Old Bo Quote on Integrity
There's an old Bo quote at this fabulous tribute for Woody Hayes (video: here, well worth watching). It struck me as the major difference between then and now:
"The most important [thing we've learned from Woody] is integrity. Without integrity, there is no joy and no fun in coaching. There is no happiness in success when it wasn't done within the rules. We learned that a long time ago. And I can promise you: I compete against these fellows every day of recruiting season. And when I go up against them, I know it's grant-in-aid vs grant-in-aid, and that's the only way we have been taught to compete." (note: "grant-in-aid" refers to a scholarship)
Because so many coaches - Bo, Lou Holtz, etc. - of that era were from the Woody tree, Woody's (seemingly ethical) behavior, esp. regarding recruiting, dictated the rules for the Big Ten. While fierce competitors, they didn't cheat during recruiting. It meant, quite simply, that Michigan had a better chance in that world.
Contrast to now, and look at places like Clemson, Alabama, and now (seemingly) OSU, esp. thanks to Urban: they are finely tuned recruiting machines, where money goes in, and players come out. Clemson even has connected this whole operation to a church (look up New Spring Church if you're interested), in some kind of warped mastermind sort of way.
I saw a quote from Urban Meyer the other month (sorry, lost the source). He was kind of being asked about winning at all costs, or perhaps winning when you didn't deserve it. His answer was pretty simple: "It's a lot better to be singing your fight song after a win over your rival" (or something like that). For him, there is happiness in winning, period. Unfortunately, it may be why the rivalry really isn't, and won't be, a rivalry anymore.
December 5th, 2020 at 9:11 AM ^
If you subscribe to a religion/philosophy where ethics matter, then there are things better than "win at all costs".
December 5th, 2020 at 11:32 AM ^
Big money does that to certain people.
December 5th, 2020 at 1:18 PM ^
Winning breeds winning. If all else is equal, schools will sell their souls for top talent. OSU can offer everything that Michigan can plus championships, cars, tattoos, and a whole lot more. Remember, they're not just trying to beat Michigan, they want to beat Bama, Clemson, Georgia, etc. Recruiting is a the game within the game. A lot of the time, you gotta pay to play at the top. There's a reason the CFB elite do it-- it works extremely well. I've had recruits tell me straight up that everything you hear about the bribery and promises that happen during recruiting is true. I imagine some deals are simply too good to turn down.
I believe Jim Harbaugh's program is built on the ethics of Bo and won't play dirty to win. I think there's a type of player that Michigan appeals to, but it's not for everyone. Unfortunately, this puts them at a disadvantage and makes it hard to have a roster loaded with 5*s competing at every position. Compounding the issue, talented depth is tempted to transfer if they don't see a quick path to playing time.
Just my opinion, but I think the NIL stuff coming through could really help even the playing field across CFB. Right now schools like Michigan are playing with one hand behind their back in recruiting. We see it in their depth charts and their on field results.
Also just my opinion, but I believe program continuity can help schools punch above their recruiting rankings to an extent, but even rock solid programs like Wisconsin struggle to compete against the elite.
We can fire Jim, but unless Michigan goes the Georgia route, I don't think that will fix the problem. We need more difference makers on the roster and those guys are extremely hard to land.
December 5th, 2020 at 3:50 PM ^
You can complain that Michigan can't compete with OSU because they won't get dirty, fine. But that does not explain why they can't beat an equally clean and severely less talented MSU team, and why they are overmatched by the worst PSU team since Franklin took over.
If we are finishing 11-1 every year and the only loss is to OSU, fine that's an argument worth having about ethics. We are not. We are getting dominated by Wisconsin and PSU, who are on the same levels of Michigan in terms of cheating. What's the excuse for THAT?
December 5th, 2020 at 9:13 AM ^
We are able to recruit the talent that brings us close to them. Not equal, but close enough that we should be able to win the Big Ten and make the playoff every now and then.
If the problem is that we are holding players to the standard of actually doing their school work like the rest of the student body, as opposed to taking online classes that are easy As and require only only an hour or two of work a week so they can spend 100+ hours on football, then I don't see the harm in giving players that option. I have no idea if that's even the case, because the struggles have been inexplicable and I'm just grasping for something.
But I don't believe that our recruiting has fallen short enough for us to have anything to gain by bagmanning the recruits.
December 5th, 2020 at 9:39 AM ^
totall agree with your point. The biggest problem we have with recruiting is not allocating proper resources to our needs. Its great to have a top ten class but when you neglect DT and CB you sabotage the rest of the team. The other thing is, it seems Harbaugh is actually recruiting like it is 1975. Teams would take a lot of running backs and convert some of the to DB's and LB's. That doesn't work as well now. Players are so much more specialized by the time they get to college.
December 5th, 2020 at 11:01 AM ^
If Michigan has had a coherent recruiting strategy over the last several years, I've not seen it.
December 5th, 2020 at 11:01 AM ^
Yeah we are playing two different games. There’s the “student-athlete” model where you at least try to get the kids an education and a college experience and then there’s the “semi-pro” model of doing the bare minimum the rules require for education and pay only lip service to anything other than football.
doesn’t fix our many other issues currently plaguing this coaching staff but good to keep in mind if and when the next coach comes in and still loses to the football factories sometimes.
December 5th, 2020 at 9:14 AM ^
Look at Bill Self, Meyer, Sean Miller:
the guys that are suspected (or in some cases proven) cheaters do not enjoy their craft. It is the consequence of compromising your integrity to win no matter what.
Beilein was the best of the best. Harbaugh still has his integrity - we are just longing for him to break through. Howard seems to be the real deal, too - in terms of integrity. Hopefully he can win at the highest levels without cheating
Sports are always exercise and diversion at their root - I still prefer coaches with integrity vs a coach who will win at all costs. I know this may not be the majority take anymore, but integrity means a lot.
December 5th, 2020 at 10:11 AM ^
I agree with what you say... Unfortunately, I no longer think Harbaugh can get that 'break through'. I do believe the team is talented enough to improve its current standing, though, so a new coach doesn't necessarily need to start from scratch.
December 5th, 2020 at 10:21 AM ^
Does Indiana, MSU, every team we play in a bowl also cheat? Or could it be that we just don’t have very good coaching compared to the schools we play?
December 5th, 2020 at 10:45 AM ^
Don’t set up a straw man argument - I never claimed harbaugh and staff did not fail against Indiana or msu, or in bowl games for that matter. I also never insinuated that those teams cheated to beat us. The coaching issue is a whole separate discussion/ one where most of us would agree: this staff has failed. This failure has nothing to do with integrity.
By the way, using Indiana as an example as a team that beats Michigan without cheating once in 33 years is not a very strong example.
December 5th, 2020 at 10:53 AM ^
I think an eight-team playoff will generate more integrity. Obviously Clemson, Alabama, and OSU have created a recruiting monopoly. Kids want to compete for championships and those three give the best odds. Nothing is going to change until the CFP expands.
December 5th, 2020 at 12:00 PM ^
That’s fair. I do believe teams cheat and I think you’re right throwing Indiana in there is silly. For us to consistently be a top 5 program we’d probably need to cheat but we should at least be a top 15-20 program every year which Harbaugh has failed to do on several occasions.
At the bare minimum we should have been able to win a few games we were the underdogs in Harbaugh’s time.
December 5th, 2020 at 9:15 AM ^
Gotta play by the rules. Except for the rule against doctors abusing athletes. That one’s more of a guideline.
December 5th, 2020 at 2:14 PM ^
Uh, yeah. I don’t know that Bo is really the best person to be using as a bastion of integrity given what’s been revealed within the UM community over the last year.
December 5th, 2020 at 9:16 AM ^
Imagine turning a Kraft Lunchable into an MGoBlog board post. That's what the OP did here.
Also, OP: You put Lou Holtz next to Bo and in doing so suggested some equivalence. I'm not a huge Bo fan, but, seriously? Are you familiar with Holtz's shaky ethics?
December 5th, 2020 at 9:35 AM ^
Totally agree about Holtz. Everywhere he went had problems with ethics. In other words, he cheated to win. I think very poorly of him as he will get in front of a mic. and preach to others all the while he was cheating.
December 5th, 2020 at 9:26 AM ^
The rivalry isn’t much of a rivalry because we never seem to win. Auburn upsets Alabama now and then, Clemson lost to ND this year, Ohio State manages to lose to Wisconsin or Penn State or MSU once every couple of years. Michigan has better talent on paper than Wisconsin or MSU, and just as good as Penn State, but never upsets OSU. Or anyone else, for that matter.
December 5th, 2020 at 10:26 AM ^
Exactly. Texas is in a similar situation with OU as Michigan is with OSU. However, Texas (despite the talent and success differential) gets the fuck up for OU. OU gets their best shot from Texas. Charlie strong fucking won a game against OU and Tom Herman has come close.
Michigan is not at the talent level of OSU, but that does not mean they can't upset OSU every 3-4 years.
December 5th, 2020 at 10:39 AM ^
Tom Herman actually managed to beat Oklahoma in 2018!
December 5th, 2020 at 11:12 AM ^
Auburn = cheating gets you there now and then. Same with LSU, and now UGA
ND / Clemson - ND is doing well, but yeah having your first NFL pick QB out with COVID does have consequences.
December 5th, 2020 at 1:18 PM ^
True. But ND was in the playoffs a few years back too. Other teams rise up now and then and win games they are not supposed to win. For a very long time now, Michigan has not. One wonders why it never seems to happen.
December 5th, 2020 at 9:29 AM ^
This explains everything. Harbaugh, Frost, Herman, Smart, and Helton are almost too righteous to win a championship, no matter how much talent they bring in.
December 5th, 2020 at 9:51 AM ^
Might wanna reconsider Smart being on the list.
December 5th, 2020 at 10:31 AM ^
I was looking for guys who recruit well but don't win anything. Admittedly Smart was a stretch.
My main thought was the OP implying Harbaugh loses because he doesn't cheat doesn't sit well.
December 5th, 2020 at 9:37 AM ^
I'm not mad at Clemson for giving impoverished families money so their kids can play football and sort of go to college. Injecting them with steroids is a problem tho.
I wouldn't care if Michigan gave families money but you know the NCAA would make an example of us while continuing to ignore the FBI investigations at LSU, Arizona, Kansas.
December 5th, 2020 at 9:45 AM ^
I would rather pay kids to go to college to take classes and get out with a meaningful degree that does something positive for society, regardless of their athletic ability... but that's just my opinion.
And it seems that many of these players that are being paid (read: bribed - and illegally at that, at least according to the IRS if not other regulatory agencies) to commit to a college are the same ones that go to various football academies and programs around the country (such as IMG) - which are quite costly. Those don't sound like individuals/families that are so desperately impoverished that, on top of getting their child a full all-expenses paid scholarship to a university, also *need* to have the bagman money to support themselves.
December 5th, 2020 at 10:16 AM ^
Schools like IMG and the various Catholic schools that have national programs hand out 'scholarships' like packets of ketchup at McD's - take as many as you want. In IMG's case, the players/families have to agree to be represented by IMG when they become eligible to be represented. It generally works out for everyone...
December 5th, 2020 at 10:22 AM ^
As private organizations, that is their prerogative. A publicly funded university should be held to a different standard.
The point is that no one should act as though these under-the-table payments are some form of charity to alleviate societal problems. They are profit-motivated actions by individuals/organizations that have no true interest in improving the lives of the players and their families. If that were the case, these people would do their damndest to ensure that the kids were actually receiving a real education (not just checking off attendance for blow-off classes) in addition to any football development they undergo - especially since it only takes on false step to derail an athletic career.
December 5th, 2020 at 11:41 AM ^
Who are you to say the kids aren’t benefiting because they don’t focus on education? What if the kids sole interest is to play football (almost like a trade school). Who are we as a society to say that individuals goal or dream is not important and make a predetermined decision for them?
What I find interesting is the teams that “cheat” ( Bama, Clemson, OSU), do an excellent job of preparing players who’s goals are to go to the NFL and have a successful football career, actually obtain that goal. So the “cheaters” actually help the individual with those goals obtain those goals... kind of ironic
December 5th, 2020 at 1:08 PM ^
The difference is that these universities are not trade schools or football academies - the explicit purpose of these institutions is for academic education, not other "goals" such as NFL.
It amazes me that the people who rail on the internet about how college athletes should be paid aren't instead pushing to support the alternative pathways for players who want to go pro and are not interested in actually getting a college education. These paths exist in every pro sport - even football, although the oligopy of the NCAA and NFL make it more difficult.
December 5th, 2020 at 1:51 PM ^
If all you're interested is academics, then every institution should go the University of Chicago route. Like it or not, football and men's basketball is all about money. The average SAT score for U of M is 1435. If you take a random sample of scores for football players, do you think that they're even close to this average?
I do think you're right about something though. The NFL is a wealthy organization. It should just dispense with the facade and just set up academies for graduating high school seniors to play football, an official minor league. That would probably weed out a lot of the kids who just want to "play school".
December 5th, 2020 at 2:46 PM ^
The cats out of the bag and there’s no putting it back. What do you do with the Big House? Who is going to show up to watch?
December 5th, 2020 at 4:02 PM ^
I never said academics was the only interest. It should be the *primary* interest at these universities - with other pursuits (such as high level competitive sports) also available (and also of highest caliber quality). It is done at many schools (Stanford, NW, etc.) but there is no reason it can't be done at *every* university.
This is not some unachievable utopian ideal - this *was* the reality for the premier schools for most of college football history. Just look at some of the careers of past college football players (actual starters) - you would have politicians, business leaders, doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers, etc. This still happens even now, though to a dramatically lesser extent since the past few decades have seen college football transform into an NFL-lite semi-pro league (exacerbated when the NCAA basically stopped all real efforts at trying to reign in the sport).
Keep in mind that the current dynamic is not the inevitable conclusion - this can all still change if there was the political will within the universities. I agree that, to many, it has become all about the money... thus justifying in their minds several of these trends that are killing the spirit and essence of what college football was.
December 5th, 2020 at 2:19 PM ^
For some reason this education for educations sake only applies to athletes. Everybody is in college for other goals, some of which are only tangentially related to academics. You think a prospective doctor wouldn't "leave early" for med school if that option was available? The only difference is you have decided that athletics are a lesser pursuit.
December 5th, 2020 at 9:38 AM ^
All colleges cheat. All of them. Michigan cheats. The problem is that Michigan is arrogant enough to think that by only breaking the rules a little bit, we have more integrity than all the others.
Like the guy who thinks he is a better husband than the dude next door because he only has one mistress because the other dude has 7.
December 5th, 2020 at 9:48 AM ^
In a few years we will all "cheat" anyway because the rules will change. Because they are dumb, delusional rules that nobody cares about or follows.
Like when nobody was driving only 55 mph on interstates designed for cars to go 70 mph, so they gave up and raised the speed limits to align with sensibility.
December 5th, 2020 at 11:08 AM ^
I read somewhere about the unintended consequences of that 55mph rule -- that traffic fatalities actually went up. The reason was because the highway patrol was monitoring interstates for speeding, so those wishing to go faster took the secondary roads and drove 70mph. Secondary roads have crossings, two-way traffic, etc., so the risk of accident and fatality is higher.
This has absolutely nothing to do with college football, but I found that particular study interesting.
December 5th, 2020 at 11:47 AM ^
The limits have been raised above 55 for years now, and there has been no material increase in accidents, if any at all. It was a capricious and arbitrary rule in the first place.
December 5th, 2020 at 12:35 PM ^
It was implemented during the oil shortage in the 70s to conserve fuel. The problem is, once OPEC started pumping more oil, the speed limit was kept at 55 long after the problem it was meant to address went away. Many laws are like that.
December 5th, 2020 at 10:01 AM ^
More excuses.
As though Michigan plays a different game than these other schools and can't get over the hump because of it.
As though the top-10 classes this program has always brought in over the years are inferior to other teams in the top-10.
As though a team like MSU, who typically brings in classes ranked 30-50 could find their way up for a long stretch, beat OSU, win the Big Ten, make the playoff. They must be filthy!
Poor Michigan. Looks like there's just no hope because Michigan's too good for the rest of the college world.
When Harbaugh was hired, the narrative should have been, "He'll do his best, but he has to play by the rules so don't expect anything too great." Rather than, "This dude is going to restore Michigan to glory and bring us multiple championships."
December 5th, 2020 at 10:27 AM ^
Bingo. This nonsense that the holiest of holy schools Michigan, forced to follow the rules because they choose honor and ethics over winning, has to die.
It may make us feel a bit better after getting our ass kicked, again, by OSU but it's a lie. The rest of the world knows it, if we're being honest, we know it, and it has to end.
December 5th, 2020 at 10:31 AM ^
You are so on point. The majority of my friends are not Michigan fans, and what you highlight is what they mean by "Michigan Arrogance". When people speak about Michigan arrogance, they mean things like us putting ourselves on some pedestal about academics or culture, as if other programs with good academics can't win. Or as if Michigan can't win these games because we are too good to "play dirty".
I intentionally mock Michigan's academics on this blog because of the reaction it gets from the posters, being so smug about Michigan academics and how we view ourselves. People act like Devin Bush or Rashan Gary were fucking Rhodes Scholars here at U of M. Michigan is a good school, but it isn't Stanford or the Ivy League. It is a fucking public school. Get with the times Michigan, provide online classes, allow PE credits, take a chance of JUCO players.
December 5th, 2020 at 10:49 AM ^
Michigan is a very very very good public school, especially in certain programs, like engineering, medicine and law. I would probably take Michigan over a lower rung Ivy like Brown for most things. Agree it’s not like some of the others and generally agree with your overall point.
December 5th, 2020 at 11:25 AM ^
Living in either CA or the South for the last 35 years, I can confirm that no one cares about Michigan or thinks as highly of Michigan as “Michigan grads”.
December 5th, 2020 at 11:48 AM ^
Having lived in both places, I'll offer a couple slight counterpoints:
* Texas (DFW ... somewhat south): I was in an office where almost every school (no TCU, no Houston) in the old SWC was represented. No one put Michigan at the same level as the Ivies or near-Ivies, but everyone knew of its "Public Ivy" reputation and respected it.
* California (Silicon Valley): Same idea. My office was heavy on Stanford and Berkeley. They knew all about Michigan. Illinois, too.
I understand that's not really your point. I wonder if you've just been unfortunate. I know the type (unjustifiably smug Michigan grad) and I occasionally run into them at tailgates. But, I think they're in the minority. I also think Michigan's reputation is largely deserved. Maybe a few people get carried away. That's more than enough for Sparty to get up in arms and stereotype the whole population.
December 5th, 2020 at 11:55 AM ^
That’s not true for California. Very well respected, but not on the same level as some of the other schools out there. The south is different because Michigan grads have not really relocated there.
December 5th, 2020 at 2:06 PM ^
Disagree, I've lived all over the US and have been on long international trips. Michigan is pretty well-regarded, especially our graduate and professional schools. You can probably go pretty much anywhere in the world (pre-Covid that is) and find Michigan alums in some pretty shocking out of the way places and definitely in the major financial and political hubs. Maybe people on the West Coast don't give a crap about our football or basketball teams, because they have their own homegrown institutions, but when you talk about hiring people, it matters.