I can think of a better place for a mod to move this.
Hoke and Harbaugh talk on ESPN Radio
I know a couple of folks here listen to Colin Cowherd, so I expected to see this as a thread. In his final 15 minutes, he discussed the tension between the 49ers and Jim Harbaugh, and how JH could choose to leave at the end of the season. That combined with a season similar to last years (which I don't think will happen....of course i didn't think last year would happen either) then Hoke could be replaced. I love Brady Hoke, as a person, a coach, and a representative of the school. I have met him, talked to him on the phone (yes I was giggling the entire time), and heard his recruiting pitch. I would settle for Lloyd Carr numbers for 15 years as long as he is at the helm. However...I think it is unanimous that Jim Harbaugh is an upgrade. Personally, I would have mixed emotions about him as a coach. It's hard for me to picture anyone else being a better guy for Michigan, than Brady Hoke.
edit: MOD please move to Board
It's too bad if Harbaugh's having issues with his job but we already have a coach.
you know, I've never understood this point of view in terms of sports. Take Josh Smith for the pistons. It seems unanimous that he should be replaced with somebody better, so why can't this be the same with coaches? I understand that college and pro sports are different, but it's not like we're talking about the student athletes, were talking about an employee.
The nature of college football is such that coaching transistions are generally costly and take time to reach their potential. We're dealing with a double dose of whiplash right now. It's not something to jump into lightly just because some hot new name is available.
More importantly, I do *not* think Harbaugh would be an upgrade, nor do I think Hoke needs replacing. He's building something special here, I just hope Michigan fans don't Michigan fan their way into a coaching change before it has a chance to come to fruition. Jumping after a guy like Harbaugh would be exhibit 1A of this. You're entitled to your own opinion, obviously..
I was really disappointed that Harbaugh did not take the job after Rich Rod. However, I would rather have Brady Hoke as the coach going forward. Give me the guy who sees this as his "Dream Job". I would prefer that over the guy who settles for the job after chasing his "Dream Job" somewhere else.
But the train has sailed. We waited at the station for him and he never showed up. Never look back.
Are you sure that the train has sailed? Yes, I'm pretty sure Rick was standing there on the train, watching Paris recede into the distance, his beloved Ilsa somewhere, nowhere... as the train puffed up its sails into the French wind and, uh, tracked a course southward to Nice and the Med.
I laughed out loud at this one. Good catch.
Don't be a dick. Make like a tree and get outta here.
At least I think that's what he was trying to do.
Yep. I know I'll get negged by a few for saying this too, but I'd rather have the Mad Hatter than Harbaugh simply because we wants it more. Harbaugh's heart just isn't in it. You could visibly see the disappointment in MH's face when talking about how the last coach hunt happened. You just know he wants it.
I don't concern myself in the politics of what happened while he was an assistant. I've heard five different credible stories from five different credible people. That said, I couldn't be more hopeful of success for Brady Hoke. Damn, it's so easy to love that guy.
...was Gerry Faust's dream job.
I'm not comparing Hoke to Faust, but a lot of JAGs, and high performeres, have dream jobs in which they don't excel.
Jim Harbaugh is an NFL guy and seemingly couldn't get to the NFL fast enough. I can't forsee him going down to coach in college, anywhere.
I think many coaches who start in college take a "nice place to visit but I would not want to live there" approach to the NFL after seeing what it is about. Harbaugh came out of the gate hot in the pros but he did so with a team that was ready compete personel wise almost immediately. It also helped that Kaepernick was this badass Joe Montana-Michael Vick hybrid that Harbaugh got almost for free his first three years in the league. I don't expect it to be all that easy from here on out. I actually think Harbaugh would have taken the Michigan job if there was sufficient talent in reserve. He may be more likely to think about it now.
He coached a team in the Super Bowl.
Somehow, I think that Jimbo wouldn't like transitioning to Saturdays in exotic places like West Lafayette, East Lansing or Tuscaloosa. Unless he completely shits the bed in the NFL.
think he harbors a secret desire to be a Saban-like figure in Ann Arbor. Harbaugh comes to Michigan and we sell-out the spring game. I don't think the ship has completely sailed on that.
JH and the misses seem to like the west coast. I suppose if he gets fired/quits he'll be looking for the Raider/Charger/LA team.
I'm in the shoulda took the job last time camp, I'd want his brother over him down the road if it comes to that.
Exactly. With the Super Bowl gleam and intense genius label still strong, he'll find another NFL HC job in Cali. The only way he goes back to college (see Pete Carroll) is if he hangs a 2-14 season on his record.
The time for him to take a job in AA was right before or during his Stanford job.
3 points here:
1. I am guessing that Harbaugh didn't want to have an idiot like DB for a boss.
2. When Michigan is THE surprise team of the year, there won't be any more talk about Brady Hoke's "hot seat."
3. For those of you who want to replace Brady Hoke, the candidate pool will not be very impresslive as long as DB is at the helm. If Hoke were to be let go, DB would be seen as a petulant corporate hatchet man who fires people just before they get to see their vision for the team come to fruition, which is pretty much what he was seen as during the last search.
It's no accident that the candidate pool was so pathetic last time. Les Miles was never a serious candidate, nor was Jim Harbaugh. Both listened to what DB had to say and decided they would be better off elsewhere. These are two loyal Bo guys we are talking about here, and even they didn't want to take a chance and work for DB.
Brady Hoke is a high-quality human being and a very good coach who is working at his "dream job." DB is lucky to have hired him. If DB ever stopped meddling with the X's and O's, Michigan could become a perennial powerhouse again under Hoke.
Far be it from me to define a "real Michigan fan," but if I were to do so, I would say it is someone who supports the head coach for as long as he is with the program and believes that anything that is mathematically possible is attainable. Those who are already looking for his replacement are assuming that the team will fail this year.
I am not ready to make that assumption.
Not a DB hater, but I like the sentiment about Hoke. He seems to be a great human being - to his players, the fans, the community, etc. He has assembled a very good team - all of whom seem to be very loyal to him. He and his team have recruited top tier atheletes at an astounding rate. We have every reason to get behind him.
Am not trying to put down Hoke here but there is no evidence that he has built a "really good team" at this point. That is overselling at this stage.
I like some of the points you make but you're seriously confused or misled about the Miles situation. Les Miles DID interview for the job and would have taken it acccording to himself. There is even video of him discussing the process. DB just chose Hoke (glad he did). Furthermore, there is wide spread speculation that his time as an assistant under Meoller was the main reason. Something happened there that has a million different versions.
Most people don't like it because, unfortunately, it makes Les Miles look like good guy.
I wouldn't settle for Lloyd Carr numbers unless it is late 90s Lloyd carr or 2006. As for BH, I think he'll get it done.
Lloyd did less with more. He is also a great man but a source of some frustration. He had a shit pot of talent. He gave us a National Championship and will always be a hero for that. Michigan should be on a scale of what Alabama has done recently with our resources and tradition. In think Brady will get us there. The next two years are big.
Is that something you seriously want? Have we really lowered the bar that far?
"Lloyd Carr numbers" (from Wikipedia):
- 122-40 overall (13 seasons)
- 1 national title
- 5 Big Ten titles
- 19-8 vs. top 10 teams
- 6-7 vs. OSU
- 10-3 vs. MSU
- 5-4 vs. ND
I'm fine with that bar, especially when you throw in that he ran a clean program and was a classy, great spokesman for the university.
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Hard to respond when you don't even say which word you're talking about.
Don't get me wrong, LC did a great job at the helm, but having a losing record against OSU in any capacity should not set the bar. Just my opinion, I have nothing against your opinion.
Oh give me a break. Lloyd Carr coached against two incredible HCs at OSU, one of OSU's bet periods in their history, and nearly went .500 against them. Pretty close to what Bo did against Woody.
I just have slightly higher expectations than you. No big deal. And with our resources, tradition, etc my expectations aren't unrealistic. After all, we traditionally beat OSU more than they beat us. Why can't I expect that going forward? I understand that the dynamics of college football have changed and perhaps there are some competitive advantages driven my shaddy acts in which we refuse to partake. Regardless, my high level of expectation remains unchanged.
but Carr started off 5-1 vs OSU, producing some of Michigan's most exciting victories in the rivalry:
- '95 Biakabutuka game. OSU was undefeated and #2 in the nation
- '96 OSU was undefeated and #2 in the nation
- '97 OSU was 10-1 and #4 in the nation; UM to Rose Bowl for a shot at a national title
- '99 Brady-to-Walker for the win with 5 min left
Yes, Tressel owned him and that was frustrating. But Carr owned Cooper, and if you think that isn't saying a lot then I would assume you are too young to remember what those OSU teams were like. I don't know that any other coach in the B10 had a winning record vs Cooper, though I seriously doubt it.
If Carr had won one more of those OSU games (so that his record was 7-6), would you feel entirely differently about him?
I think highly of what LC did here, so having a winning record against OSU would entirely change my view of LC.
Probably our most proud accomplishment as a program is that we can claim to be the winningest college football program. We also like to tout our winning record against OSU. Maintaining these accomplishments requires a strict committment to winning, especially against our main rivals.
Something to think about: depending on how this year plays out, we are at risk of losing the title of "winningest big ten team" to OSU.
You don't think he would negitive recruit the shit out of Urbz if he took the job? Dude negged UM and waited till Bo died to do it.
I'm not saying its a bad thing but I like how Hoke/Lloyd does/did it. Jim IMHO would be slinging arrows at everyone.
Tressel guaranteed victory against Michigan his rookie year. Ohio came to Michigan with a very lame 6-4 team and we were loaded. We called the most sterile game and got buried in the 1st half. Lloyd opened it up in the 2nd and we looked like the best team in the country.... Too litlle to late. Tressel was a hero and would have been a 7-5 goat. He recruiting class jumped from out of the top twenty to #5 or better and he gained the edge.
Hmmm, my recollection of that game is that Navarre was awful in the first half, committing something like four turnovers, and then was pulled only to have Jermaine Gonzales take his eyes off the shotgun snap for a safety. Ohio capitalized on the short fields to go up 23-0. Navarre and the rest of the team played much better in the second half but we just had dug too deep a hole. I don't think playcalling had much to do with it. If anything we maybe should have been more conservative and not put the game on Navarre's shoukders.
Well, except for when he stoned that ABC putz with the "why would you ask such a stupid question" response. That said, I hate the halftime quick question crap and wish it had never started. I think it's pretty funny what Lloyd said, but I can understand how it could be a PR nightmare for some of the UM brass.
and I also remember that immediately after the game he gave an interview to the same reporter and comported himself politely and with class, probably about the closest he would have gotten to an actual apology. It was one bad moment, certainly not something to judge his career by
That was one of my proudest moments as a Michigan fan. Those interviews are absurd.
Honestly, I can't think of a better, more appropriate representative of UM. Carr was smart, classy, and cantankerous, but he was cantankerous when others weren't being smart and classy. Damn straight that's Michigan.
He certainly was a great man and great representative of everything Michigan.
He really was at his best in the biggest games.
Also, 9-2 vs Penn State.
So if I'm understanding this correctly a know-nothing jerk-off talking head from ESPN with 15 minutes to kill before the end of his showl decided to troll Michigan fans for the umpteenth time with a topic that was tired and worn out in 2007 and you felt you just HAD to post it?
I actually thought this thread would be about Hoke and Harbaugh talking, maybe even to each other, on the radio. Nope, just a bit of HC speculation game.
Exactly what I thought. Misleading title for a tired topic.
Let's just not do this, mmmmk?
So much so, in fact, that it wasn't until I read your post that I realized it wasn't.
In fairness to myself, I just skimmed the op when I saw where he was taking the topic and thought I just missed the link.
It would have been a pretty cool radio conversation to hear.
That's what I thought, too. Imagine my disappointment
I would also wait until after this year to say that Harbaugh is an upgrade. You can't evaluate a coach after 3 years. Remember when MSU fans said that Beilein couldn't/never made it to the final four. For all we know, Hoke could turn into our Beilein. It doesn't seem like many people like JH wherever he goes.
Beilein is our Beilein.
If the 49ers don't win a Super Bowl this year, Harbaugh's probably going to end up splitting from the team because there are major contract differences there (he wants a lot more money).
it seems very unlikely that he'd want to go back to college and be Jim's little brother, as it were. I wouldn't be surprised to see Dallas throw a whole bunch of money at him to bring him there. I genuinely don't think that any college team is going to be able to provide him with the kind of environment he wants (specifically, one where he can make a run at winning a Super Bowl).
His coaches have to have strings for him to pull and I doubt Jim will let him call plays and pick all the players. Stephen Jones had to stop his dad from drafting Johnny Football this year.
That would be a titanic clash of egos. (or is it egoes?)
I'm sorry, but you'd be okay with consistent 7-5 to 9-3 seasons? You'd be okay with losing to OSU every year? Because I sure as hell wouldn't be. If you're okay with those kinds of seasons, then that paints a good picture of how far Michigan football has fallen.
Look, I get you. Hoke really is a great guy and a fine representative of our university. But his job is to come in and win football games, namely beat our rivals and win conference championships. He hasn't shown an ability to do either of those things, and if he can't, he should be replaced. I want him to be the guy. I really do. But I refuse to settle for mediocre 8-4 seasons as being sufficient for a place like Michigan.
Can we stop with the "picture of how far Michigan football has fallen" hyperbole? It's so tedious.
Averaged over 9 wins per season. He finished outside the top 20 in the final polls exactly once in his career, which happened to be in the only season he didn't win at least 8 games (the injury plagued 2005 season). He won 9 or more games 10 times in 13 seasons.
Lloyd was a very, very good coach.
Just dont watch Michigan if it kills you that much. But when they start winning don't come back!
Hoke's job is to the the head coach of the University of Michigan football team. Winning games is certainly part of his job description, but it is not his sole responsibility. This is not the NFL.
out of a peanut butter sandwich."
Cowherd haters hate! He is the speculation king and the king of speculative ideas that can never be proven.
I'd still take Jimbo if he wanted to come back to AA and not think twice. With that said though it isn't going to happen and for right now at least it's up to Hoke to shut this talk down by doing something he hasn't done in his head coaching career and that is consistent winning.
I know the program is going through a rough patch, but I really feel that the talent level is finally where it needs to be in Ann Arbor. The roster is more complete now than any time in Hoke's tenure. He made a mistake in hiring Borges but he saw that when he realized what the offense looked like after Denard. Call me over-optimistic but I believe in Brady Hoke.
I think it's interesting that this topic keeps coming up. I'm not sure why anyone thinks Harbaugh would ever land back here. I think he would see this as a step down after coaching in the NFL - just seems like that kind of guy. He bad-mouthed us infamously with the "steering athletes to the easier classes" thing. And he seems like a mercurial head case. Since Bo died, it's been a roller coaster, and I think people around here have little patience for drama. I'm shocked by little; Harbaugh coming back would completely shock me.
So you would extend his contract regardless of his performance? He does not deserve a contract extension at this point.
must hate watching Michigan football man!
Harbaugh is a whole different level of coach. Ridiculous, nearly immediate success at every level. No blemishes besides being an asshole, which, as long as he's not ruining kids' lives like Saban does on an annual basis, who cares? I think it is possible that Hoke can be a great coach here. But proven success trumps hopeful potential. Hoke can talk about expectations at Michigan and fluff our junk all he wants, but there is no doubt in my mind that JH would fulfill those expectations and then some, without sacrificing ANYTHING from a tradition perspective. The guy played for Bo. Isn't that what every older fan wants? The guy plays smash mouth football. Isn't that what everyone (besides Brian) wants? The guy wins. Isn't that what everyone wants? Come on, folks. Don't act like we value friendliness over winning when half the fanbase wanted Carr gone by the time he retired (like morons). I do really like Hoke and recognize his recruiting success but does anybody doubt JH could replicate that success if not eclipse it? And haven't we already seen JH succeed on the field with middling recruits anyways?
I'm a firm believer that the truly elite coaches are not perfect. There aren't many elite coaches, and if we can get one whose imperfection is being too blunt, we would be stupid (but loyal!) to pass it up.
Harbaugh will be the coach of Michigan next year but only because we are about to go 15-0 in 2014; therefore, Brady Hoke will be headed to the NFL........... and yes, Urban Meyer from 2012 was my source.
This is huge news. That there are still people who listen to Colin Cowherd and take what he says seriously.
I laughed and laughed at the comment posted about not being able to judge a coaches performance after only 3 seasons...
Our previous coach was a tire fire after 3 seasons and our ass was on probation, those kind of cases it's pretty clear something needs to change. That situation is not remotely close to our current one.
Why is it funny? Beilein and Dantonio were different coaches in their first three years then their next 4 years. It's not like Hoke has had a full cupboard just like Beilein and Dantonio didn't have a full cupboard and didn't have full results.
The only way this would happen is if Hoke shits the bed in 2014 AND 2015 (I can't see David Brandon not giving him at least five years) and Jim Harbaugh wins the Super Bowl this year (preferably in a rematch against his brother). Hoke would be out and Harbaugh would have achieved the one goal that kept him tied to the 49ers despite their increasingly toxic relationship, opening the door for Harbaugh to return to his alma mater.
Having said that, it's not gonna happen. That ship has sailed.
Yeah, I think there is a subset of people who would love to see Harbaugh at UM, but I'm not one of them. The guy is kind of a jerk, and not the type of jerk who apparently is still tolerable because he wins. He's better in the pros, and considering the number of veiled shots he's made at UM I don't think it would be a good match.
Harbaugh probably was never a serious candidate last time. Hoke is not getting fired this year or next, unless he goes all RR and wins 3. Harbaugh will never be the coach at Michigan as long as Brandon is around and honestly, probably never will regardless. As Harbaugh himself or maybe it was Les who said it, Michigan is in good hands with Brady Hoke.
from the start of the season and you want to bring this up?? Just. Soo. No.
It isn't that I dislike Harbaugh exactly. But knowing what I know now about both Hoke and Harbaugh, I would choose Hoke 10 times out of 10. Hoke's character, his concern for his players, his goals as a coach, make him the perfect coach as far as I'm concerned. There may be a few better coaches out there in terms of X's and O's. But I don't care. Hoke is here for the long haul. He has surrounded himself with a great staff. He knows the game well enough to coach aggressively.
Here's where I believe Hoke strongly trumps Harbaugh, and where Hoke is better suited to the college game than Harbaugh. I strongly believe Hoke will do much better than Harbaugh with stellar recruiting. Look on the front page: Iman Marshall wants to take an official to Michigan. Our biggest problem in recruiting this year is that we won't have enough room for all the 4 & 5 star players who want to commit here! Maybe in the NFL, it is only about winning, but not in college. I actually believe that over time, Hoke's methodology is going to work to perfection.
My son will never play Div. 1 football. But from his time in football over the last 5 years, I have seen good coaches and bad. I would much, much rather my son play for Hoke than for Meyer, or Saban, or Brian Kelly, or Harbaugh.
He's a good recruiter, but he's not outstanding. He's been outrecruited by OSU every single year. He routinely has the third or fourth best class in the Big Ten. He's gotten some good players (Peppers is probably going to be an all-time great), but let's not kid ourselves here, he's not a better recruiter than Kelly or Urban. He's had two good classes and in both years OSU did better.
Thanks to Hoke's recruiting, Michigan's roster now has depth and talent at literally every position. That wasn't the case when he took over. A few years ago, if a player wasn't performing, we'd look at the roster and usually see nothing but walk-ons and freshmen backing him up. Now we have veterans and 4+ star recruits everywhere--so if somebody isn't performing, everyone looks at the position coach.
Meyer may be pulling in higher-rated classes on Rivals, but he also came in to a much better situation. Hoke started in a hole but has closed the talent gap significantly and in a very short period of time.
Now let's see if he can coach them up
But realize that the teams you mentioned have pretty much dominated college football the last few years. I also didn't say he's a bad recruiter. He's basically driving a Ferrari and hitting the gas on straightaways. Recruiting is the thing he's best at, but it's also fairly clear that he's not the best recruiter in the Midwest.
Go back and look and see how many guys have left the program each year. the had two (no I'm not looking it up) in the last two cycles and they were 3/4 stars.
Ah, Colin Cowherd, who loves win at all cost coaches despite their moral questionability. He claims Ohio is still a 10 win team which isn't impossible but claims Michigan is "done." I think it's amazing how analysts look at the previous year in their predictions even though many of the teams have high turnover. Let's just say I won't be surprised to see Ohio take a step back offensively and State take a step back defensively. If Michigan can become great defensively and the offense progresses over the year it could be a special season.
Harbaugh could choose to leave his position at the end of the season...he could choose to leave his position today.
That really has nothing to do with coaching Michigan football.
I've dug Jimmy since watching him play when I was a kid. But I think it's pretty clear that if he wanted to return to Ann Arbor...he could have.
He chose not to.
So let's get back to Team 135.
John Harbaugh is more likely to coach at Michigan some day.
a bit surprised at all the Hoke love. If he does well, great, we're all set. But if the team hits 7-5 this year, the writing is on the wall, and I (for one) would welcome Jimmy home.
Ideally, Hoke will stay our coach until he decides to retire. If he is fired at some point though, getting Harbaugh would be a nice replacement IF he truly wants to come here and stay here for awhile.
This is coming from a Harbaugh fan... I think we need to support Hoke this year but it would be foolish to close the door on Jim if he was available and we had a crappy year and needed to find a replacement. We don't know what happened in the talks between DB and JH and to assume DB's summary of the events is valid would be equally as foolish.
He certainly has had more success, but would he stick with Michigan for the long run? I don't think so. Hoke will, and if he has the right coordinators, he will succeed.
I bet Harbaugh wouldn't have let team chemistry come a part during the course of the year.
It JH leaves the NFL for UM, he would prob stay long term. Not that it would happen, but it was always said he was an NFL guy, so I think if he leaves there, he would probably not go back.
Am I the only one who read this thread title and expected to read about Hoke and Harbaugh talking to each other on the radio?
That was my first reaction as well.
that most Michigan coaches (since I've followed the Wolverines) didn't try to be the story. Harbaugh is the opposite of that. I don't want a situation where he comes in to save the program. I'd prefer Hoke, like Beilein, has quietly been building a program that will explode. And like Beilein, he won't spit at his critics/doubters like I am sure Harbaugh would.
He would simply make people believers by crushing our enemies, to see them driven before us, and to hear the lamentations of their fans.
Room 110 to be exact, a few years before 110 Rumsey was my home away from home.
He is crazy. But dammit, he sounds like Bo!
Still rather have this staff though. This D will be a filthy. And a filthy D can inspire an O.
Urban Meyer may have tad better classes but besides that BH is #2 recruiting in the midwest. Michigan had better recruiting classes than ND in 2012 and 2013 and would have a better class this year with a full class. PSU has only had one good year under Franklin. We'll see if that is sustained. In fact, Michigan recruiting class looks better than Urban's right now per capita which is remarkable considering the 7-6 season last year.
In fact, PSU has had no years under franklin.
I guess maybe that is the point of the thread. Hoke has done a great job recruiting, at least according to the sites, but it is time to see results. No more excuses, just wins.
Bad title, silly topic, inane discussion.