The Athletic: How Kentucky has outhustled Michigan for Ohio recruits
In a lengthy profile of Kentucky recruiting coordinator Vince Marrow ($), who Mel Tucker is reportedly trying to bring to Michigan State, Ari Wasserman (The Athletic's OSU beat writer) describes how Kentucky has focused on taking OSU's Ohio leftovers away from Big Ten schools like Michigan. Michigan is behind not only OSU, but also Kentucky, ND, and MSU in recruiting 4- and 5-star prospects from Ohio:
Ohio always has been a main source of Big Ten talent, but a lot of that talent now is headed to Kentucky. UK identified the niche and attacked it, using Ohio-born coaches.
In the past seven recruiting cycles (2014-20), there were 93 four- and five-star prospects in Ohio. Ohio State predictably signed the most (38), followed by Kentucky (10), Notre Dame (eight), Michigan State (seven) and Michigan (five); the rest of the Big Ten has signed five total. That means Kentucky has signed almost 10 percent of the blue-chip prospects in Ohio in that span.
That’s a stark difference from what was happening before Stoops got to UK. In the 2009-2013 classes, there were 88 four- and five-star players in Ohio — and UK signed two. Ohio State (39) and Michigan (17) were the dominant schools.
Sense the pattern? Before Stoops and Marrow arrived at Kentucky, the Wildcats weren’t a factor in Ohio. Since Stoops and Marrow brought Kentucky into Ohio, the Wildcats have signed more blue-chip Ohio prospects than anybody outside of OSU. Not only that, Kentucky has signed more total Ohio prospects (47, one more than Michigan State) than any Big Ten school not named Ohio State...
Michigan, meanwhile, barely even attempts to recruit Ohio anymore even though the state has provided the Wolverines some of their best players over the years. The reason for these things happening? Marrow slips back into his chair and grins.
“The only team we have to track in Ohio is Ohio State because if they want an Ohio kid and recruit him the right way from the beginning, they are likely going to get them. But every other team, I’m not worried about them because we have beaten all of them for recruits in Ohio,” Marrow said, “What’s going on at other schools? I’m not going to say anything. You can come up with your own conclusion by what you see in the numbers. The proof is in the pudding.”
Kentucky is willing to take prospects that Michigan won't take—sure—and Kentucky may also be doing below-board things. But I'm curious to know how much Michigan is preemptively conceding these recruits to other schools.
February 12th, 2020 at 12:14 PM ^
Without saying which specific players choose Kentucky > Michigan, this article is meaningless. Who did we miss out on that Kentucky got?
February 12th, 2020 at 12:16 PM ^
One example could be Justin Rogers, the top-100 Michigan OG who was offered by Michigan but chose Kentucky. (Some Michigan types claim that Michigan soured on Rogers after offering him; other Michigan types claim that Rogers sold himself to the highest bidder.) Though he’s a MI product not an OH one.
But a simpler answer may be the OH kids that end up at Notre Dame, all of whom should meet Michigan's admissions standards, and ND is comparably as clean as Michigan in its recruiting conduct.
As the article states, there has been a precipitous decline in the number of 4- and 5- star kids Michigan has pulled out of Ohio. That in alone should tell you that there are more kids that Michigan would take that it’s not getting.
February 12th, 2020 at 12:32 PM ^
The article is about Ohio kids going to Kentucky instead of Michigan. Last I checked, Justin Rogers is from Michigan.
February 12th, 2020 at 12:45 PM ^
Rogers said himself that Michigan didn't recruit him that hard. This is a poor example.
6.7.0February 12th, 2020 at 1:12 PM ^
Or the fact that he's not from Ohio.
February 12th, 2020 at 3:00 PM ^
It's worse because he's from Michigan, you simpleton.
February 12th, 2020 at 3:30 PM ^
Read the title of the post genius.
February 12th, 2020 at 4:01 PM ^
You're poo-pooing Communist Football's comment because the title says Ohio...makes sense. I fear for our country's future.
February 12th, 2020 at 4:08 PM ^
Dude, he said the guy was not from Ohio. Michigan would be considered not Ohio. Does happy hour start early in Iowa?
February 12th, 2020 at 4:31 PM ^
The question was about guys that Kentucky is taking that Michigan wants. I cited Justin Rogers as an example of someone Kentucky took that Michigan wanted (albeit not from Ohio). As W from Iowa states, that Kentucky could beat Michigan for an in-state recruit is arguably worse, though some argue that Rogers is not that example due to bribes and/or academics.
February 12th, 2020 at 4:45 PM ^
Thank you. Yes, happy hour starts early here too!
February 13th, 2020 at 1:37 AM ^
The question was about guys that Kentucky is taking that Michigan wants.
That was not what the comment you replied to was saying. It said the article, about Kentucky beating Michigan head to head for Ohio recruits, is meaningless without examples.
You have an example of a Michigan kid that Michigan stopped recruiting long before he signed with UK.
February 12th, 2020 at 1:21 PM ^
Total hot take here, but my hunch is Rogers never lives up to his 5-star recruiting profile.
February 12th, 2020 at 1:43 PM ^
Sad, we tend to say that for a lot of the highly ranked kids that we do not get.
February 12th, 2020 at 2:04 PM ^
Sad, we tend to say that for a lot of the highly ranked kids that we do not get.
It's not sad. It's human nature. It's survival. We remember the bad more than the good in many things in life that involve emotions or pain because it's a protective mechanism for survival. There are something like three times as many words for negative emotions as positive ones in the English language.
It's hard to say the cause because more often that not kids just don't pan out. Living up to a 5-star recruiting profile is difficult. But, more often than not highly ranked kids with unusual recruitments don't live up to the hype. Is it the kind of kid that has an unusual recruitment or just the fact that it's difficult to live up to the hype? I'm not sure, but I still stand behind my hunch whatever the cause. I don't mind being the pessimist.
February 12th, 2020 at 4:08 PM ^
Agree about Rogers not living up to expectations. And keep in mind, it just wasn't UM. Schools like Bama, Clemson, OSU and Georgia all offered Rogers early in the process and backed away. When Rogers committed to Kentucky, none of those boards made hardly a mention of it. So it wasn't like UM got beat out for the kid.
February 12th, 2020 at 2:14 PM ^
But with ND there is a Catholic factor to consider so it isn't really a fair comparison.
To me we should be doing better than MSU with Ohio blue chips. If MSU wants to fill their roster with 3 stars from Ohio so be it, I won't lose sleep over that. But we shouldn't be trailing MSU when it comes to 4 and 5 star Ohio recruits.
February 12th, 2020 at 2:33 PM ^
To Kentucky it is the same rather they recruit Michigan or Ohio. Kentucky cannot beat sec teams in sec country for big recruits. So they went north to Ohio and Michigan to make up the difference.
2020 4*DT Justin Rogers, they were in on him for several years. Michigan not until later and it was already over. That is a problem. Michigan needs to be ahead on players in state. Also 3* OT Deondre Bufford and 3* WR Earnest Sanders.
2018 4*OG Marquan McCall, 3* S Deandre Square
So they aren't taking their pickings but they have won a few important battles. Harbaugh and company have clearly not taken as many ohio recruits and lost a few in state that my personal thought isn't bad overall but needs some attention. And not so much Kentucky as much as the overall when Logan Brown/Devonte Dobbs, Anthony Bradford and Julian Barnett went to other schools from in state. Granted two went to msu.. and overall we had very good classes with equal or greater rated talent.
I agree with others, I think UK has hurt Msu/indiana/Wisconsin/Purdue and others far more than Michigan or PennSt. And the comments are a bit funny as well from their coaches. They have landed one or two top ten Ohio recruits, Lynn Bowden and can't think if they landed another and that was due to off field issues. Most of their recruits are in the 15-40 range low 4* to 3* recruits.
February 12th, 2020 at 3:30 PM ^
The next one to join that list could be Damon Payne, the #2 player right now in MI for the class of 21. Could come to Kentucky / OSU.
February 14th, 2020 at 10:06 AM ^
Can we stop with this fucking nonsense that we have different admission standards? WE DO NOT. This is an old trope that helps soothe our anger for not winning shit in Football. We simply are just not getting the studs.
February 12th, 2020 at 12:33 PM ^
Exactly. Seems like this would hurt MSU a lot more, seeing as how their classes are laughably low in the rankings.
I'm guessing KY also beat out Bama for Rogers.
He's just raising that MSU asking price by singling out Michigan. Let him talk.
February 12th, 2020 at 12:51 PM ^
I think the question is who could we have recruited that we didn’t to ultimately have them end up at Kentucky. We will never know of course. But effort is half the battle, maybe more in recruiting, and it seems like we’ve conceded Ohio. That speaks to the recruiting leadership and with so much weight being put on assistants, maybe they don’t have the bandwidth to recruit in Ohio.
February 12th, 2020 at 1:01 PM ^
I see a lot of excuses in this thread. Why did Michigan attract 17 4- and 5-star Ohio HS prospects from 2009-13?
February 12th, 2020 at 1:07 PM ^
Because Hoke emphasized local recruiting while Harbaugh has at different times focused on NJ, Illinois, Georgia, Florida, Cali, Texas, which are arguably more talent rich states. You know that Ohio is going to get the top talent in Ohio because of the history that Tressel and Meyer established. After that you’re fighting teams for talent that OSU doesn’t want. It isn’t like the days of Bo and Carr where Michigan is actually getting the top talent of Ohio.
February 12th, 2020 at 1:13 PM ^
That's precisely why it matters. The more we succeed in Ohio, it impacts OSU's recruiting directly.
February 12th, 2020 at 1:18 PM ^
Does it though? How are you competing with them if they don’t even want that player in the first place? Michigan fought for Zach Harrison like crazy 2 cycles ago. They spent a ton of energy to get him and ultimately still failed. This year Michigan basically had their class done by July and could redirect their sources to more productive fields.
February 12th, 2020 at 1:21 PM ^
The person interviewed in the article you are citing says that any recruit OSU wants in Ohio, they get.
February 12th, 2020 at 2:48 PM ^
That's precisely the issue. We need to be competing at every powerhouse HS in Ohio *so that* we can beat OSU for top recruits. If you abandon the state entirely, you can't be competitive when you actually do want someone that OSU also wants.
February 12th, 2020 at 3:32 PM ^
If we're wasting time trying to pull elite recruits that OSU is going to get anyways, we'll miss guys in other regions.
The entire Ohio recruiting thing is a red herring. You want elite players no matter where they come from.
And people who say "they play harder in the rivalry because they get it" are just old dudes trying to explain a world they don't understand. These are elite athletes, they are insanely competitive, they work all year - they absolutely give 100% of what they have in big games to win. They won't try harder because they're from Ohio because there is no harder to give.
February 12th, 2020 at 6:38 PM ^
OSU Players: We set aside practice time for Michigan every day.
UofM Players: It's just another game.
I wouldn't have to look at the last 20 years of results to know which team has been dominating the series.
First, elite athlete or not, they are still 18-22 year olds. If someone told you you've got the emotional stability of a teenager, would you consider that a compliment? We assume these players are fully grown adults, capable of compartmentalizing their emotions in a professional manner, when (in fact) many of these kids still haven't learned not to mix darks and lights in the washing machine. I'm not saying that to slight them, but to point out that we do an awful lot of projecting on these athletes, who are still trying to learn how to be adults.
Secondly, never underestimate the abilities of players looking to prove everyone wrong. Many of MSU's best players wanted to get into UofM, but did not get the chance. These are the guys who will always lay it all on the line on gameday. Why shouldn't we be giving more OH prospects a chance to stick it to the school that spurned them. It's not like they're subpar athletes, and we wouldn't have to compromise our efforts for top tier recruits elsewhere to do this. I believe you're correct that we're wasting too much time and effort trying to sway the very top OH kids (who are already virtual locks to OSU), when we could be focusing on the other sixty-something 4*'s from OH with chips on their shoulders. Say what you will about Dantonino, but one of the ways he became the all-time winningest coach in MSU history was by exploiting the "chip on your shoulder" mentality with a bunch of 2 and 3* recruits. That worked out pretty well for him. It'd be interesting to see what that line of thinking could accomplish with 4* talent in Ann Arbor.
Reading this article just makes me think we really should have gone hard after Marrow as an assistant, because he gets it.
February 13th, 2020 at 2:25 PM ^
You're just an old guy.
February 12th, 2020 at 4:23 PM ^
For the most part, that's true. The only recruits in the last 10 years or so that OSU went after really hard and lost out on were OL Eichenberg and Kramer to ND which was basically the Catholic connection and Carman to Clemson. I believe they got everybody else that they really wanted in Ohio and put a major effort into. Plus, keep in mind, 2020 was considered the weakest Ohio HS talent year in maybe a decade or so. 2021 though is back to a strong one so we might want to take a look at some of those 2nd tier Ohio recruits which are still very good
February 12th, 2020 at 1:42 PM ^
Yup, remember when we had Zach Harrison on the precipice of commiting before Urban left and Day put on the full court press following the beatdown in Columbus? That's the kind thing that use to go our way and made a HUGE difference in The Game. I'm not saying we need Ohio kids, but that used to a path to success and I'm sure we could make it happen again and help reverse the negative trend
February 12th, 2020 at 1:39 PM ^
This is the answer. Ohio is logically an important part of Michigan's recruiting area, but if a HOF coach locks down the top-end talent, how badly do you want to fight Sparty and some SEC cheaters for the leftovers? There are better paths of less resistance.
February 12th, 2020 at 1:45 PM ^
There are still good 4 star leftovers vs. going for some 3 star players from other states.
February 12th, 2020 at 1:28 PM ^
Because Michigan recruits more nationally than they did 10 years ago. They go after who they want no matter where they live and Kentucky ain’t signing a bunch of guys Michigan wanted from Ohio. OSU is, but Kentucky sure isn’t and MSU won’t be either, with or without Vince Fucking Morrow or whatever his name is.
February 12th, 2020 at 2:36 PM ^
Is that why Ohio St takes the rivalry more seriously? I'd think that Ohio kids would desperately want to beat Ohio St every year.
February 12th, 2020 at 6:28 PM ^
Well, they probably do but the talent and scheme still has to be there.
February 12th, 2020 at 1:48 PM ^
We didn't out recruit Kentucky for those guys, we outrecruited OSU.
February 12th, 2020 at 2:58 PM ^
To be clear I wasn’t making excuses. I think it’s an indictment of the program to some extent. I remember Urban said he was gonna recruit nationally but he still got the cream from Ohio. We need to fight for good players around the country including Ohio. I think recruiting in general is not a well oiled machine and we need to do better.
February 12th, 2020 at 3:49 PM ^
Yeah because we were an elite national championship contending team beating osu consistently during those years
February 12th, 2020 at 9:15 PM ^
It’s not like it did us a lot of good. Wins matter more than stars.
February 12th, 2020 at 12:18 PM ^
Well Michigan’s class is routinely in the top 10. Where is UKs?
UK got Lynn Bowden bc neither UM or OSU would take him bc of off the field issues/grades.
I would like UM to get more Ohio kids, but this doesn’t seem like UM is conceding anything. Sure maybe there needs to be more of a focus, but UK is getting some kids that are/might be considered high risk for UM.
February 12th, 2020 at 3:16 PM ^
UK's recruiting rankings are probably more accurate because the services are giving their commits a boost in order to sell subscriptions to the much large UM fanbase.
February 12th, 2020 at 3:29 PM ^
?? That seems like one of those things that's nearly impossible to prove.
February 12th, 2020 at 12:21 PM ^
Harbaugh tried to hire Marrow how many times now? The dude doesn’t want to work for Harbaugh/Michigan.
If Tucker pulls him to MSU, then oh well. It’s not like Michigan cares about Ohio recruiting anymore anyway as evidenced by the lack of croots from said state over the past couple cycles.
I’m sure it hurts M when it comes to the Game bc the intensity from having regional players only magnifies the importance of it but OSU is so many stratospheres above Michigan now who cares.
As long as M doesn’t let Little Brother creep back into relevance I’m good.
More basketball articles please. Outside of MSU buffoonery, it’s depressing to think about M football.
February 12th, 2020 at 12:39 PM ^
According to Sam Webb on WTKA today Harbaugh never offered a job to Marrow. Dunno if that's spin or what because I remember when there were discussions about Barrow joining UM on here.
February 12th, 2020 at 12:40 PM ^
Yeah, being reported MSU is close to offering Marrow $1 million/year. Tucker/Marrow would be a strong recruiting tandem.
https://kentuckysportsradio.com/football-2/michigan-state-is-coming-after-vince-marrow/
February 12th, 2020 at 1:02 PM ^
Hoke recruited well and we all saw how that ended
February 12th, 2020 at 1:22 PM ^
QB recruiting was the clear failure.