movement?
Why do fixate on one tree in a forest?
February 5th, 2023 at 6:16 PM ^
Your argument makes me embarrassed for you.
Just because something has always been done doesn't make it okay, dude. Segregation used to be done. Cocaine used to be legally sold at pharmacies.
And there's no evidence that "entertainers" die younger than everyone else.
February 5th, 2023 at 6:29 PM ^
Your post makes me embarrassed for you. I was simply remarking that the entertainment business had a serious issues with people dying well before old age yet we don’t expend any time wondering why this is no.
There was no argument being made. Just an observation.
February 5th, 2023 at 7:56 PM ^
People in the entertainment industry die early because of drugs. We spent the entire Reagan administration dealing with it because Ronnie and Nancy were from Hollywood.
February 5th, 2023 at 8:01 PM ^
You can’t compare the emotional risks actors have to deal with as a character or in the career with the physical damage from football and MMA. And MMA is no better that the gladiators except you dont have weapons, shields, or lions.
February 5th, 2023 at 11:49 PM ^
There are definitely dangers to MMA and Boxing. I'd argue more so that boxing holds a greater risk because it's constant blows to the head whereas MMA has a ton of grappling mixed in.
To compare it to gladiatorial fighting? Just absurd.
Tell me your age without telling me your age
February 6th, 2023 at 1:08 AM ^
It is gladiator fighting and it’s stupid. And people die in their 20s.
Age jabs like yours, like any political or non factual jab, only say one thing. That you have no facts or data to back up your point of view so you have to resort to political tricks.
February 6th, 2023 at 2:13 AM ^
Here's some data for you. It created an actual avenue for collegiate wrestlers to continue their careers and earning money for something that they love. Something that was a saving grace mind you as it was not too far off the wake of the Olympics almost getting rid of wrestling entirely. Your dogmatic thoughts on the sport, whether you like it or not, set it back to the 90s where it was considered barbaric like you are proclaiming.
Where's your data by the way? How can you even compare it to gladiator fighting when one was derived in pitting men against each other for the purpose of death to entertain crowds and MMA, a sport with refs, just like any other sport, is for the entertainment of millions of people. It's not for opponents to kill people any more than boxing is. There have been many rules and regulations that have been fine tuned over the years to keep it safe as possible, much like football.
I don't see how you can draw a comparison with a straight face yet ironically withhold the facts of your "data" of how it's the same as gladiatorial combat.
Instead, you strawmanned your entire argument to me off of one statement I made about your age. Which, since you aren't disclosing, I'm guessing I wasn't far off the mark.
You're just being intellectually dishonest about the conversation by calling out one single sentence instead of the rebuttal I made as a whole.
February 7th, 2023 at 3:57 AM ^
You could have eliminated the childish age comment. That’s not my fault.
You still haven’t provided any data. Instead you exposed a valid emotional point about a career path for wrestlers. I feel that.
But actually the WWF was always a career path.
You’ve also highlighted that it’s really a sad statement about mankind that a fantastic sport like wrestling, that is safe and has safety in mind, has to turn into a gladiator like competition to attract fans. And, that the only reason we allow it is because someone is making a heck of a lot of money (not the athletes) and because it hasn’t been around long enough to see the long term human damage.
MME is more of a death sentence than a lifeline to wrestlers. You think we need data to know where all these blows to the head and body will end up 20 years from now without even the slightest rules or protection like we have in football and boxing?
MME was started to see which martial arts discipline was tougher. Which one would win. If you know the history, the answer has been that the winners have changed from one to the other. The real answer is that they all lose long term.
I lived with the wrestling team at Michigan. They all have long term futures and they are healthy coaches and professionals across many careers. Despite the cauliflower ears.
February 6th, 2023 at 3:18 PM ^
I genuinely don't understand your point. You don't think there's ever been discussion re the pressures and scrutiny of entertainment, and the all-to-easy path that fame leads to drug abuse? I mean. Probably not on the Mgoboard because this is a place for Michigan sports. But um, yeah, it's not some hidden topic.
February 5th, 2023 at 6:30 PM ^
Recognizing harm helps make changes.
100+ years ago, football was a killing field. In 1905 Teddy Roosevelt—whose son played football for Harvard—convened college presidents to urge reform.
They issued a statement but—surprise, surprise—did little. Among the continuing deaths and injuries, Roosevelt's son's nose was broken. Columbia and Northwestern dropped football, Stanford and Cal switched to rugby.
But in 1906 the forerunner of the NCAA crafted radical rule changes to make the sport safer. They did not know however about the long-term problems we've since learned about
This info is from the "History" site. Though I can't vouch for each detail, the account matches my understanding of the early reforms.
https://www.history.com/news/how-teddy-roosevelt-saved-football
February 5th, 2023 at 6:49 PM ^
The sport was still dangerous. The reforms merely provided the illusion that the sport was safer. An illusion people were willing to accept because they enjoyed the sport.
There is no way to make safe sports that involve humans hitting, punching, kicking, or slamming into one another.
February 5th, 2023 at 7:24 PM ^
I'm not quite sure i understand your point -- seriously.
There's no way to make the sport safer? That's silly. Dozens of kids were dying playing college football each year in the first decade of the 20th century. Suggesting that football isn't safer now than when they played without helmets is silly. Especially when you consider how much bigger, faster, and stronger players are today.
I actually agree with the OP that it may well still be too dangerous. But "there is no way to make safe sports" (sic) is ... again, I'm not quite sure I understand. It may well be that there's no way to make them absolutely safe, but ... safer? Of course there is. Don't let the players carry guns, for instance. That makes it safer.
Also ... yes, that's the OP's point. This may well be a sport that's unacceptably dangerous.
What's ... what's your point?
Sorry. I honestly don't know if you're agreeing, disagreeing, or ... what.
February 5th, 2023 at 7:37 PM ^
No matter what we do the sport will always be danger. That never changed.
We ameliorated to a certain extent of some of the danger with helmets and new rules, but that doesn’t eliminate or even drastically reduce the possibility of serious injury.
The point is that regardless of what we did/do the sport was then and is now a dangerous sport. That was made clear in my initial post.
February 5th, 2023 at 10:37 PM ^
I just learned a new word and its usage & definition.
The MGoBoard Difference!
February 5th, 2023 at 7:51 PM ^
Some long term injuries can be attributed to the physical sport, especially head trauma, no question...but many of the non head injuries are also due to a poor lifestyle and diet these very large humans live, not allowing the nucleotides to heal. So cannot blame it all on NFL. See some former players still 350 lbs and can't walk .. hard for joints improve to full function eating mcDonalds all the time... If gonna assign blame, then that needs to be said.
I think it's appalling the QBs get the lion share of contract money while the others get most of the head injuries, and the NFLPA should curb that top end QB salary and raise the others salary across the board.
February 5th, 2023 at 8:00 PM ^
I don't see much distinction. These are things these guys did to their bodies to play this game.
February 6th, 2023 at 8:59 AM ^
I think it's appalling the QBs get the lion share of contract money while the others get most of the head injuries, and the NFLPA should curb that top end QB salary and raise the others salary across the board.
Salaries are not determined by how much risk a person takes, but by how much perceived value that person brings. This is true in the NFL as well as in other enterprises.
February 6th, 2023 at 9:22 AM ^
Segregation used to be done. Cocaine used to be legally sold at pharmacies
And in true board fashion, here's where a thread goes off the rails and into politics and pissing contests for absolutely ZERO reasons related to the original post.
Some of you all are predictable if anything.
Well done all for not being able to turn it off for a while.
February 6th, 2023 at 10:42 AM ^
If it’s not ok, I assume you don’t watch football?
February 6th, 2023 at 4:48 PM ^
Your argument makes me embarrassed for you.
Just because something has always been done doesn't make it okay, dude. Segregation used to be done. Cocaine used to be legally sold at pharmacies.
So you were nasty to the guy then put legal cocaine in the same category as segregation? Cocaine should be sold at pharmacies. And if you want to compare primitive ideas, then compare drug illegality to segregation. Drug illegality is the single most immoral and intellectually indefensible thing the government does by a wide margin.
The illegality of drugs has killed hundreds of thousands if not into the millions more people than any reduced number of deaths from making cocaine illegal. Mexico is a narco state because of drug illegality not the drugs themselves. The violence that occurs on the US border is purely from drug illegality.
From a Harvard economist. https://law.asu.edu/sites/default/files/pdf/academy_for_justice/6_Reforming-Criminal-Justice_Vol_1_Drug-Prohibition-and-Violence.pdf
"Thus, approximately 39% of total homicides resulted from the inability of drug-market participants to settle disputes using the official dispute-resolution system"
February 5th, 2023 at 6:24 PM ^
First of all, I'm guessing you didn't watch the movie Concussion. Feel free to comment after you watch it.
Secondly, what illness/infirmity is caused by being an entertainer? And one that's preventable? If you're referring to the use of drugs, that's not even close to being an analogy.
February 5th, 2023 at 6:32 PM ^
Entertainers, like politicians and athletes, can be subject to Terminal Self Regard.
February 5th, 2023 at 6:45 PM ^
Firstly, I am well aware of concussions in football. But as I pointed out previously football has ALWAYS poised life altering risks.The sport was nearly banned a century ago.
But now the handwringing? When we have known for a century that the sport is dangerous?
The reality is that everyone put the dangers in the back of their minds until science and journalism brought up CTE. Now the conscious’ are shaken.
Secondly, entertainers have been dying from drug and alcohol abuse for decades. Drug/alcohol addiction and mental health are medical issues and it seems that many entertainers are afflicted. Why is this?
I am not even saying that entertaining others is a cause, but it is strange that so many entertainers lives have been so profoundly impacted by the above issues.
Anyways, the point was not to argue that CTE is not a serious issue. It very much is so. But the sport has been dangerous since its inception and people have chosen to ignore that. CTE has been around a long time. It’s just that now we have a term for it.
It seems to me that that the concern is a measure more of people’s conscious guilt and embarrassment at their ignoring the brutal nature of the sport. People say they are concerned but then turn around and watch the games.
Okay.
February 5th, 2023 at 7:03 PM ^
Salvatore,
yes, some people were not aware of the risk of football and then became aware and felt differently. Some people knew there was serious risk and didn’t care. But it’s not correct to say people are just waking up to it now. There have been groups of people calling for the cancellation of football, due to its health risks, for well over 100 years.
Seth could probably tell us more but I’m certain newspapers 100+ years ago had opinion pieces calling for football to end due to the unique risks of playing the game.
As for your comparison to entertainers, I don’t even know what to do with that. Regardless, that risk is not inseparable from entertaining. The risks in football cannot be removed.
February 5th, 2023 at 7:08 PM ^
Duderstadt's book takes a good look at the early years of CFB and has a lot of citations to such sources. I'll try to dig up the book if I have time tonight. But they're there if folks have a copy.
February 5th, 2023 at 7:24 PM ^
I never said that they were just waking up to it now. I said that people over the decades were ignoring the nature of the sport.
My reference to entertainers was both a question and a statement. The question being that why have so many entertainers over the entire length of the existence of the modern entertainment industry have had their lives shortened by mental health and drug/alcohol addiction issues? That so many entertainers over so many decades have experienced these problems suggests that there is something amiss within the industry.
The statement is that various industries have serious problems that may or may not be “separable” yet go uncovered because…reasons. We are guided what to think and what to think about by media and activists. That has positives and negatives.
It’s like we are sitting in front of a dark forest yet we see only a clump of trees because only those trees are being spotlighted.
February 5th, 2023 at 7:59 PM ^
The entertainment industry has a surplus of drugs, money and spare time.
February 6th, 2023 at 9:37 AM ^
I think they should make them wear helmets.
February 5th, 2023 at 8:03 PM ^
A friend of mine says if they went back to leather helmets and light pads, the game would change and you wouldn't see head injuries like this, because the players won't dare risk themselves without a hard helmet. I wonder how that would play out. I think he's right.
February 5th, 2023 at 8:10 PM ^
I think I agree with him. Remove that hard shell and facemask and you get a better sense of how vulnerable your head is.
Form tackling improves overnight.
February 6th, 2023 at 8:01 AM ^
I can't say I am an expert in this area, but it seems that most conversations in this area lead to one expert saying that eliminating face masks would help tremendously. I thought the stats say that the frequency and severity of concussions and knee injuries in soccer are comparable to those in football.
February 6th, 2023 at 8:18 AM ^
Rugby players don't tackle with their heads for a reason. I wonder what the stats are for concussions in rugby relative to football.
February 6th, 2023 at 9:27 AM ^
I used to think not being all armored up in rugby as in football would imply rugby players suffered less concussions due to an emphasis on form.
That's not the case apparently:
Concussion rates were 1.0/1000 AEs in football versus 2.5/1000 AEs in rugby.
^ There's lots of links confirming as such... not going to post every one of them. Hopefully this communicates the idea.
February 5th, 2023 at 6:50 PM ^
Sal, I agree with you. At least from what I hear you’re trying to communicate. Mike Ditka could’ve been presented with the possibilities of CTE while he was playing and die would wager all that I have that he wouldn’t have changed a thing.
Essentially today’s game proves that. Unless a current NFL player doesn’t have their eyes open, they know that they’re at serious risk of being impaired later on in life. Yet very very few actually choose to retire.
You could say the same things with musicians, like Dave Grohl, Huey Lewis, and so many others who is hearing is unimaginably impaired after decades of playing. Yet I don’t think there’s a musician in their shoes that would quit playing because of knowing hearing loss is a real possibility in their 50’s and older.
February 5th, 2023 at 6:57 PM ^
Football is an inherently brutal sport. No rules implemented short of banning hitting will change that. To make football safe will require to make it a non contact sport.
But then it is no longer the sport we fell in love with. The violence is part of why we love it.
I would miss the sport if it went away, but I would understand 100% why if it does.
February 5th, 2023 at 7:05 PM ^
But your comparison was to entertainers dying of substance abuse? Or just dying young at all? Seems like those risks can be completely separated from show business whereas the risks in football, we agree cannot.
February 5th, 2023 at 7:32 PM ^
More to substance abuse and mental health,So many have died and so many continue to struggle. Demi Lovato nearly OD a few years ago for example. It’s something that has bothered me for awhile.
I am wondering if those issues are because of the entertainment industry. Because it seems Hollywood is plagued disproportionately by cases of drug addiction and mental health crises. I am not at all sure that the two can be separated.
I guess what I am saying is that the entertainment industry needs to be investigated as well.
(Obviously some of the deaths were due to things like accidents and homicide which aren’t really things an industry can control.)
February 5th, 2023 at 8:21 PM ^
High rates of depression in entertainment are related to the nature of the career. I don’t know if that needs an explanation. Higher rates of drug use are easily and partly due to medicating the depression.
Depression, though difficult, is treatable. The physical and brutal damage to the body from football is not.
February 5th, 2023 at 7:43 PM ^
There is way to much money, glory, and frankly fun playing football. I doubt it’s going away.
I am not exactly sure what the definition baseline is for a concussion but I don’t think I played a single game at the high school level without having some type of jarring head impact, including a couple of times where they gave me smelling salts.
I can’t imagine with the size and speed now of college level kids and NFL players that most players don’t have some level of head trauma every single game.
The difference is we now have researched proof of the damage and how devastating the effects can actually be.
February 5th, 2023 at 9:05 PM ^
This is an EXCELLENT parallel point about entertainers and they very different reaction to what happens to many of them. Very well done!
February 5th, 2023 at 9:22 PM ^
This one needed another scrub--and some self-scrutiny, Salvatore. The subject of the POST is football. This is mgoblog. People DO question all sorts of sh*t. Right now we're talking football, and the tragic demise of a former Michigan player.