Calling Space Coyote and other coaches: please help me understand three things

Submitted by trueblueintexas on
During the game there were two plays I did not understand the blocking design of at all. I'm hoping someone who understands the nuances of the game can help. Additionally, there is a general question I have. 1) against a four man rush, the entire offensive line zone blocked three defenders to the left and left Fitz one-on-one on the back side with a DE (Greggory, he of the three sacks). Obviously Fitz got abused and a sack ensued. Is there a blocking scheme which purposely says five O-lineman will block three players and leave a RB to go one on one in space? Why would Schofield not help Fitz and let the other four lineman handle three defensive lineman? 2) on a max protect Gardner sprinted to the right. Again zone blocking. The C, RG, RT, TE, and RB all zone blocked to the right. Lewan and Bosch zone blocked going left. That seems bad enough, what happened next is what I really don't get. Lewan barely touched the DE as if he was passing him off to Bosch, Bosch did the same thing, except everyone else who could block was all moving to the right. The DE rushed in for the sack because both routes were covered. Why would two players zone block to the opposite direction of a sprint roll out pass and then both pass off the one guy they are responsible for? I double checked, they were not setting up for a screen because Fitz was fully engaged in zone blocking to the right. 3) this is not play specific. Everyone is well aware of Hoke's feelings regarding Nebraska's claim of knowing what would be run based on tendencies. Forget the specific play call and packages, has anyone seen any evidence that Michigan is somehow tipping its plays? Is there something the O-line is doing which let's the defense know it will be a run to a specific gap before the ball is even snapped? I get guessing run vs. pass but it seemed as though Nebraska's whole defense knew exactly where to run to as well. I appreciate anyone with football intelligence to chime in.
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umchicago

November 11th, 2013 at 10:16 PM ^

it's plays like that which boggle my mind.  that's about as easy a concept you can get.  i understand young guys missing the occasional blitzer.  but consistently have 2-3 defenders blowing through the line.  youth or not.  worse o-line ever.  and it's inexecusable.

Joined: 02/05/2009

MGoPoints: 33628

TennBlue

November 11th, 2013 at 10:40 PM ^

These guys played high school ball.  They were highly regarded as recruits.  They were supposed to be pretty good coming in.  They come to Michigan and suddenly they're incompetent.

 

That they can't figure out a basic blocking scheme they should have been already using for years is difficult to comprehend.  It's like they've never played football before.

Joined: 10/12/2010

MGoPoints: 6445

Dontfakeitfunk

November 11th, 2013 at 9:33 PM ^

Football coaching is complicated and you wouldn't understand because you never played or coached. Due to our youth, our coaches are dealing with less talent than any NCAA team and they just need a few years to get their system in place. Continue spending your money on season tickets/travel bc we're going to be good in 2015 or 2017 at the latest. Be patient.

Joined: 11/10/2013

MGoPoints: 123

trueblueintexas

November 11th, 2013 at 9:44 PM ^

I'm sure there are countless things I do which are complicated and you wouldn't understand. If I'm good at what I do, I could explain it to you. Anytime you would like to talk shop about basketball which I have both playing and coaching experience in, let me know, I'll take the time to teach you.

Joined: 11/10/2008

MGoPoints: 36653

UPMichigan

November 11th, 2013 at 9:50 PM ^

Shut the fuck up. I've heard a hundred of you assholes say the same shit since 2008. It's now 2013 and I'm not waiting until 2017. Nebraska's scrubs patched together their offensive line on Saturday and still ran the ball 100x better than we have all year. I'm not buying the youth excuse. There's been too many of our players thrown in the mix this year that look as bad as the last guy that played. Funk isn't teaching shit to these players and it shows every week. How many practices does a guy need for this shit to sink in?

Joined: 01/09/2010

MGoPoints: 18971

Dontfakeitfunk

November 11th, 2013 at 10:22 PM ^

It was one thing to get run off the field by what may be the best defense in the country. Michigan's offense sucks this year and when you suck that is the kind of thing that happens. It was complete agony, but everyone with two functioning eyes had already braced for impact. It is another thing, a different thing, to get run off the field by a collection of country yokels higher on 'shine than Mary Sue Coleman who couldn't spell "run fit" if you spotted them "run fi" and exist in mortal terror that their coach will machine-gun cats at them if—when—they explode into little smithereens that once resembled a run defense. "But coach, we're already spread across most of a three-state area," the yokels said. "YAHHHH EAT NINE HUNDRED MILE PER HOUR CAT," Bo Pelini said, cranking his catling gun. "Dawwww," the yokels said moments before their faces were obliterated by cats moving so fast air friction had caused them to burst into flame, "we probably shouldn't have given up two hundred yards rushing to Illinois. Or everyone else on the schedule not named Southern Miss or Purdue." Two hundred yards. By every-damn-body. Nebraska could not stop a nine year old from going eighty yards in their spring game, and as the season progressed it became clear they were trying to. We can't call Nebraska's defense a "unit," since that would imply concerted collective action. So let's go with eleven gas molecules in the cold vacuum of Pelini. Against eleven gas molecules in the cold vacuum of Pelini, Michigan farted out production worse than that which caused a mini civil war in the Michigan fanbase after Penn State (which at least featured Devin Gardner picking up bushels of yards). It was worse than Michigan's recent debacle against Michigan State, the top defense in the country. Hack out the sacks and snaps that a battered Devin Gardner can't deal with and Michigan ran for 22 yards on 29 attempts. Oh, for the halcyon days when Michigan could pick up one yard per attempt. After the game, Nebraska informed the world of how this was possible when even Purdue acquired four yards a carry. "Whatever formation they came out in, we knew what they were going to throw at us." -Randy Gregory “We knew what they were going to do right before they did it." -Jason Ankrah The last time Michigan fans heard this, they were duly livid. They'd just watched their team lose to Texas in the Rose Bowl 38-37 EDIT: USC in the Rose Bowl 28-14. That is one thing. This is another thing, a different thing. This was the game where Michigan's Cheesecake Factory offense—they do everything terribly, but by God there's a lot of it—hit rock bottom. Michigan couldn't get one damn yard per carry because of many reasons, but #1 was unblocked Nebraska defenders plowing into Gardner and Toussaint in the backfield. Gardner was hit for TFLs on three separate inverted veers on which a Nebraska defender tore through unblocked, because there was no one to block him. Michigan would go under center and run play action that did not cause a Nebraska player to step forward one single time; Gardner looked downfield and found his receivers bracketed. Once there was only one guy in the pattern, because Al Borges is smart. He was Devin Funchess, and he had three guys surrounding him. This is comprehensive failure that goes beyond the limited talent at Michigan's disposal after Rich Rodriguez regarded offensive line recruiting as optional in his final two years at Michigan. There are dozens of teams around the country with less to work with than Michigan. Some of them have played Nebraska, and ripped them for 200 yards rushing. Even poor damn Purdue, currently chasing Big Ten futility records, acquired 82 yards on its 20 actual rushes. Purdue is more than four times as good at running the ball against Brownian motion as Michigan is. PURDUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUE. PURDUE THESE YOBS In this game the idea that Al Borges was waving flags literally telling the opposition defense what they were running went from highly likely to explicitly certain. Despite this, in his post game presser Brady Hoke once again sighed "we just didn't execute." That is not an answer. There is nothing to execute when half the time a 'shine-addled yahoo has put his helmet through your neck without being acknowledged by anyone on your team.

Joined: 11/10/2013

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Perkis-Size Me

November 11th, 2013 at 10:07 PM ^

This is absolute bullshit. How many years are we going to use this or similar excuses? Next year you'll be spouting how the reason for our struggles are because we're replacing our two tackles. But it'll be okay, because we'll just need to wait one more year before we're finally good. The year after that, you'll be telling us that we need to give it one more year because we'll need to find a way to replace JMFR, Funchess if he declares, and so on.

Plenty of coaches out there have accomplished more with a hell of a lot less. Seniors aren't the only guys who can go out and win your football games for you. Alabama graduated nearly its entire offensive line from last year and yet they're still manhandling everyone they play. Great teams find a way to replace the guys they lost and still keep on winning.

Joined: 11/30/2011

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UMgradMSUdad

November 11th, 2013 at 9:54 PM ^

Kudos to you trueblueintexas for asking some specific questions and in a rational tone.  It's a welcome reprieve from some of the OMG! The Oline sux! Fire the coaches! outbursts.

Joined: 07/02/2011

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BILG

November 11th, 2013 at 10:13 PM ^

Lewan and Schofield to guard?  To at least take away the A-gap blitz that is destroying us.  Run quicker pass plays so Devin doesn't get blown up on the edge where Kalis and Magnuson will be playing tackle?  Then maybe we can grind out at least 2 yards a carry up the middle.  I understand you want your best past protectors as pillars on the edge, but we need a stop gap at this point. It couldn't be worse, right?

Joined: 08/31/2008

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Space Coyote

November 11th, 2013 at 10:36 PM ^

They can still improve bit by bit. They can still get closer to actually getting it. There is certainly still important work and growth to be done this season from that unit. Just, I doubt it gets to the point it needs to get to be consistent this year.

I wouldn't be surprised, honestly, if the coaches think Lewan and Schofield on the same side makes sense, to see it in the bowl game. There is enough time then to rep it and it may help Schofield with his next level position a bit.

Joined: 06/18/2009

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OldSchoolWolverine

November 11th, 2013 at 11:14 PM ^

Ive thought this many many times..... at the very least put Schofield at RG, and Kalis at LG, and Miller back at C,  and have Braden at RT.  At least this would lend more experience in the interior...

Your suggestion is not far-fetched...its actually playing to our strength, even putting Lewan at LG.... the key is who would play LT....maybe Magnuson....

Boy I hope this picks up steam.

Joined: 11/03/2013

MGoPoints: 27119

Swayze Howell Sheen

November 11th, 2013 at 10:28 PM ^

no amount of Space Coyote rationale is helping me anymore. I am convinced: some subset of coaches aren't very good at their job. It could be just Funk, it could be Funk + Al, and (here's the bad news), it might go all the way to the top man.

 

Joined: 10/05/2008

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BILG

November 11th, 2013 at 10:36 PM ^

But even I get tired of rabble, rabble...fire Borges, screw Funk, Hoke is a cheerleader, etc.  I'm pissed, but nothing we say will change the situation.  So might as well try to understand why we suck and then bitch.  But yeah, coaches clearly aren't getting through to the players.  No rationalization or apologist can change my mind on that.

Joined: 08/31/2008

MGoPoints: 1344

Amutnal

November 12th, 2013 at 7:47 AM ^

With you 100%. These guys saying that all of us don't see the long-term picture and we just need to have patience until 2016 when things get better are getting to me. The long term picture that I see is that of mediocrity. To stoop to the levels we have in this process is enough for me. To see no improvement is enough for me. To play to a draw with Akron and UConn and lose to PSU were enough. Back to back -20+ yard rushing games were enough. Watching Gardner regress each game us enough. I don't want to wait until 2016 because I feel we need to cut our losses now, starting with Borges and Funk.

What else no one talks about is how badly Hoke manages end of half/game/time outs. He made huge fuck ups in the LSU game (delay of game x 2), time out after out of bounds pass and then vs Nebraska he sat on 3 time outs when he should have used them to give us more time. And this is without wearing a headset!!!! He just isn't that sharp. These coaches I just can't see giving us a tactical advantage outside Mattison at any point in the future. Do you guys honestly think that this level of ineptitude is a requisite at a school like Michigan with the talent we have star-wise to almost lost to Akron who hadn't one a road game in 8 years?!?!

Joined: 02/05/2011

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steve sharik

November 11th, 2013 at 10:34 PM ^

Protection where the entire line gap blocks one direction and the back the other is pure gap scheme.  As such, the back is responsible for the outside gap to the side he blocks.

Slide protection goes like this:

  • In the video embedded above, it is slide left.  Starting from the right side of the line, each OL in pass pro blocks the DL over him.  
  • The first uncovered OL-man (in this case OT Schofield) gap blocks (or slides) to the left, and will communicate across the line that he starts the slide.  
  • So, Williams has the RDE, then Schofield is uncovered, so he has right B-gap (his left side, hence the terminology slide left), the ROG has right A-gap, the C has the left A, etc.  
  • The back is responsible to pick up a blitzing LB or stunting DL from inside out.  If two or more players show from the C gap out, the RB takes the inside most defender, and the QB "takes" the remaining by throwing hot, usually designated by a flat route or shallow cross.  The back does not check release outside, but if no one shows he is a check down right behind the DL.

So, in the embedded video above, the play at 1:10, the player coming at Schofield is a blitzing LB.  If he went inside Scho, Scho would've taken him.  Since he went outside, he's Fitz's man.  Fitz should've had his eyes on that LB pre-snap, and as soon as he started blitzing, assumed he would be taking him unless he went inside Schofield, making sure that Schofield was engaged with him in the B gap.  Fitz also should've seen that the OLB to his blocking side didn't come, and that the DE was manned up by Williams, meaning that the only threat was that blitzing LB or a looping DT or LB, who would be coming off Schofield's butt late.  I don't know why Fitz is popping outside like that; there's zero threat there.  This one's on Fitz.

Joined: 08/08/2009

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Space Coyote

November 11th, 2013 at 10:47 PM ^

They showed a replay in game from the backside and that LB was crashing right at Schofield after his slide. So Schofield's eyes were inside on that guy but he continued to slide past. They guy did attack Schofield's inside gap from my memory of the replay.

Now, looking at it again I do agree more re: Fitz I still don't know. There was the stacked LB over the DE that Fitz was looking at and stepping directly to. I really think the replay view from the back shows this much better.

Here's a link of the replay

Joined: 06/18/2009

MGoPoints: 38962

Space Coyote

November 11th, 2013 at 10:58 PM ^

There was a LB stacked directly over the DE.

Also, Spielman says that Fitz goes to chip him, implying he is Schofield's man but Fitz is going to be the primary blocker. He attacked Schofield straight up and pulled a swim move on Schofield to get around him. He was directly over Schofield and Schofield never even reached. Fitz was going to chip off of Schofield block and likely work out into a route. Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree here, but I hear Spielman saying that it's Schofield's guy and Fitz is trying to chip, but he doesn't get any help from Schofield (as in Schofield didn't do his job, which is to allow Fitz to simply chip). I mean, his starting path is even inside of Schofield, it's not until Schofield slides directly beneath him that the rusher desides to swim outside of him. But the move if very clearly done on Schofield.

Joined: 06/18/2009

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BILG

November 11th, 2013 at 10:45 PM ^

that our coaches ran a play that purposely isolates Fitz, perhaps the worst blocking back in Michigan history to block a LB or DE 1 on 1.  No, this one is not on Fitz.  It's on the morons that draw up the plays that highlight our weaknesses.  Just like when we tried to turn Denard into a west coast QB last year.  These fuckers are clueless and will continue their square peg round hole approach regardless of evidence against their brilliant strategies.

Joined: 08/31/2008

MGoPoints: 1344

Space Coyote

November 11th, 2013 at 10:46 PM ^

What he saying is technically correct. The slide protection is a gap scheme where your blockers are pass protecting a particular gap to one direction or the other. Because of that, yes, it does sometimes isolate your RB, that's the downside of not being able to do a more man blocking pass protection scheme that is more complex.

I personally disagree with him based on the replay that I linked, but everything he stated is technically correct based on what he saw.

Joined: 06/18/2009

MGoPoints: 38962

BILG

November 11th, 2013 at 10:51 PM ^

we should not run shit where the RB is a key blocker.  On a blitz we have no choice, but fuck, why add to the cluster fuck when Fitz is back there by designing plays where he is counted on to block.  On that note, we shouldn't run shit where our TE needs to block, as since Williams was injured, that isn't going to fly either.  Just give up on the play action slow developing shit, the slow developing max protect shit, and the run up the middle shit.  It AIN'T happening this year.

Joined: 08/31/2008

MGoPoints: 1344

Reader71

November 12th, 2013 at 1:47 AM ^

Full slides are not ever paired with slow-developing plays. Not in this case, or any other. They are paired with short passes, as they effectively create a sliding wall that should NEVER let allow for a free runner, inside or out. But, like any football play, it has a weakness, and this is the RB blocking the backside edge. But people who coach know this and thus, full slides are never paired with long-developing routes. This is to mitigate the effect of a bad block by the RB, who will generally be overmatched and thus, prone to bad blocks. Borges isn't calling these protections because he wants to. This is what I've said from day 1. His job is hard because this line is so bad. The issue being discussed here is a perfect example of that. This protection is the easiest one to teach and execute. So we are using it a ton. And we are still fucking it up. Funk is failing, Borges is failing, the players are failing, the offense is failing. We all agree. The good thing is that these discussion are a) not stupid, b) fun, c) extremely pertinent to the real issues that this team faces. It is way more worthwhile to have these threads than the ones that complain about pressers. This is the stuff you want to use to make your claim that a coach should be fired. Sharpen your knowledge in threads luke these and you'll get these moron coaches out of here in no time.

Joined: 08/30/2009

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steve sharik

November 11th, 2013 at 10:59 PM ^

A DT?  Double team?

If you have Fitz simply helping, that's 2 blockers for 1 defender, and either someone else is free or you're in max protect and the D is playing coverage, which happened when Devin was sitting back there for days with 2 or 3 receivers trying to get open against 6 or 7 pass defenders.

I don't have as much problem with assigning Fitz or Green to do it, but asking them to do it so many times a game by living in 3rd and long.

Joined: 08/08/2009

MGoPoints: 13860

steve sharik

November 11th, 2013 at 10:50 PM ^

....I personally wouldn't be doing slide with three rookies at G-C-G and poor pass blockers at RB.  I would be pure man (aka big-on-big or pop-dual), which is simple: you block the DL over you.  If you're uncovered, you look for stunters and blitzers from inside-out.  The RB is responsible for any blitzing LB to his side who is unaccounted for, also inside-out.  It's hard on the guards when they're uncovered and then they have to pop out to pick up overhang defenders blitzing off the edge with speed, but then the QB has a huge pocket to step up into and big-time running lanes to scramble into (a particular strength of Devin's).

Also, I'd be doing a lot of 3-step and sprint-out on early downs.  High percentage throws and run/pass options for Devin.  No way any defense in this league (or maybe any) could cover double slants from Gallon and Funchess.  The only way you take that away is by playing zone D with OLBs and safeties getting into passing lanes.  Boom, there's your softer box in which to run.  But you have to throw those routes a lot to give enough tendency info to the opposing coaches to get them to honor it.

Lastly, the best blitz beaters are screens, as evidenced by the ones to Fitz and Funchess.  Hoke claimed those types of things only work once, and can't be repeated.  Well, it's worth trying to repeat more than non-functional manball runs into defenses where everyone outside of the corners and free safety are screaming downhill.

Mind-boggling why they weren't doing these things since after the Penn State game.  Also mind-boggling that they either don't self-scout or think they're good enough to outplay obvious tendency give-aways.

Joined: 08/08/2009

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