Hoops Snowflakes thread
How many times do we need to see this type of flailing by the basketball team at the end of games.
I watched this whole game, been watching since Campy Russell and CJ Cupek and I was screaming at the TV because of how they were coached and played from the end of the 1st OT till the end, truly pathetic.
December 19th, 2023 at 10:13 PM ^
I had no confidence that Michigan was going to win this game because this team just doesn't know how to execute down the stretch to close games out. But when you have a chance to win with 8.9 seconds left and you rush a 3-point shot instead of driving for the game winner, well, that's not bad coaching, it's just dumb basketball. Juwan doesn't coach that.
Michigan failed all night grabbing loose balls and repeatedly letting Florida get second and third shots when they had no serious outside game and could only score going to the basket. The way the game was called with every breath of contact called lent itself to yet another failed finish.
Michigan has lost most of its games this season not because of lack of effort, but poor execution and failure to value the ball. Blaming a coach just back from surgery for a loss in double OT and calling for his ouster is just ridiculous.
December 19th, 2023 at 10:20 PM ^
Juwan built this roster and he hired the assistants. Who the hell else should we blame?
December 19th, 2023 at 10:22 PM ^
You literally just listed attributes in a team that largely fall on a coaching staff to cultivate and instill but yet they don't deserve the blame? Sorry, that makes zero sense.
December 20th, 2023 at 6:20 AM ^
I’ll never understand how anyone can think that the players failing to execute is somehow a defense of the head coach.
December 20th, 2023 at 8:04 AM ^
Why do defenders continue to cite the surgery as an excuse, as if things suddenly went from good to bad after the surgery?
December 20th, 2023 at 10:04 AM ^
I couldn't disagree more. "when you have a chance to win with 8.9 seconds left and you rush a 3-point shot instead of driving for the game winner, well, that's not bad coaching,". Juwan not calling a timeout to dial up a play with 8.9 seconds left is egregious and unforgivable.
December 20th, 2023 at 4:21 PM ^
What you see a team do is what is coached to do, more times than not.
A wise coach once said, "What you see is what you coach" - Wise Coach
December 19th, 2023 at 10:14 PM ^
Holy cow this team is frustrating to watch. Anyone better than Florida and we’d have lost by 20 in regulation.
December 19th, 2023 at 10:14 PM ^
Juwan Howard’s first four plus seasons:
19-12(10-10
23-5(14-3)
19-15(11-9)
18-16(11-9)
6-6(0-1)
One Big Ten championship, an Elite Eight and Sweet Sixteen appearance, and four winning seasons. Is that a fireable resume? I don’t think so and I think Warde/Ono believe the same. Howard will return in ‘24 if he wants.
December 19th, 2023 at 10:20 PM ^
Do you really not see the trend of it devolving and going downhill just like Hoke's tenure?
December 19th, 2023 at 10:29 PM ^
Yes. Combined that with the other stuff the Howard era is going to end in ignominy. It’s just a matter of when. I just don’t think it will be this year.
Firing a guy who just had open heart surgery and who has never had a losing season up to this point isn’t something I see the administration doing.
December 19th, 2023 at 10:21 PM ^
This season isn’t over but the eyeball test this year and last year should tell ya things are not right, coaching is near awful!
December 19th, 2023 at 10:26 PM ^
Four winning seasons isn’t anything to write home about, especially when the trend line is downward.
The flip side to your narrative is that he’s gotten worse each season, save the year he had a team essentially with Beilien players and upperclassmen, he’s going to miss the tournament in two straight years, and it’s not like we’re playing a bunch of freshmen that we can say are building to something.
Does that mean he’s going to get fired? No, not necessarily. Does that mean he should? Yes, absolutely.
Im a big juwann fan and even I can see the writing on the wall.
December 19th, 2023 at 10:38 PM ^
It's actually 1-1 in the B1G this year - I get your point but you're forgetting that a decent chunk of those wins are "directional schools" or schools well outside the top 100 - the sad part is we have lost to a few of those schools and the reality is we should win at least 20 games every season. The best way to measure or take the temperature of the season is in conference play - we are 47-32 in his tenure with the majority of that plus coming from the C19 year - hardly anything special. I don't know about you but finishing around .500 four out of the five B1G seasons is, IMO, grounds for a change.
December 19th, 2023 at 10:18 PM ^
On the plus side because I just want to be positive: Dug is the kinda guy who could win NPOY as a senior. That award nowadays goes to a senior or upperclassman who is just a college dawg and not really a projected NBA star.
Love his grit, he still needs to tone it down at times but man he’s a dude.
My only snowflake is that at least the top 6/7 of this team is actually pretty good. Like Olivier, Burnett, Dug, and Reed are good players. Like, this is a better starting roster that can play cohesively than last two years. We just can’t get out of our own damn way.
December 19th, 2023 at 10:24 PM ^
What a roller coaster ride the Howard era has been. I've given him a massive benefit of the doubt, I believe the 2021 team was the best in program history. They have a real shot at a national title if Livers doesn't get hurt. That team was the most organized team I've ever seen, and their chemistry was amazing. While it had a lot of Beilein pieces (Livers, Brooks, Davis, Wagner-ish), Juwan filled in the holes of that team masterfully with transfers (Smith/Chaundee) and recruiting (Dickinson).
My rope's run out after the last two years. Honestly, my initial reaction to the Wisconsin incident was that he should be fired as I saw it as a Knight anomaly (a problem that doesn't seem to have improved all that much). Now, for basketball reasons as well, I think he should be left go.
Loved the idea of a Fab 5 member being the figurehead of the program, and I'll always appreciate his commitment to the school and his past contributions (as well as the good-looking class he has coming in), but the time has come IMO.
December 19th, 2023 at 10:25 PM ^
This just need to just part ways on Good terms. Would hate to see his fab 5 legacy end on a bad note. He’s just not the guy. He’s not a good coach.
December 19th, 2023 at 10:28 PM ^
What tells me more than just poor fundamentals, poor defense, poor decision making, poor execution, and poor coaching, that our Michigan basketball program is descending into oblivion, is that Brain and Seth hardly ever comment or react to it. Only Michigan football exists here. And who among us can blame them. This has become a poor product. You can tell it pains the two of them. I would submit however, that now more than ever, a critical and honest discussion about this program is needed. Just my two cents.
December 19th, 2023 at 10:28 PM ^
we basically fell apart after the refs stopped the game for almost 10 !!! minutes to look at a possible goaltending
December 19th, 2023 at 10:31 PM ^
I am not happy with where the program is at but I don’t ever think the answer is fire your coach unless the coach has had every opportunity to succeed and yet he still fails. Juwan has taken his team to a final 4 and I believe 3 sweet 16s. He has recruited relatively well. I would begin to implement with Juwan what they did with Harbaugh and reduce his salary but put incentives in for specific achievements. I think fan bases are always so quick to fire coaches and the next coach ends up being no better. Juwan Howard has always been praised as an up and comer coach and I don’t think that has just gone away. Force him to replace some of his coaching staff and see if things change.
December 19th, 2023 at 10:35 PM ^
He went to an elite eight and two sweet sixteens.
December 19th, 2023 at 10:44 PM ^
1 Elite Eight and 1 Sweet Sixteen to avoid any confusion defining the same season.
December 19th, 2023 at 11:44 PM ^
Thanks for clarifying my achievements of Juwan. I will still stick to my main point. Very rarely is the answer to fire a coach unless he continues to fail after to giving him every chance to succeed. If we would have taken this approach with Harbaugh, our football team would not be where they are today. Go ahead and give all the reasons why Harbaugh should have been given the benefit of the doubt as that is such an easy path to take now that you know how it has turned out. I am not advocating giving Juwan a lifetime contract but I don’t think he should be fired without putting some pressure on him with some incentives. Go Blue!
December 20th, 2023 at 7:52 AM ^
Thanks for clarifying my achievements of Juwan.
That feels sarcastic. You were wildly off, it needed clarification.
Go ahead and give all the reasons why Harbaugh should have been given the benefit of the doubt
First of all, my stance on Harbaugh in 2020 was the same as it is on Howard now (assuming we finish this season missing the tournament): I can live with him returning but I certainly won't be sad to part ways as amicably as possible.
Anyway, to answer your question, the reason to give Harbaugh in 2020 "the benefit of the doubt" is he had years and years of a successful track record. That's pretty much the big, main difference here. But on top of that, Harbaugh made tons of staff changes (something he was always has been willing to do) and also he took a massive, kind of humiliating, pay cut. I'm not saying Howard has to take a pay cut but he probably does have to make changes to his staff.
December 19th, 2023 at 11:03 PM ^
I think it’s appropriate to offer some caveats to the post season numbers. Fans care about the tournament. The proof is in the season that precedes it. He’s had one great season and been mediocre to below average in the other ones. I still hope he turns it around because I love Michigan.
December 19th, 2023 at 10:36 PM ^
I feel for Juwann because it seems the administration has done him no favors - You throw Caleb love Terrance Shannon and maybe even Hunter Dickinson on this team and you’re talking about a final four. But, they’re not here and you have to judge the product for what it is.
The trend is bad, and it’s getting worse. There’s no reinforcements coming, or young guys that we can truly be excited about. And to be honest, someone like dug has a better chance at transferring than he does at sticking around a .500 program.
I don’t know if the admin will do it - but unless the ship turns around, it’s time let juwann go at the end of the year
December 19th, 2023 at 10:48 PM ^
Not a final four team the way they are coached, or Hunter would have stuck around he could see the handwriting on the wall.
December 20th, 2023 at 8:00 AM ^
1) Admin has nothing to do with Hunter. In the NIL era, Hunter and Michigan just don't really fit. Not a knock on Hunter, this is his best chance at a payday. And no reason for Michigan to tailor its NIL policy just to cater to Hunter.
2) I get the frustration with the transfer thing. But we do get in some transfers, football gets in transfers, I get lost on how and why this happens. But regardless, yes, it would have been nice to have Shannon last year and Love this year. And yet...
Last year the team had Bufkin, Jett, and Hunter. That should be an auto-bid to the tournament, come on. It wasn't because Jett didn't play defense and wasn't asked to. And Hunter just went through the motions. I don't what happens with Shannon or Love getting thrown into this team. Nothing is suggesting that we know what to do with the parts we have.
December 19th, 2023 at 10:40 PM ^
This is the most frustrated I have been with the program since the final two years of Amaker. It just feels like we are running in place. I know that there is solid talent on this current roster, and that there is talent coming in next year. But can we honestly say that we have confidence they will be coached correctly and put in a position to succeed if the AD decides to run it back again next year? The 2021 team had 3 McDonald's AAs and only managed an 11 seed (the S16 run was fun, but that season was not). We had two lottery picks and the most coveted transfer in the history of the transfer portal era on our team last year and got blown out by a bad Rutgers team in the first round of the BTT to miss the tourney. This team has multiple pros on it and our defense has dropped 70 spots per Kenpom and it looks like our W/L record may be worse than last year or the year before it!
December 19th, 2023 at 10:44 PM ^
Multiple pro’s? Like who? I like the players but I don’t think any of them are future pros at this point. Which is fine btw, you can be a damn good college basketball team without pro’s.
December 19th, 2023 at 10:42 PM ^
I thought the team fought hard and once a game goes to double OT it’s a coin flip. I am very interested to see what this team can do in conference. I don't agree with those calling for Juwan to be fired. I think he loves Michigan and just like Harbaugh he will get it figured out. My personal opinion (that doesn’t mean anything) is to wait and see how this season plays out.
December 20th, 2023 at 6:35 AM ^
Brady Hoke also loved Michigan. Sometimes it becomes time to admit that something just isn’t working and move on.
December 19th, 2023 at 10:43 PM ^
It’s his first loss of the season.
December 19th, 2023 at 10:55 PM ^
Now I remember why I avoid snowflake threads. I understand the frustration, really, I do. However, some of you remind me of a typical Chicago Bears radio post-game caller-a classic miserable Monday morning quarterback. I think I read a similar thread…what was it, two days ago? Maybe it’s time to get a new hobby.
I know—I shouldn’t click on it if I don’t like it. I’ll try to remember next time. Sorry for interrupting—back to our regularly scheduled programming.
December 19th, 2023 at 11:01 PM ^
A couple things to go over. Does the team get better if Howard isn’t coaching them right now? I don’t know really know that answer. I think Phil is a better coach but the team wasn’t exactly playing great with him as the head coach. Second if Howard is fired who does Michigan hire? If I were the AD I’d make a strong move at Dutcher. Would he take the job? Just some thoughts.
December 19th, 2023 at 11:06 PM ^
Dusty May?
Shaka Smart?
December 19th, 2023 at 11:57 PM ^
It's a shit roster in general. Island of Misfit toys is Michigan basketball. Name me the first round NBA draft picks on this team. This NBA coach with all the swag (LEBRON's BFF) was supposed to be bringing 5* talent all over the place. That's what we were told. That's on the coach.
What coach can make magic from this crap. Its Jimmy and Joes especially in bball when 3 players can make or break your program. Our best players are transfers or 5'9 who can't defend any legitimate college point guard over 6'3.
Have you seen our amazing class coming in next year???? Oh wait.
December 20th, 2023 at 8:06 AM ^
This roster is not total shit. Yes, it's a bit of an Island of Misfit toys (I have called them spare parts) but beating a mediocre Florida team and beating Long Beach State at home...these should not be unattainable. This could have been a tournament team. That doesn't mean they make a run in March.
December 20th, 2023 at 3:29 PM ^
It is a pretty good class coming in next year. Anderson is way underrated and we have a guy who is ranked around 25th nationally. You have been against Howard ever since he was he was hired. I think an assistant or two might need to go but he has been hamstring by admissions or whoever when it comes to getting players. Shannon and Caleb Love and this team would look a whole lot better. Not saying Howard is doing his best as I think they need some kind of defensive coach like JB did to make this team better.
December 19th, 2023 at 11:05 PM ^
I love Juwan, always will, but it does feel like the program needs a fresh start.
Is it weird that I think if his sons had played better, we wouldn't be at this juncture?
December 19th, 2023 at 11:06 PM ^
This was a post on the Facebook fan page "Maize and Blue Sports Fans", which I think is the best Michigan fan group. This is a very fair post.
"Long post warning:
I am not the person who calls for a coaching change, but Howard is not producing. Reminds me of the Brian Ellerbe reign. Nice guy, but not getting it done.
For those people who go, "Everyone wanted Harbaugh gone, too". I LITERALLY created this page, because I thought that was nonsense. I (and a couple of others) was doing nothing but defending Harbaugh and was getting called "homer", because I predicted a one loss season in 2021 (yes, I have receipts. Lol).
The thing is.....it's an apples and tomatoes comparison. Harbaugh took over a program that was in shambles since the end of the Carr era. They were literally 5-7 before he took over. Harbaugh IMMEDIATELY turned around the program, and dumb people decided to move the goal post.....as if OSU hadn't built a two decade head start on roster development.
They focused on the half Covid season as "proof", but blatantly ignored the facts of that "season", because it went against their narrative. Michigan was literally the 2nd most inexperienced team - IN THE NATION- that season. Their best players literally opted out right before the season started. Covid protocols prevented proper (normal) practices, so they couldn't adequately "coach up" the inexperience. Teams with a lot of experience had an advantage (see Indiana, Northwestern, Iowa, Iowa State, etc....). On top of that.....several players went through the game weeks without practicing, because of Covid protocols. Michigan also had a Covid outbreak.
It was just bad all around, and not a fair measuring stick. When I pointed all that out.....I was said to be "giving excuses".
Well....I was right.
Now.....on the flip side.
Juwan Howard took over a team that was in the middle of it's most successful era since the Fab 5. LITERALLY played in TWO national championship games in the previous 6 seasons, before Howard took over. They won 30 games the year before Howard took over, which was the year after they won 33 games and played in the national championship game.....with SEVERAL players who were on the team when Howard took over.
Howard jumped in with an experienced team, and took advantage of the Covid season.....similar to the football season for Indiana.
He also had the NUMBER ONE recruiting class.
All seemed to be coming up roses.
The only problem was that success was reliant on the health of Isaiah Livers. With Livers.....they were fantastic. Without Livers.....not so much.
Since that season......Michigan has done nothing but regress back to pre Beilein levels.
Howard's best season was the Covid season.....which was 23 wins. His other seasons? 19 wins, 19 wins, 18 wins (last year), and they are 5-5 right now. The last time Michigan basketball had back to back sub 20 win seasons? In the 2002-2003 season, when Tommy Amaker was head coach.
Howard is literally working on 4 out of 5 seasons below 20 wins. 🤷♂️
I can't see any justified reason to keep him as head coach.....other than "nostalgia" from him being a beloved alum and Fab 5 member.
Watching this team the last few years has been hard to watch. That's 100% on coaching.
It just might be time to make a change.....and that's not some "knee jerk" reaction. This has been a several season evaluation."
December 19th, 2023 at 11:55 PM ^
The only problem was that success was reliant on the health of Isaiah Livers. With Livers.....they were fantastic. Without Livers.....not so much.
Livers was good, but Franz Wagner was the key to that team. With Livers out, we were one shot away from the Final Four. Had it been the reverse - Wagner out - I don't think we'd have come that close.
December 20th, 2023 at 6:57 AM ^
I want make sure I'm following this argument properly.
The original poster literally created the Facebook page because Michigan was literally the 2nd most inexperienced team in the nation due to players literally opting out before the season. In addition, the team had literally played in two national championship games recently, but now Howard is literally working on 4 out of 5 seasons below 20 wins.
I believe this to be a literaly succinct version of the original Facebook page, so I think I get it.
December 20th, 2023 at 9:25 AM ^
Don't know exactly what you're getting at here.
It seems his use of "literally" is 100% accurate, in this post.
The only misuse of the term "literally" was you trying to be funny with the part of why he made the page. That was clearly not why he made the page.
Seems you don't really understand the difference between "literally" and "figuratively", but think you want to be the the grammar police.
December 20th, 2023 at 3:11 PM ^
Yes, the usage appears accurate. It's just that varying adverbs occasionally (or using fewer) in such a long post makes it much more readable.
On the other hand, I'm an engineering and math major and I don't rite so gud, so what the hell do I know.
December 20th, 2023 at 7:52 AM ^
MIsuse of the word "literally" makes me figuratively insane.
December 20th, 2023 at 9:30 AM ^
"Figuratively" means that you figured out a creative way to describe something. "Literally" means you're telling something that really happened, as it really happened"
Every use of the word "literally" was used when it was describing something as it really happened, not as a creative way to describe something that happened.
So, it seems you're figuratively going insane for the wrong reasons. You figuratively need to get a life.
This poster is a friend of mine, so your incorrect criticism is vexing.
December 19th, 2023 at 11:09 PM ^
How many points did Michigan score in the last 5 minutes of the game???
seems to be a trend
December 19th, 2023 at 11:10 PM ^
They are poorly coached. The roster makeup has not been good. The defense is laughable. The offense is nonsensical in high-leverage possessions. The culture is non-existent. All of this points directly to the HC. It’s time.
December 19th, 2023 at 11:55 PM ^
Brian Ellerbe, Stapleton and Warde disagree. It's all going great.