Is this not a Josh Gattis offense? Ace and Seth don’t seem to think so.
SIAP
So I’m hoping for a dialogue on what you all are seeing collectively to make you think that Gattis is or is not calling the plays.
Anyone watching this offense can tell it still has influence from Harbaugh, but is that more game planning or is it because on Saturdays he is in control of the plays?
I know Sam Webb all of last year was adamant that this was Josh’s offense, but twice now in the last week I’ve heard stated by Ace and his friends on his podcast as well as today on the Mgoblog roundtable by Seth that part of the solution should be, “let Gattis call his plays and and turn the offense over completely to him”. Is that not already what this is? Did something change and Harbaugh is back to calling everything or is this people grasping at straws trying to find reasons why we are are hot turds?
November 19th, 2020 at 7:13 PM ^
I think everyone agrees JH has his sticky fingers on the O. You want to beat OSU? Let Gattis run wild and see what ya got. Will JH? Nope.
November 19th, 2020 at 7:16 PM ^
I'm sure Harbaugh is overriding Gattis at points. But I've never quite understood why the fanbase thought a guy who tried taking credit for what Mike Locksley did and has run his mouth all over twitter about his SPEED IN SPACE before winning anything was going to change anything here.
November 19th, 2020 at 7:46 PM ^
He was an absolutely horrible hire. I said it at the time, it's been clear since he got here. Never had been an OC. Wasn't promising enough for Saban to promote him to the same position despite it being open, knowing that Gattis would have left to Maryland had he not promoted him. That's how highly Saban thought of him. Joe Moorhead didn't bring him to be OC when he left for Miss St. Hello, GIANT WAVING RED FLAGs. Everyone who had worked with this guy that would know, didn't think he was anything more than a WR coach. It was a master class in how to make a poor hire.
We couldn't possibly know what a Gattis offense looks like since one had never existed prior to him coming to Michigan (and one may not exist now, who knows).
The speculation last year was that after a disastrous first half of the season, Harbaugh and Warriner probably had to put back in much of what they did and what worked the year before. We saw them bring back a bunch of stuff against ND that worked well in 2018.
If that was the case, it appears they tried to let Gattis have another go at it this season, with similar results to what happened in the beginning of last season.
So I'm sure Harbaugh (and Warriner) have a say but I think it's because Gattis is in way over his head.
But I can't imagine if Harbaugh had taken over much of the playcalling that he would have called a 4th and inches play from the shotgun. Whatever they're doing, it's not working.
November 19th, 2020 at 8:03 PM ^
He was an absolutely horrible hire.
And yet a good chunk of folks think the problem lies solely in JH and if he gets canned promoting Gattis to interim. If he can't coach well as a coordinator, how can he do so as a HC?
November 19th, 2020 at 8:09 PM ^
Well, JH made the hire (one of many poor OC hires). But yeah, these people that think Gattis needs a promotion are out of their minds.
I do think he could be a better head coach than coordinator. Being a HC is more about recruiting, delegating, etc. He could be ok at that. PJ Fleck is probably a better HC than coordinator. Brady Hoke is a better HC than coordinator. Coordinating is about being a technician, being creative, being really tight on execution, etc and he's clearly not all those things.
Still would be a terrible promotion for Michigan to make. Way too risky. If he's capable of being a good HC, he should have to prove it at a lower level (like he should have done as an OC, but we stupidly didn't require that).
November 19th, 2020 at 10:29 PM ^
What has he done for anyone to think he'd be a better HC than coordinator? Seriously? What has he shown that he'd be a "Great delegator"?Or even be able to make the serious decisions a HC needs to make? NOTHING! Dude has been a bust of a hire so far. And anyone that thinks he's be a better HC than JH is batshit crazy.
November 20th, 2020 at 1:42 AM ^
Oh I certainly wouldn't bet on it. But we know he's not a good coordinator. We don't necessarily know he's not a good delegator and he was known as a good recruiter for PSU and Bama so he has a tiny chance of being a good HC. Miniscule. Not even close to high enough to promote him at Michigan but there's a non-zero chance.
November 20th, 2020 at 12:51 AM ^
Amen that P.J. Fleck is a good head coach and his players lay it on the line for him. He definitely could bring in and attract some quality talent that we sorely are missing.
November 19th, 2020 at 8:04 PM ^
Well Saban was quite irate he left, so there is that ...
November 19th, 2020 at 8:11 PM ^
I'm sure he was upset to see a good WR coach and probably good recruiter leave. But not enough to promote him to a position he knew he was unqualified for.
This applies to almost any profession. If you have a really amazing line cook, you can be upset if he leaves but that doesn't mean you think he's chef material. Very different skill sets.
November 19th, 2020 at 8:19 PM ^
Why can’t Michigan go out and get a badass D Coordinator and O Coordinator? I feel like we find ours at garage sales.
November 19th, 2020 at 8:27 PM ^
Name some. Not ones who currently get paid seven figures.
November 19th, 2020 at 8:29 PM ^
They did hire a badass D coordinator and he was amazing for a few years. The modern game probably caught up to him the past couple years but Don Brown was an absolute home run when he was hired and performed masterfully his first few years. I also think he deserves somewhat of a pass for this year. Best CB opts out, he's short a staff member, his all-american level DL are hurt, etc.
My guess as to why Harbaugh has failed repeatedly to hire a badass OC is that he can't evaluate them objectively like he did with Don Brown because he's an offensive guy with an opinion and a style of his own.
With Don Brown he literally just said, who's killing it as a DC, I want that guy. He did that because he was willing to completely delegate that side of the ball without much of an opinion about how the results were being achieved. But I don't think he's able to let go completely on offense and that means his prior relationships, prior philosophy, etc have ruined most of his OC searches.
It did appear that he tried to let go of that with the Gattis hire but he made a non-sensical hire of a guy with no experience. I think that's just a mistake he regrets. I suspect if he sticks around, he'll give it another shot and probably do better this time. Or maybe he's sabotaging the whole thing and didn't actually let go of his desire to keep his hands in things. Dunno.
November 19th, 2020 at 9:41 PM ^
He was not amazing at all and I mention this evening during "his heyday. His one trick pony is to keep blitzing and when we play teams which we have lesser talent then we hold them to 40 yd rushing and call him a GENIUS!
But any team that has equal or better talent they know how to pick it up and we get beat, look at our road record against any good team.
November 19th, 2020 at 9:53 PM ^
We struggle against everybody on the road. That was an issue before Brown got here. As great as everyone thinks the 2016 team was, the only game they won outside the state of Michigan was at Rutgers.
November 20th, 2020 at 1:54 AM ^
He was amazing and you're a victim to recency bias if you think otherwise.
That road record? It's the offenses fault, 100%.
Defense held Iowa to 12 points in 2016, but the offense gave up 2 themselves and still couldn't net 13 points. The defense held Beathard to 8 of 19 for 66 (!!!!!!!) yards for 3.5 ypa and still lost.
Defense held OSU to 10 (!!!) points in regulation in 2016, 7 of which came on a 13 yard drive after a Michigan INT (another 7 of their 17 regulation points came on a pick six). They held Barrett to 15-32 for 124 yards and an INT. No TDs. But Michigan's offense couldn't get out of its own way.
Defense held MSU to 14 points in 2017 and the offense couldn't get over that big hurdle.
I could go on and on. He was a defensive god until OSU 2018 (and really has only been bad in OSU 2018 and 2019).
If you think he wasn't masterful other than those two games, you might be in for a rude awakening when you see what comes after him.
November 20th, 2020 at 9:30 AM ^
Do you do anything other than bitch about everything?
November 19th, 2020 at 8:41 PM ^
Were you even watching that game?
Take a wild guess how many TEs were on the field for that 4th down play?
THREE!
Our worst position group on offense by far and 3 of them were on the field for the same play.
I dare you to find another modern offense that lines up with 3 TEs ever, let alone on 4th and 1.
November 19th, 2020 at 9:15 PM ^
For all of his strengths, picking OC's has not always been a bright spot for Saban.
November 20th, 2020 at 9:48 AM ^
"But I can't imagine if Harbaugh had taken over much of the playcalling that he would have called a 4th and inches play from the shotgun."
Considering that the Michigan offensive brain trust thought it made sense to hand the ball off to a TE in the Outback Bowl against South Carolina—before Josh Gattis was on the staff—it's easy to believe that Jim Harbaugh would call a shotgun formation on 4th and inches.
November 20th, 2020 at 11:42 AM ^
Thank you TB2003, this is exactly 100% my feelings as well. I thought something had been figured out by the end of last year, but by the end of the MSU game it was apparent Gattis was the issue.
This year we don't even have a vet O-line who we can lean on who could go back to running the Pepbaughfense (run side) to save us mid-year. This is what it's going to be this year is my guess.
Be glad it's only 8 games or less.
The good thing is, if Harbaugh could recognize his own failure in hiring Brown and Gattis and blew this all up, maybe we could have nice things again.
November 19th, 2020 at 8:27 PM ^
Mike Locksley is an 8-41 head coach whose team gave up slightly fewer points than Illinois did to Minnesota (and needed a missed PAT in OT from Minnesota's 8th-string kicker to win) and beat an 0-4 PSU. Save me this "he was the mastermind behind Alabama's offense". His skill appears to be having a Tagovailoa at QB.
November 19th, 2020 at 8:32 PM ^
Well it certainly wasn't Gattis like he claimed
November 19th, 2020 at 8:44 PM ^
Everyone wants the hot thing but are quick to throw it in the garbage when it doesn't work. As a fan base, we are willing to trash a good coach during a down year. A horrible down year sure, but it's not as if we are losing players next year to the nfl...
Take a chill pill and fucking relax.
November 19th, 2020 at 8:57 PM ^
We had 10 NFL players last year and only managed to go 9-4.
November 19th, 2020 at 9:30 PM ^
And they went 10-3 with only 3 draftees in 2018. Stuff happens?
November 19th, 2020 at 9:29 PM ^
You are certainly the apologist-in-chief of the board.
You'd have a very hard time convincing anyone that Harbaugh has been anything but a mediocre coach at UM.
You must be an OSU fan in sheep's clothing (or one of Harbaugh's kids?).
November 19th, 2020 at 9:20 PM ^
No, you claimed Gattis took credit for Locksley's accomplishments and I'm pointing out there doesn't appear to be much to take credit for. Anyway, be mad but save me the 20/20 hindsight.
November 19th, 2020 at 9:33 PM ^
It's not hindsight for some of us. There were more than a few posters who found it very troubling that he had twice been passed over for open OC roles on teams he was already on. There were more than a few of us that didn't think it was a great idea to hire an OC who had never in his career had playcalling responsibilities.
He may work out; heck, he may turn into an all-time great. But this hire was always much more of a crapshoot than a school like Michigan should feel they need to take.
November 19th, 2020 at 7:21 PM ^
Whether reasons exit or not, we stink like hot turds, we look like hot turds, and as the season gets longer and colder, we even steam like hot turds. Therefore, we ARE hot turds.
November 19th, 2020 at 7:26 PM ^
Is the white spec atop chicken shit still shit?
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November 19th, 2020 at 7:26 PM ^
Harbaugh is 100% responsible for this shitshow. But he has zero self awareness and wont quit. So enjoy trying to figure this out for years to come.
November 19th, 2020 at 7:27 PM ^
Maybe, but if Gattis thinks he can run an offense at a high profile school, and Harbaugh is making him look like a fool out there, then why stay?
November 19th, 2020 at 7:29 PM ^
I go back and forth on this. If Harbaugh is really calling the plays I don't think we see Joe Milton carry the ball out of the shotgun at the 1/2 yard line. That's Ben Mason territory.
November 19th, 2020 at 7:36 PM ^
If Harbaugh is so outdated, why would he call a Haskins wildcat pass?
Gattis is clueless.
November 19th, 2020 at 7:40 PM ^
Are you saying the "wildcat" isn't outdated and mostly figured out these days?
November 19th, 2020 at 7:42 PM ^
Harbaugh still thinks he has Jabril Peppers in the wildcat.
i think Harbaugh strongly suggest a formation or play type then Gattis just calls what meets the specifics of Harbaughs suggestion.
November 19th, 2020 at 10:29 PM ^
The "Pepcat" worked against Rutgers and Sparty for a few plays but was overall gimmicky and stupid.
November 19th, 2020 at 7:38 PM ^
Bingo. Most plays would be Ben Mason territory. Remember the boner he had for Houma?
November 19th, 2020 at 7:45 PM ^
If Harbaugh is so outdated, why would he call a Haskins wildcat pass?
Gattis is clueless.
November 19th, 2020 at 7:30 PM ^
Re-watch the Minnesota game, then re-watch the MSU game and tell me the same guy called both of those games without any outside interference
November 19th, 2020 at 7:34 PM ^
We are running the same plays we did that day.
None of it works because Minnesota was complete garbage.
November 19th, 2020 at 7:41 PM ^
You didn't read what I said. We exploited the outside edge against Minnesota big time. Against MSU, nearly all of our rushing attempts were between the tackles, even though the few times we did rush to the edge against MSU, we had major success. We continuously set downs on fire against MSU running betweent the tackles. That is Harbaugh offense. Against MSU, we constantly turned 2nd and 5 into 3rd and 9. I thought the play calling against Wisconsin was actually fine, we were just greatly over matched and couldn't do anything positive! The Indiana game was lost due to horrible defense. We played well enough offensively to win that game
November 19th, 2020 at 8:24 PM ^
I also don't recall a single swing pass to a RB or motioned-WR when we played MSU. We did that on multiple occasions against Minny. MSU was dialed-in to the inside running lanes and was shooting the gaps with LBs like crazy. With the speed advantage on the outside we have (Ronnie Bell, AJ Henning, Giles Jackson, Roman Wilson) I cannot fathom not running any of those plays that were successful the week prior.
November 19th, 2020 at 7:31 PM ^
If you have to ask this question then I think you already know what the answer is.
November 19th, 2020 at 9:48 PM ^
What are you talking about? I seriously had the same question. At the end of last year Brian and everyone was praising Gattis for his gameplans. Now everyone is saying Harbaugh needs to take his hands off the offense. Well did Harbaugh JUST start interfering again? Or was it part Harbaugh all along? No one on here is giving any specifics of why they think one way or another. And I assume you're trying to imply you think it is Harbaugh too. But based on what?
Just fire em all in my opinion. We suck under Harbaugh's watch in his sixth year is the important fact.
November 20th, 2020 at 1:12 AM ^
Take 3 deep breaths...
November 19th, 2020 at 7:33 PM ^
Gattis wanted Milton and cost us McCaffrey.
This is Gattis' fucking offense.
Harbaugh deserves a lot of blame, but stop pretending this shitshow isn't on Gattis.
Gattis was yelling at the receivers after that complete joke INT by Milton.
Harbaugh deserves blame for letting Gattis convince him Milton could actually play.
November 19th, 2020 at 7:39 PM ^
Gattis wanted Milton and cost us McCaffrey.
Source?