3-3-5 Early Returns
It has been alluded to that UM will be running at least some 3-3-5 this season. Some have gone so far as to argue that this will be our new base defense: http://www.annarbor.com/sports/um-football/michigan-hoping-3-3-5-defens…
I'm curious, and would like to solicit the opinion of those more informed than me, what this alignment would look like in terms of personnel. I'm particularly concerned with the defensive line - are we still going to be able to get Big Will and Martin on the field at the same time?
Insight is much appreciated.
Considering Roh is typically considered a LB in most publications you can assume Martin, Campbell, and Van Bergen will be the down lineman with Roh standing up or down depending on the situation.
Would it be legal to make an MGoShirt with some variable of Roh, LT, and Derrick Thomas on it? I would buy that.
Some words on it too, incorporating how they're all badasses but nothing too "gay" sounding.
I'm not much of an expert on the 3-3-5, but I will say it's refreshing to read a Dave Birkett article without him mentioning the NCAA investigation.....
I have to trust the coach's judgement on this one. They know what they got and how to play to the strength on what they have. I like the possibility of Mike Martin and Will Cambell being out there at the same time. Teams may have to use four lineman to block those dudes. Go Blue!
but they will use more of it. they actually used it a bunch last year
so did birkett actually get anyone on the record SAYING we're running a 3-3-5? RR seemed to dodge answering any questions about formations. I know we're assuming and speculating but birkett's job is to report. so uh, yeah.
In the 3-3-5, is the "Spinner" one of the DBs?
If not, I worry about both the size of the team on the field and our lack of depth in the ranks of "pure" DB's.
no spinner. Theres 2 DEs, 1 NT, 1 MLB, 2 OLBs. Then its 2 corners, 1 free, 1 bandit, and a spur.
The Bandit and Spur are hybrid players that can roll up into OLBs vs formations.
Dammit formatting.
So THAT'S where the "Spur" comes in...
What D they run, 4-3 under, 3-3-5, 4-2-5, 3-3-5 stack!...... JUST WIN BABY
Wouldn't common sense suggest it would be something like:
3: RVB, Bill Will, Martin
3: Roh, Ezeh, Mouton
5: DBs
??
PROFIT!!!
it will be the base defense. Martin, Campbell, and RVB will be on the line. Roh-Ezeh-Mouton will be your linebackers (Roh will be standing up unless they move to a 4 man front with this package). Williams and Kovacs are your run-stopping (box) safeties known as Bandit and Spur, respectively. JT Floyd and Woolfolk are your corners and Vlad will be your deep safety. I think with this setup we are guaranteed to be big enough to stop Wisky when Roh puts his hand down but versatile enough so that an Iowan TE shall be pwned when he tries to beat us on the seam.
The guys behind the paywall I read (rhymes with "Grout") are pretty much saying it's gonna be a 3-3-5. However, they are also saying you can consider Roh as basically a fourth lineman.
Awww yeah. Roh will be gittin' up in some grilles this year.
Where does Turner fit in that line up?
The gist I get from insider reports, coach comments, player comments, etc. is that Turner is still not ready. He seems to be behind Floyd, and it doesn't seem to be that close.
because he's playing out of position. unfortunately he won't be able to go back to safety until fall
Obes, what are your thoughts on the following:
Athletically, we have about four guys (Woolfolk, Emilien, Turner, Dorsey) who should be on the field in the fall, and a few others who are vying for playing time (Kovacs, Williams, Christian, Floyd). Assuming there are five defensive backs, how do you get the best guys on the field?
that woolfolk is a corner and turner is a safety. with those two spots filled (assuming a healthy vlad emilien) dorsey plays the other corner spot and emilien plays safety. that 5th position will either be williams or kovacs. of course in situations where we're in the 3-3-5 you could have both kovacs and williams in the game. on top of everything i've just written, apparently cam gordon is gonna be a beast at safety.
of course this is just my opinion
On a somewhat unrelated note, apparently now that Emilien went down, they've been getting Hawthorne some reps at deep safety. He's the new James Rogers - they're just going to put him at every single position for depth.
March 23rd, 2010 at 10:46 PM ^
I don't know how old you are--but listen here (as it were) for just a moment to the rant of an old guy.
I am always skeptical of "We don't have no scheme. We just do what we do."
I don't believe you just go out and get athletes and then toss them out there. This situation calls for this, that situation calls for that.
Those were the words of Shafer, and those are the words of Robinson (in, IMO, a nutshell).
I think you have a scheme, a plan, something you teach, teach, teach, and the players know what you are teaching, how and where it applies, and thus, they have a better understanding of what they're supposed to do. Especially at this level where you have limited hours to work with them.
What do you say? I'm leary of this whole Super Secret Hybrid stuff.
Cam Gordon better be a beast. I've got this #4 jersey and he seems to be the guy for the next 4 years.
Somebody bought me a #86 jersey just before Manningham admitted using weed. Now that number belongs to Brandon Moore. That jersey is probably going to remain in my closet for a few more years.
Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't Koger 86? He's no Manningham, but it's not a bad player to rep.
EDIT: I just checked, Koger is totally 86.
Maxwell Smart is reason enough to don the 86 jersey.
Should have been "99 I'm a little rusty on my M jerseys, doesn't Koger wear 86?"
but 99 ain't one.
Mgochaos with 99 would be awesome
March 23rd, 2010 at 10:04 PM ^
Yeah, that's what I intended. Koger isn't bad, but I just don't see the tight ends being big stars anytime soon.
March 24th, 2010 at 12:57 PM ^
It's not so much that Turner isn't ready (although he's not really), but rather Floyd has really improved and is looking good. I've heard that Turner does have a lot to work on, but is still looking promising himself.
wants to ease in his kids that have little to no in-game experience. I think that on obvious passing downs Kovacs is out and Turner is in. I think RR cares more about depth and development right now. If Vlad struggles or is injured and Turner is developing well, he could put Turner at corner and Woolfolk back at deep safety. I think this is more about putting a 19 year old on an island by himself right now.
So far Kovacs is a safety and Turner is a corner, so making that Turner-for-Kovacs switch is kind of a leap...
I meant Turner in as a Nickel type corner on obvious passing downs for Kovacs who is more of a run-stopping box safety.
March 23rd, 2010 at 11:55 PM ^
Is RichRod making decisions about defense stuff, or is it up to GERG?
Since Martin is out this spring, Banks seems to be the one drawing into the lineup at right defensive end. I would guess that he will be replaced by Martin come fall in the 3-3-5 package, but I still think this will look more like a 4-2-5 come September.
We did run some 3-3-5 stack type stuff last year with Roh playing a bit of a hybrid pass rusher/outside linebacker. Sometimes you'd see him poking his nose into the bubble between the NT and the DT.
Let me put it this way: I doubt Rodriguez will make the same mistake of turning another 4-3 guy (cough Shafer cough) into a 3-3-5 stack guy.
it's not the base defense, it's a package that will be used situationally
the actual difference between a real stack 30 and a 40 nickel just aren't that big a deal. do you prefer to be able to shift easily between C2 and C1? then the latter's the way to go anyway.
3 downs 3 outs 5 yard punt
=our ball
The 3-3-5 scares me against 3 years and a cloud of dust teams. We almost need to play a 4 man front there NOT to get bowled over.
if you have a two gap nose tackle like Campbell, then you really haven't lost much by putting another backer in the front instead. running an odd defense doesn't mean much of anything really unless you lack the personnel.
So if we do play a 3-3-5 with Roh being used as a down lineman most of the time, then it would just be closer to what Magnus has written in his blog.
Although it is fun to speculate and read about defensive schemes I think some of us, myself included, are putting too much emphasis on base schemes. Hopefully GERG is a type of coach who can adapt to the different styles of offenses out there.
March 24th, 2010 at 12:55 PM ^
I'm sure that he will play with his hand in the dirt quite a bit, but from what I've read behind the paywall on Rivals is that to get the most out of him with rushing the QB, he will have to be standing up as a linebacker. The whole point of running the 3-3-5, or rather, how it is most effective, is that defenses never know where the blitz is coming from. For that to work, Roh can't be up on the line of scrimmage.
still be fairly 4-2 looking, but with Roh given the freedom to line up wherever, probably often to the TE. we did this against OSU a decent amount. i really doubt they're going to waste his talents covering the flats much, but i think he'll be a good matchup down the seam and rushing the passer. last year we ended up using a lot of a 4-2-5 look that went 4-4-3 as long as there was a TE. we couldn't give any of our LBs two gaps and expect them to cover them. that will likely still be the case.
this year, we may try and use Will as a two-gap head up nose (pretty sure they always had Martin on a shade) to control the A gaps. that leaves the LBs and DEs will take Bs and Cs and Roh and MW/JK the Ds. for most centers, WC's just going to be too much too move. they're all giving up 40 lbs.
Do I have this right, basically?
Scenario 1A: 3-3-5 "base"
Scenario 1B: Roh is told to pass rush and it becomes a 4-2-5
Scenario 1C: The new stevie brown is told to not drop into pass coverage and its a 3-4
Scenario 1D: Roh pass rushes and the new brown doesn't drop into the secondary and its a 4-4
Scenario 2-X: Goal line, run stop, etc etc
or is it more complicated than this?
March 23rd, 2010 at 10:11 PM ^
Notre Dame QB Eats Dirt
March 23rd, 2010 at 11:19 PM ^
So amazing.
March 23rd, 2010 at 11:36 PM ^
I guess I can play too....
^^^thats a safety with the ball btw
March 23rd, 2010 at 11:42 PM ^
In all these pictures, Michigan's the home team. . .Michigan won that game, didn't they?
March 23rd, 2010 at 11:47 PM ^
yeah I believe so, despite that one lowlight though, there were a ton of highlights