After seeing late Dantonio, I have more appreciation for Lloyd
You can say plenty about the late Lloyd years, but after seeing Dantonio fall off so dramatically, I do want to shout out a couple of positives. Lloyd was obviously more willing to make some of the rough decisions than Mork, including letting Herrman go, make changes at OC (that obviously didn’t go far enough but they made changes), and his recruiting obviously didn’t fall out like State’s has.
November 18th, 2019 at 6:34 PM ^
Lloyd was also a much better human being than Mark Dantonio even aspires to be.
November 18th, 2019 at 6:37 PM ^
Did he find the program better than when he stepped into the HC job?
November 18th, 2019 at 11:51 PM ^
He left it with the only national championship most of us have seen in our lifetimes.
November 18th, 2019 at 7:10 PM ^
Lloyd was a human being, enough said
November 18th, 2019 at 9:41 PM ^
No argument as to integrity. The op is specifically mentioning recruits. For that dimension of analysis, it looks pretty tough for ole Lloyd
November 19th, 2019 at 1:27 AM ^
What was wrong with Carr's recruiting at the end? His last 3 classes were:
2006: 11th Nationally, .8974 avg/player, 1 - 5 star, 4 - Top 50 recruits, 6 - Top 100 recruits
2005: 5th Nationally, .8894, 2 - 5 star, 2 - Top 50, 7 - Top 100
2004: 6th Nationally, .9009, 1 - 5 star, 2 - Top 50, 5 - Top 100
For comparison, below are Harbaugh's last 3 classes:
2019: 8th Nationally, .9078, 2 - 5 star, 3 - Top 50, 3 - Top 100
2018: 22nd Nationally, .8875, 0 - 5 star, 0 - Top 50, 0 - Top 100
2017: 5th Nationally, 2 - 5 star, 3 - Top 50, 6 - Top 100
November 19th, 2019 at 8:39 AM ^
It is well documented. Lloyd walked into a stacked deck of studs. Rich Rod walked into an empty cupboard. Not my words. Lloyd actively allowed the talent to leave. That was shitty to the program. His intentions may have been pure, results speak for themselves.
November 19th, 2019 at 8:49 AM ^
How many scholarship offensive linemen did Rich Rod have on the roster coming into the 2008 season?
November 18th, 2019 at 11:02 PM ^
November 18th, 2019 at 11:40 PM ^
Lloyd also wanted to step down after 2006, but Bill Martin was so inept he was caught off guard and begged him for one last go around. The coaches hired in 2006? Brian Kelly, Jim Harbaugh, Nick Saban, Mark Dantonio, Jimbo Fisher (OC-Hired as HCIW at FSU). Possibly the most impactful coaching carousel ever.
November 19th, 2019 at 9:13 AM ^
We will never know, but...my guess is that Michigan would have ended up with Brian Kelley is Lloyd Carr had not stayed that extra year...
November 19th, 2019 at 9:56 AM ^
1000% this^^^
Bill Martin created the mess
November 18th, 2019 at 6:37 PM ^
I mean I love Lloyd and he is orders of magnitude a better person than Dantonio, but the end of Lloyd is basically if Dantonio retired after 2015 and his successor went 4-8ish after. Dantonio is working with a bare cupboard (that he created), while Lloyd retired before it was completely bare, but the transition to Rich Rod took out a lot of people
Edit: changed 2017 to 2015, had my seasons mixed up
November 18th, 2019 at 6:38 PM ^
Carr didn’t leave a bare cupboard.
November 18th, 2019 at 6:52 PM ^
Yes, he most certainly did
November 18th, 2019 at 7:07 PM ^
Our biggest hole in 2008 was at the QB position. Ryan Mallet may have stayed had there been a transition with a similar offensive system.
In 2008 we had a walk on QB and Threet and neither seemed comfortable in the system. So we chose to run a system that we couldn't ever optimally run well.
On the other side of the ball, our defense was actually not bad, considering all the 3 and outs, turnovers, and short-fields that our offense kept doing to put them in a bad position.
November 18th, 2019 at 7:09 PM ^
Mallet was known to be out the door before Lloyd announced he was retiring.
November 18th, 2019 at 7:27 PM ^
This article suggests otherwise.
Jim Mallett said his son had a great experience at Michigan. However, Rodriguez runs a spread offense that works well with mobile quarterbacks. Ryan Mallett is best suited for a pro-style offense.
"Different system _ can't do anything about that," Jim Mallett said. "Had to find somewhere Ryan would fit in."
November 18th, 2019 at 9:53 PM ^
More to the point though, what was Carr supposed to do? Predict that Mallett was leaving and beg him to stay or something?
November 18th, 2019 at 10:13 PM ^
Lloyd not only recruited Mallett but also landed Steven Threet as a transfer. You can argue that other position groups (OL especially) weren't the best when he left but it's hard to bash him for the QB situation.
Why do you credit Mo for building the program? Shouldn't Bo get the credit, in that case? Why is the guy who was our head coach 5 years the master architect?
In any event, 13 years is a long time to just "coast."
November 18th, 2019 at 11:31 PM ^
RichRod left Hoke the 108th best defense in the country, and his last two recruiting classes included a grand total of three offensive line recruits (four if you want to include Tony Posada who quit football for good after exactly one week of fall camp, so he never even attended a class at UM). It was a giant cluster, and that was a huge factor why the offense was a train wreck in 2013 and 2014, because the OL was so awful. That's the definition of an empty cupboard. RichRod literally signed one OL in 2010, Christian Pace. When in college football history have you ever seen that?
November 19th, 2019 at 11:29 AM ^
Both RRod and Hoke are bad coaches. The distinguishing factor is the different level of institutional support each man received.
RRod was always an outsider and had forces inside the athletic department and portions of the fanbase actively working against him. His level of financial commitment for assistants was paltry compared to what they gave Hoke. RRod got turned down 250K for his preferred DC. Hoke was given 1M to bring in Greg Mattison from the NFL. Hoke had the full support of the institutions and a unified fan base.
RRod may never have achieved much in a hypothetical year 4 and/or 5. But had he been given the financial support to build the staff he wanted, maybe he does better. We'll never know.
November 18th, 2019 at 8:34 PM ^
And what OL did we have in 2008?
November 18th, 2019 at 11:48 PM ^
Pointing to the OL is ironic. RichRod left the OL cupboard much more bare than he found it, signing exactly one offensive lineman in 2010 and having two in the fold in 2011 when he got fired (three if you count Tony Posada, but then you're counting a kid who quit football because he wasn't into it before he ever stepped foot in a classroom). Three OL in two classes. But yeah, Denard.
November 19th, 2019 at 8:10 AM ^
There was also the part where he didn't even try to convince Adrian Arrington or Mario Manningham to not go pro. Mario was gone, but Arrington and Mallet might have gotten us a 6-6 year. Not great, but way less damaging than 3-9.
November 19th, 2019 at 8:48 AM ^
Mario was gone, but Arrington and Mallet might have gotten us a 6-6 year. Not great, but way less damaging than 3-9.
I fucking hate this argument that gets constantly made as if its an either-or proposition. If we bring in Rodriguez and we have a less radical transition and Michigan limps to a 6-6 record, everyone is still pissed and dissatisfied. Everyone. You don't get to apply prescience to this argument and say 6-6 would've been acceptable because it's not 3-9.
November 18th, 2019 at 7:21 PM ^
He most certainly did not.
Molk, Graham, Warren, Threet, Matthews, Koger, Trent, Martin, Stonum, Tim Jamison, Terrance Taylor, Jr Hemingway, Brandon Minor, Carlos Brown, Stevie Brown, Demens, Mouton, Schilling, etc. Not a bad roster.
If UM continued to run a pro style which fit Threet’s skill set they had enough talent to win 8-9 games with good coaching.
November 18th, 2019 at 8:00 PM ^
there was talent on D for sure. however, they weren't winning 8-9 games with that OL. by far the worst i've ever seen here, especially after injuries and the fat guy that quit. they had a LT start a game that reminded me of richard kiel (aka jaws). he just stood there as dudes ran around him.
November 19th, 2019 at 1:51 AM ^
http://genuinelysarcastic.blogspot.com/2010/11/attention-to-detail.html
There was more than enough talent to win at least 8 games. Had Les Miles been hired instead of Rich Rod, there's no doubt we would have kept our bowl streak alive and never lost to the likes of Toledo.
November 18th, 2019 at 8:39 PM ^
I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. A lot of those players you listed weren't that good. Not bad players, but hardly great. How many of those guys would be starting on this year's team? Molk, Graham. Anyone else? I'm not trying to rip on Carr here, but he definitely fell off a lot late in his career. You can't tell me 2008 had a lot of talent, when 2007 wasn't even that good of a team even with some great talent (and all the best talent was gone after that year).
November 18th, 2019 at 9:46 PM ^
2008 was one of the least talented teams overall in the modern era. Look at how few of them played in the NFL.
November 19th, 2019 at 1:28 PM ^
Plenty of them got drafted.
Morgan Trent
Terrance Taylor
Stevie Brown
Zoltan Mesko
Steven Schilling
Brandon Graham
Jonas Mouton
Junior Hemingway
Mike Martin
David Molk
That's 10 players that ended up getting drafted. Consider RR had 8 drafted players total from his time at Michigan.
November 18th, 2019 at 9:29 PM ^
I always thought Brandon Minor was criminally underrated and really could have been something with better coaching.
November 18th, 2019 at 10:24 PM ^
Threet looked pretty bad in 2008 (though still better than Sheridan) but to be fair, that really was not the ideal offense for him, nor did he have much of an OL to protect him. He took a beating that year, repeatedly knocked out of games.
Threet had some crummy luck: he committed to Georgia Tech and then they hired Paul Johnson and ran the triple option. Then he transferred to Michigan and we hired Rich Rodriguez. He finally found a pro-style team in Arizona State, only to suffer repeated concussions and retire from football.
Threet's Wikipedia page is like a time capsule from 2011. I guess he's no longer involved in football?
November 18th, 2019 at 10:20 PM ^
If you think hiring Rich Rod and then telling him to run a pro style offense is a good idea you're nuts.
November 19th, 2019 at 1:51 AM ^
Nope...
QB: Steve Threet
RB: McGuffie/Brown/Shaw (with Minor on double-secret probation)
LT: Ortmann
LG: McAvoy
C: Molk
RG: Moosman
RT: Schilling
TE: Butler
WR: Stonum
WR: Odoms
DE: Graham
DT: Taylor
DT: Johnson (with Martin making early contributions)
DE: Jamison (with Van Bergen making contributions)
WILL: Mouton
MIKE: Ezeh
SAM: Thompson
CB: Warren
CB: Trent
FS: Brown
SS: Harrison
That offense was young. You had a redshirt freshman QB, two true freshman WR's, and three new starters on the OL.
Conversely, the defense was a solid unit. Not hollow in the least! The DL should have been the Big Ten's best that year, or at least close to it. You had a senior Thompson at SAM, a returning starter in Ezeh at MIKE, and Jonas Mouton ready at WILL - and he played some good football in '08. Warren and Trent were a solid duo at corner. Harrison was a senior at safety, and Brown was a junior.
What could we reasonably have expected had Lloyd or DeBord continued to coach the team?
In 2008, we would have surely played the type of football that many of Michigan's faithful wanted to see go away: conservative, three-yards-in-a-cloud-of-dust, ball control football, keeping a stout defense fresh and making just enough plays throwing over the top to beat most teams.
Justin Boren would have still been here in 2008 and 2009, and Manningham and/or Arrington might have been around for 2008 as well. (I am assuming Mallett and McGuffie were gone regardless.) But Steve Threet would have had a fighting chance in a passing offense behind an OL of Ortmann-Boren-Molk-Moosman-Schilling with Manningham and Arrington at WR, and Stonum and Hemingway behind them. Certainly a better shot than he did running read-option and throwing to freshmen.
When you look back at 2008, think of all the games that were there to be won: Utah, Toledo, Purdue, MSU... even PSU and ND. Under Coach Mike DeBord, that team probably goes 7-5 or even 8-4 (and DeBord gets skewered by fans for doing so).
Due to some recruiting misses at safety and on the offensive line (which resulted in some shaky play on the right side for the last few years of the Carr Era), and a perfect storm of Henne, Hart and Long all graduating at once, Vince Lombardi could not have done better than 8-4 in 2008. 3-9, however, was a fail under any coach.
http://genuinelysarcastic.blogspot.com/2010/11/attention-to-detail.html
November 19th, 2019 at 6:44 AM ^
I think Manningham was probably gone regardless, but Arrington might well have been back. Mallett, I'm not sure - there seems to be conflicting information about him.
November 19th, 2019 at 9:32 AM ^
I was kind of friends with Mallett at the time(in reality, I was banging one of his girlfriend's dance team roommates and would chill with him a fair amount). I doubt he would have left if they kept a pro-style system after Lloyd.
November 18th, 2019 at 7:36 PM ^
You know you'll never convince the MgoBlog "go to the spread and win every MNC for the rest of forever" cabal of this. Hell, their leader still finds a way to reference it st least a half dozen times a year in stories.
November 18th, 2019 at 8:08 PM ^
I know, right? The "bare cupboard" is the most overused "group think" statement on the blog.
A ton of legit B1G players were left behind by Carr including Brandon Graham, Steve Schilling, David Molk, Jonas Mouton, Terrence Taylor, Will Johnson, Brandon Minor, Tim Jamison, Donovan Warren, Junior Hemingway, Greg Mathews, Stevie Brown, Morgan Trent, Ryan VanBergen and John Thompson. Most of these guys spent at least some time in the NFL. The list didn't include Justin Boren or Ryan Mallet who were also left behind by Carr.
November 18th, 2019 at 9:50 PM ^
See my earlier remark. "Bare cupboard" is an unreasonable description for what RR was working with, but the '08 team was arguably the least talented (at least by one measure, NFL draft results) of the modern era. This was especially true at the most important position on the field.
November 19th, 2019 at 8:29 AM ^
It wasn't Carr's fault that the QB left.
November 18th, 2019 at 8:39 PM ^
No, but he certainly didn't do much to convince the plates and bowls from walking off during the transition though.
November 18th, 2019 at 6:39 PM ^
Damn, you beat me to it. BTW is anyone watching the replay of the game on FS2? The asshole that edited it must be a Sparty because he edited out TWO of our touchdowns due to "time constraints". What a joke.
November 18th, 2019 at 6:55 PM ^
Lloyd absolutely never had a year like Dantonio did in 2016 (3-9).
November 18th, 2019 at 7:06 PM ^
Nope but 5-7at Michigan is equal to 3-9 at msu due to resources
November 18th, 2019 at 7:13 PM ^
When did Carr go 5-7?
Worst year was 7-5 Alamo bowl loss year.
November 18th, 2019 at 7:13 PM ^
And he never went 5-7, either.
November 18th, 2019 at 8:11 PM ^
Lloyd was a great steward after the Moeller fiasco... though inherited monster personnel built by Moeller...that national championship was with Moellers players... then Lloyd held the fort until Tressel beat him consistently then shut us out of Ohio, which was the most significant development... and Lloyd wanted to retire but Martin made him stay on supposedly, and recruiting fell off a cliff. A former player you all know, who is in sportscasting, told me this exact thing. Lloyd was a good steward but there was no leadership in the transition, whether it be he gets DeBord promoted, or blocks RR from coming. Lloyd came off poorly with Bacon's book, but he was in an impossible spot, promising recruits things to get them to come to Michigan, and stuck to them. Though sitting in the Iowa suite, was quite stupid, all things considered.
November 18th, 2019 at 8:29 PM ^
I thought it was interesting that Lloyd apparently was going to push for Ferentz to come but (according to Three and Out) Mary Sue Coleman vetoed it. We've talked about what would have happened if Les Miles had come, but what about Ferentz?