Offensive or Defensive or Both Advantage
Let’s assume for a second there is an advantage to having signs. Most quotes have been about the defensive side of the ball. “Michigan knows if it’s run or pass.” “Our players could get hurt because Michigan knows where we’re going with the ball.” I don’t believe I’ve seen a quote the claims there is an offensive advantage. Has anyone else seen such a quote? I realize we all believe there really isn’t much of an advantage regardless, but I just find all the pearl clutching about defensive advantage even more misplaced if you can’t stop Michigan from scoring around 40 points a game on average.
November 4th, 2023 at 11:36 AM ^
Let’s not assume for the sake of a discussion that is tied to a witch hunt…
November 4th, 2023 at 1:50 PM ^
Witch pursuit thingy
November 4th, 2023 at 11:37 AM ^
The best offense is a good defense.... or something like that
November 4th, 2023 at 11:38 AM ^
Make it stop
November 4th, 2023 at 11:42 AM ^
[Edit] : I’m here for the posbang.
November 4th, 2023 at 11:42 AM ^
I've been wondering the same thing. The Athletic's attempts at an "inside view" of sign stealing and how it helps/works have been pretty lame. I wish some real reporter would put together an unbiased story on this with a good breakdown of how it worked, play by play, and post-play analysis of the perceived advantage (or not) based on the outcome.
But no one is interested in facts and data analysis. It's boring and complicated.
November 4th, 2023 at 12:45 PM ^
I'd like the analysis to include a significant number of examples where it appeared that Michigan had the other team's signs because they were sniffing out so many plays. You'd think that Klatt and other analysts calling games would've at least made an off the cuff comment that Michigan seems like they're a step ahead of the opponent and/or it looks like they have the correct call an inordinate number of times. I'm not an expert by any means, but I'd think this level of alleged cheating would jump off the screen at least once in a while. So far it seems like the best evidence anyone has is Stalions standing next to coordinators apparently calling out the opponent's signs. Which is legal.
November 4th, 2023 at 11:51 AM ^
Was it in against USC in the Rose Bowl when their players said after the game, in which they had a solid victory, that they knew what we were going to run and they were ready. Where I'm going with this is sometimes, one team outplays another. (Actually, it happens all the time)
I guess that the B1G coaches do not understand that. Michigan now has the superior talent on both sides of the ball so according to them, it's all an illusion.
When it comes to defense, Jesse Minter and his staff can make in-game adjustments. I suppose the opposing teams aren't smart enough to do their own adjustments.
Please, let this shit go away!!
November 4th, 2023 at 11:59 AM ^
I think Ryan day only looks at recruiting rankings and can’t possibly fathom that player development and coaching at Michigan has made such a difference.
November 4th, 2023 at 12:08 PM ^
Not just Ryan, had an OSU fan tell me Michigan is only very good on defense because of sign stealing. After all, Michigan recruiting classes are ranked 20th. Told him 1) he was factual wrong (Michigan has been around 10 in recruiting), 2) then Michigan must be doing a great job of identifying and developing players to have so many NFL draftable players out of so low recruiting classes.
November 4th, 2023 at 11:53 AM ^
Everyone has everyone's signs, so there is no net advantage.
Except Purdue. Watters doesn't know sign stealing is permitted.
November 4th, 2023 at 11:53 AM ^
Better question: Rake leaves? Or work on the snowblower?
November 4th, 2023 at 12:10 PM ^
I gassed up the snowblower yesterday. Plugged the charger in, I'm good to go. Leaves are wet, ugh.
November 4th, 2023 at 1:02 PM ^
Use the snowblower on the leaves!
Taking a quick lunch break after a long morning of leaf blowing. Not too wet, but a lot of them. The oaks have barely started to drop, so I'll be at it at least 3 or 4 more weekends.
November 4th, 2023 at 11:53 AM ^
What an offense wants to know is if the defense is playing man or zone and if they are blitzing. You don’t need to steal signs for this. Man/zone: put a man in motion. Blitzing: hard count.
November 4th, 2023 at 6:04 PM ^
Motion and hard counts are cheating.
November 4th, 2023 at 11:55 AM ^
There is an advantage. The league needs to implement wrist bands or headsets since sign stealing is SO advantageous.
And, what CS was doing is next level. It better be an advantage to mascarade on the sidelines of a CMU game to spy on MSU...
November 4th, 2023 at 12:35 PM ^
You do realize that all big programs have “fans” that film opposing teams signs and send the video to the coaches as a way around this rule, right? When sign stealing is legal, there is no “spirit of the rule” violation. You read the rule as written and you are free to do anything that isn’t explicitly prohibited. That is the entire point of allowing sign stealing. Stalions effed up and committed a violation if he was at the MSU CMU game. But if he paid out of his own pocket for people to go to games and film the sidelines, that is not explicitly prohibited, which means it is allowed. When sign stealing is allowed, one should not have to interpret clearly written rules to mean more than what they mean on their face. This whole “scandal” is a joke.
November 4th, 2023 at 12:00 PM ^
The best sign stealing can do is put you in the right defense to stop whatever the offense is running. You still have to execute. I have yet to see a play where that was obvious.
On offense it can be helpful to know if a blitz is coming or if they're in man or zone, but you can discern most of that from pre alignment and tendencies.
This is really one of the dumbest blow up non controversies ever. Its modern media being directed to run a political hit job because beard boy is butt hurt he really was born on 3rd base.
November 4th, 2023 at 12:02 PM ^
Everyone suspected Michigan was stealing signs because at the top everyone does because its completely legal. Plus OSU is everywhere in this conf and they obviously knew.
Teams knowing this I'm sure baited, changed or used dummy signs or a mix which would've negated or at times ( TCU) hurt Michigan.
This is about destroying the most dominant program in the B1G by a coach that people, outside of Michigan, hate.
If there was an advantage it will be noticeable moving forward. This is what they're trying to stop because as soon as Michigan continues to roll it will be obvious...
November 4th, 2023 at 12:24 PM ^
Brown has written that UM still won the RPS against TCU, so the dummy signs didn’t necessarily help TCU a lot.
November 4th, 2023 at 12:17 PM ^
Stop cluttering up the board with these bs hot takes.
November 4th, 2023 at 12:18 PM ^
Even if all the advantage was on the defensive side of the ball, which I'm not sure it was, it will still benefit the offense. A defensive advantage turns into an offensive advantage through field position, turnovers, or directly into points. There's no way to possibly claim that Michigan's offensive production is without any credit to a improved defense by ill gotten-gains.
November 4th, 2023 at 12:33 PM ^
Everyone knew we were going to run the ball and nobody could stop us. Defensive side of the ball is more complicated.
November 4th, 2023 at 1:07 PM ^
Maybe the most unbelievable claim, coming from opposing B1G coaches apparently, is that the sign stealing thing equates to "about 21 points per game" of an advantage. WTF kind of mental gymnastics does one have to do to come up with that number? Where's the mathematic analysis that goes into that? Why is it not 3 points, or 8 points, or 24.3337876 points, or 41 points? People are just making shit up as they go. So fucking dumb.
November 4th, 2023 at 4:24 PM ^
Especially when about half of big ten games end up like 16-9. There aren't three TD's to go around a lot of times.
November 4th, 2023 at 1:31 PM ^
I don’t know, but Ohio State better get the Day brothers busy at halftime to undo this Rutgers operation that is showing them up. Ryan looks like he’s playing tight time for a tantrum.
November 4th, 2023 at 1:47 PM ^
I just texted my Rutgers buddy how much I would love to see them upset OSU, but that they had better be prepared for some extra scrutiny into their program if they do. There MUST be an explanation.
November 4th, 2023 at 2:25 PM ^
At the HS level (not apples to apples, I know) I have had assistants tell me they figured out the signs mid game. When the talent level was even or we were better, it helped a little. I could get in the call that put our kids in the best position. But the kids didn't know them and they still had to execute the calls. In games where we were clearly outmatched, the offense could have told our kids what they were about to run, and it didn't matter. Oftentimes, I took the suggestion into consideration, but still went with my callsheet based on gameplan
The times it paid off the most was to know if it was run or pass on 3rd downs. But again, kids still have to execute.
I also know there were opponents who had some of my defensive signals. Maybe sometimes it helped them. Sometimes it didn't matter.
November 4th, 2023 at 6:09 PM ^
CHEATER!
But seriously, I don't think sign "stealing" should be in any way against the rules. I guess technically it isn't, but any rules put in place to stop it don't need to be there. Do we stop ban reading defenses? Put in earplugs so players can't hear opposing teams' QB audibles?
If you have people smart enough to figure out signs, actual signs, the other team should have to adjust. It's not all brawn.