Do you want JH to get a lower salary next contract?
I understand the reasoning behind those who want to keep JH and they have very good points. My question to them is:
Should he be offered a salary closer to his actual performance next round of talks?
Also, what do you think will actually happen? If things keep going like this, the next contract could be a very difficult process.
October 13th, 2019 at 12:01 PM ^
LOL....yeah, just like professional athletes, right? Will Cabrara be playing for the MLB League minimum next year?
October 13th, 2019 at 12:02 PM ^
Not really, I gotta be honest I don’t really care about his salary. Athletics (and I’m not just talking NCAA football) is so full of silly money that it really doesn’t matter, at least, to me personally. If it makes others on this board feel empowered, then sure, cut his salary and see who replaces him after he goes to the NFL. Maybe Lincoln Riley can be had for cheap. /s
October 13th, 2019 at 12:33 PM ^
Good points here. I do agree that the actual dollar amount shouldn't be THAT big of a deal however it is painful to think that he's the 3rd highest coach in the game and I think we're a top 20 program right now, at BEST. So, do I think we're getting our money's worth? Hell no! But do I care about the actual money itself? Not really.
October 13th, 2019 at 12:53 PM ^
I think we're a top 20 program right now, at BEST
We've had three 10-win seasons in the last four while competing in the Big Ten East. Are there really 19 Power 5 schools that have done better?
October 13th, 2019 at 1:00 PM ^
Without doing a ton of research, over the last 5 years, I'd say: Oklahoma, Clemson, Georgia, Ohio State, Alabama, Auburn, LSU, Notre Dame, Texas, Wisconsin, and Washington have been/are in a better place than us. That's 11 right there and again without even thinking much about it. But heck, even if we're potentially a top 11-12 team, again, having the 3rd highest-paid coach. That just seems off to me. If others are satisfied with that and don't care about the money, that's fine I suppose.
October 13th, 2019 at 1:12 PM ^
Teams like Clemson, Oklahoma and Notre Dame benefit greatly from playing in easy conferences. It's a lot easier to prepare for 1-2 tough games every year than 5. And success snowballs in terms of better recruits.
This is why our fanbase being such curmudgeons is directly harming the success of our team. No 5* recruit wants to walk unto a situation that is constantly unstable and fans are calling for the coach to be fired after a 17 point victory on the road where the game was never really in doubt. I promise you, this fanbase being so entitled and easily manipulated is the only reason we are not a better team than we should be.
October 13th, 2019 at 1:14 PM ^
A major reason? I'll absolutely give you that and agree with you. The ONLY reason? I'm calling bullshit there. Harbaugh, the Athletic Department, the others, etc. also hold some of the blame but again, agreed, the fans (and the media I might add) are to blame from where the program is as well.
October 13th, 2019 at 6:21 PM ^
One of the things that frustrates and saddens me is that we have had people *convinced* that we underplay our talent now for the 27 years that I’ve been watching UM football closely. We have been a very good program. Especially when you consider we are in a relatively talent poor state.
We often have a lot of talent. We don’t often have a crap ton of depth of talent compared to the Uber programs. For us to win big like them takes a lot more luck.
If a new kid at Bama beats out a starter both are probably five stars.
Here we’ve had walk ons get starting spots (deservedly so) but if our 4* recruit is out worked by our 3* or 2* walk on it just shows we don’t have the embarrassment of riches a school like Bama or Clemson has. But that can have costs. Glasgow may have legitimately won the spot with hard work. But it doesn’t mean his 40 got any faster when we face OSU.
I have read back in the day when we did stand among the Uber programs that we could recruit enough kids to keep kids *off* other teams. It’s not like that anymore. Our margin of error is much thinner.
it just feels like our fan base is out of touch with reality. And if you transported this fan base to a bo year where we went 9-3 they’d lose their crap again. “Unacceptable! Bo is paid too much!! Arrgghhh!”
October 13th, 2019 at 1:16 PM ^
I don’t think the fanbase is fumbling the ball or not throwing more to our wide recievers.
October 13th, 2019 at 1:18 PM ^
Also Wisconsin. If we were to swap places with them, we'd probably have a bunch of West division titles.
October 13th, 2019 at 1:20 PM ^
The big ten isn’t as tough as you’re making it out to be. It’s not the SEC west by any stretch
October 13th, 2019 at 1:26 PM ^
I agree, the B10 East is much tougher than the SEC West this season.
October 13th, 2019 at 5:44 PM ^
Nah I'd take Bama/LSU/Auburn/A&M over OSU/Penn State/Michigan/MSU. I think the SEC takes games 2-4, and the OSU vs Bama/LSU game seems like a coin flip.
Keep going down the rest of the division and we've got Ole Miss vs Indiana. I'd lean Ole Miss.
Miss St vs Maryland? Hard to call, honestly.
And I'd imagine that even Arkansas could beat Rutgers right now.
Seems like the SEC West is definitely the stronger division.
October 13th, 2019 at 1:26 PM ^
The conference as a whole, maybe not, but the East division is legit.
October 13th, 2019 at 1:25 PM ^
1-11 vs top 10 teams. 2-7 vs rivals. 1-3 bowl games.
October 13th, 2019 at 1:26 PM ^
Auburn's last 5 years: 8-5, 7-6, 8-5, 10-4, 8-5
Texas: 6-7, 6-7, 5-7, 7-6, 10-4
LSU: 8-5, 9-3, 8-4, 9-4, 10-3
even Washington: 8-6, 7-6, 12-2, 10-3, 10-4,
and Notre Dame: 8-5, 10-3, 4-8, 10-3, 12-1, are pretty comparable.
I understand that we're all unhappy with the offense and the (one!) loss to Wisconsin, but inflating other teams to generate more self-pity is helping no one.
October 13th, 2019 at 1:30 PM ^
Good research here, thanks for that (not being sarcastic). I appreciate that people are clearly disagreeing with me on where the program ranks right now. I'll shut up now :)
October 13th, 2019 at 2:45 PM ^
Harbaugh is 9th among Power Five schools in winning percentage over his Michigan tenure.
https://www.teamrankings.com/ncf/trends/win_trends/?range=yearly_since_2015
It might not seem like it, because he's not finished #9 in the polls over that period, but not all the same teams finish in the top 9 every year. For example, he's ahead of Notre Dame by not having a 4-8 record on the books.
And it's true that he is the #3 paid coach. (However, I highly doubt any savings on coaching salaries will be passed along to ticket holders; the AD is going to charge as much as it thinks the market will bear.)
I also think forward projections/momentum are lower mid-season than they were pre-season.
Rather than being so precise, I think of Michigan as in a group of 10 or so that trail Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State, Oklahoma, and the Kirby Smart Georgia.
A coaching change is a risky maneuver that is in no way guaranteed to move Michigan into the elite group. (A whiff could also lead to Warde getting fired.)
Depending on your risk tolerance, it's also not an unreasonable move when you are paying #3 dollars.
Despite the melancholy outlook at present, this season hasn't yet written itself, so I'm inclined to hold off for now.
October 13th, 2019 at 7:27 PM ^
If we underpaid him and he left, good luck getting a new coach with credibility.
and if we fire him or he leaves, I have to imagine the transfer portal will start to look like 696 during rush hour.
October 13th, 2019 at 3:14 PM ^
Thank you for this response, but please don't shut up! Keep contributing and making the board more civil with posts like this.
October 13th, 2019 at 1:33 PM ^
Onas thanks for actually posting those teams results. Uofm is clearly a top 10 team ain’t Harbaugh arrived. If Uofm had just one 4-8 season like NOtre dame many people would demand the head coach’s fired.
Auburn hasn’t been close, idk where that one came from.
Texas hasn’t been close with in field results, saying they are better isn’t purely speculative.
Uofm is a top 10 program, that’s very far away from top 4. And that’s a problem for many, including myself.
October 13th, 2019 at 7:33 PM ^
I’d love them to be a top four, but I wonder at our ability to do it and stay who we are.
if we stay the course I think we can be a very good team and get better, maybe even good enough to regularly contest OSU for the B1G title.
if we change courses, unless we get amazingly lucky, I see more years of doom and confusion as we deal with am emptying locker room and a new coach of ? Quality. Gattis, RR, and Hoke have me nervous on that score. And if we get a guy who goes 5-9 win seasons in 3 years we’ll be back to ground zero again.
To regularly compete with the top four? Bagmen and questionable academics time. Do we want that? I don’t.
October 13th, 2019 at 3:40 PM ^
Onas, thank you so much for posting this!! It should actually be a perspective post to maybe let some of the delusional know where this team actually stands in relation to some of the other “powers” in the NCAA.
October 13th, 2019 at 2:27 PM ^
Clemson, Alabama and Ohio State, correct.
Notre Dame, Auburn, and LSU have been/are relevant occasionally.
Georgia and Oklahoma in their current forms are currently flashes in the pan. Let's see if they can sustain it. Georgia just lost to a bad SC team at home.
October 14th, 2019 at 1:22 AM ^
Totally agree. Remember a 10 win season still means a 3 loss team. Which means final ranks around 10-15 and third in the big ten east except last year. Then add an unranked 8-5 season. No Ohio state wins. No bowl wins in 3 years. Public Humiliation against every top ten team we play. I don’t understand how we can be satisfied by this. We can do better and we should demand better. This isn’t fun anymore.
All the Harbaugh apologists you are telling me this is fun going into Penn State with computers predicting we have a 21% chance of not being humiliated publicly again...
October 13th, 2019 at 1:11 PM ^
We are definitely a top 20 program, zero doubt about that. Of course many people think that's underachieving. I understand that, and emotionally would love it if we were consistently top ten. That's actually where I'd be personally be completely content with the state of the program--consistent top ten finishes.
But I'm getting resigned to top 11-25 instead. I think when you look at recruiting lately, in addition to on field results, that seems to be where we project.
October 13th, 2019 at 1:16 PM ^
Yea, that's fair. I'd say we're probably somewhere in that same range as well. I was being a touch dramatic in the comments above but you're right, that range seems about where we are. I think it's that resignment that's pretty difficult. I don't think I'm there yet.
October 13th, 2019 at 1:38 PM ^
The truth is, Michigan has generally been more of a top 15 than top 5 program over the last half-century. You look back and there are a lot of 9-3 seasons in there, and not that many seasons of 11+ wins.
It's become tougher still in recent years as talent is increasingly concentrated out of our region and we have to recruit more nationally than almost any other historical power (Nebraska has it even tougher). Given this, we probably have to overpay our coaches nowadays to be competitive - and not only the head coach but assistants, too. Fortunately we do have that money available.
October 13th, 2019 at 1:18 PM ^
Your comment is bad and you should feel bad. As long as we have a top 5 endowment and super wealthy donors we will be a top 10 program in the eyes of coaches looking for a job.
October 13th, 2019 at 1:25 PM ^
I think you could absolutely make the argument that, in the coach's eyes, the Michigan job is a top ten job. But to be fair, I said were just likely just barely a top 20 program right now. To me, those are different things. But I do agree with you because of our history, the school, the tradition, etc., this is still a top 10 job.
October 13th, 2019 at 1:46 PM ^
Cmon man....in rigorous honest, Michigan at BEST has been the 3rd best team in the B10 during Harbaugh's 5 years.
October 13th, 2019 at 5:52 PM ^
Top 20 is different than 20th
October 13th, 2019 at 9:48 PM ^
It would depend on your definition of done better, if it's just wins or winning percentage, then UM (38 wins coming into this year), is around 12-15. If you add other things like division, conference titles and playoff appearances, then teams like USC, Utah, with less wins but division and conference championships, could jump Michiga, putting UM around 18-20.
October 13th, 2019 at 12:50 PM ^
Seriously. Why the hell do people care so much? There isn’t a salary cap.
Sorry if you think that if Harbaugh made less they’d have money for assistants.
The recent past would prove otherwise.
You guys know that misery and bitching don’t buy credibility for your fanhood, right?
Notre Dame just beat a 3-2 team at home who rolled in with their freshman backup QB coming off a concussion and a team loss to BYU by 3.
Iowa lost to Michigan by more than they did to PSU.
Don’t forget to enjoy 5-1 even while you acknowledge the necessary improvements moving forward.
And quit this race to see who can be the most negative or the most absurd the fastest and think it somehow validates you as a fan.
It doesn’t.
It makes you look like a bitch.
October 13th, 2019 at 1:26 PM ^
Do you care about ticket prices? Because Harbaugh's current salary is a big part of why our prices have to be sky high.
October 13th, 2019 at 2:43 PM ^
BTN is a big part of why salaries can be where they are, including non-revenue sports. And why not let economics determine seat prices,... no one is making anyone go to watch this product. Let your vote be cast by not buying tickets. Besides, the tailgate is always the best part of the game.
October 13th, 2019 at 3:59 PM ^
No it isn't. The main reason ticket prices are so high is because people such as yourself continue to buy them.
October 13th, 2019 at 4:05 PM ^
Ironic username
October 13th, 2019 at 9:51 PM ^
Compared to the money this program generates, his salary is peanuts.
October 13th, 2019 at 12:02 PM ^
So, I’ll put myself out here first and say this. (Edit: Ok, so not first!)
I care very little about what he’s making. The job is the same no matter the salary. I’m sure that’s an unpopular take, but if it were solely about paying the most for a coach (Or the ability to do so), then Harvard would be amazing at football.
Make no mistake, he certainly hasn’t delivered all that we hoped, but this isn’t that big of an issue for me.
October 13th, 2019 at 12:02 PM ^
It is a bit presumptuous to assume that UM would offer a new contract or that Harbaugh would want a new contract.
October 13th, 2019 at 12:04 PM ^
Coaches salary are based on supply (and more importantly) demand which is only loosely tied to on field results (see-Kingsbury, Kliff). The idea that we should pay Harbaugh less because the on field results are not what a fan base expects is a ridiculous idea. First, he would just leave and get paid elsewhere - I think the Redskins or Dolphins would over pay for him in a heartbeat. Second- what person happily accepts a pay cut? Most end up being demoralized by it which is not a trait you want in your head coach. If the school wants to get rid of Harbaugh they will, if not they will keep him and pay what he would likely get on the open market (IE close to what he is making now). Paying him less is not an option. What exactly would that accomplish anyways? It certainly wouldn't make the program stronger.
October 13th, 2019 at 2:00 PM ^
The supply and demand thing is something that sports fans constantly miss. Stafford, Cousins, Eli Manning, and Carr all make more than Tom Brady. Is that because they are better? No it's because salaries in sports are only loosely tied to results as you point out. It's more about supply and demand and where the team is at when a opening or contract comes up. Michigan had to go out and spend a ton because they were coming off a season in which they lost to Rutgers and our coach consistently put 10 men on the field.
October 13th, 2019 at 2:40 PM ^
Yep. For an NFL example, look at Kirk Cousins and Joe Flacco. Guys who have made $20M per year in their NFL careers and are both incredibly wealthy for being mediocre NFL QBs. They just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
October 13th, 2019 at 12:58 PM ^
What the fuck happened to this place?
October 13th, 2019 at 1:52 PM ^
The masses found it. Combined with a few determined trolls with a bone to pick. Voila.
I hate it. Used to be a place for useful, thoughtful discussion. That just doesn't exist here anymore.
October 13th, 2019 at 2:33 PM ^
It is sad. There is a guy on here — is it Urban Meyer Burn — who is a huge Urban Meyer fan and obvious OSU troll. He repeatedly posts “Fuck Harbaugh” and when he is feeling wordy “Harbaugh fucking sucks.” And you know what? People consistently up vote him for such insights. That this happens on a Michigan blog is sad. Serious question: what percentage of the people on here are fans of our rivals? I’m guessing about 30 percent at this point.
October 13th, 2019 at 12:06 PM ^
I think it all comes down to that Ohio state game. If we can somehow pull out the upset the pitchforks will return to the shed and at least for a short time the pressure will be off. But a loss in that game and I think both our fan base and Harbaugh will probably be parting ways. Maybe not this year but eventually down the line. He will eventually leave or be fired and end his career similar to cooper.
October 13th, 2019 at 12:12 PM ^
He will leave on his own terms. He’s not getting fired unless he does something stupid like RichRod at Arizona or Hugh Freeze.