fair point that
Excellent analysis and thanks. The fake handoff is critical, just as it is on a play action pass play. Without it the play is an easy read. It is a combination of coaching, the player having a natural "feel" for it, and experience. I think an inexperienced quarterback tends to not do it well, not only because he hasn't done it much, but also generally lacks patience and tends to rush the play.
Thanks again, good stuff.
The photos demonstrate (and anyone watching Illinios with the football saw) how long the QB can actually take before pulling the ball. To a point, the longer the better - the OL can really establish their blocks (they have a numeric advantage, since they typically aren't blocking the end) and getting to the linebackers.
What I hadn't realized before this terrific diary was that the QB can move forward pretty far before handing off or pulling it. That makes it hard for the unblocked DE to simply park and wait for the play - because he won't be in position to tackle the running back.
The longer you wait, the more you can get the DE to commit. It's like running a 2on1 odd man rush in lacrosse, basketball, hockey, etc. You want to make the defender commit before you pass (hand off in this case) or keep.
Forcier's read option have looked worse than my high school acting. I wonder if the running back can help here? I mean, have you noticed the RB selling the play better in other teams than ours?
Also, it would seem to me that another dimension that helps with making the read option successful is QB speed. Forcier's best time from what i can gather is 4.67, compared to 4.32 for Robinson. These other QBs you have listed are in the 4.5 range. Even if you dont "sell it" as best as you should, the speed at the QB position gives the defender very little room for error no?
So i think Forcier is being hindered a bit on both, faking he read and not having the speed to make people pay when they he does "somewhat" sell it. If Robinson would stop hurting the team with TO he would probably be the starter.
I think Forcier has enough speed to hurt a team when there is an opening, but he isn't going to make the play happen solely based on his speed.
Also, I am not sure what the RB can do to sell the fake if he doesn't know whether it will be a fake or not. The RB is also looking at where he is going and it is the QB's responsibility to get the ball into the RB's gut so that the RB does not have to think about that part of it.
I wasn't sure either but wondered if there were technique issues that could be improved upon from both sides (QB and RB/WR/SLOT).
I am by no means an expert, but from everything that I have seen and read this has been the consensus.
I am with ya. After watching the Oregon game last night i came away with the feeling that once we execute like that, watch out.
Beautiful. What makes me feel (relatively) good after yesterday is that THIS is how RR is teaching it. It's going to take time for the kids to catch on, but when they get it, this offense explodes.
Is there any reason for Mouton to bite on the RB with Graham crashing down the line and Kovacs standing next to him, ready to clean up if Graham whiffs?
I almost threw up yesterday watching this play.
I assume that Graham is being told to hit the running back regardless (because this is what he did all day), and Mouton should be scraping to the QB.
Is the EMU play an example of the scrape exchange, or is it just a good play by the LB?
If it was a scrape, then it was a bad play by the LB to almost get caught inside.
spend 90% of Denard's practice time on running the read option. If he could sell a fake like Juice does, this play would be lights out.
Also, we should be bringing Denard in within the first 3 series on these next few games to just gash the crap out of defenses...unless Tate is playing completely perfect, that is. And yes, bring Tate back in if we were to run into obvious passign downs.
I hate to get gimmicky, but whatever it takes to get bowl eligible...
I've watched and rewatched the past few games. The 3rd series is where DRob should have come in. 1st series Tate has been really good, it's probably scripted. 2nd series he begins to look confused and 3rd series is where the trouble starts.
I'm not saying keep him in at that point, but run the 3rd series with DRob. Possibly even scripted. But then again, we're all armchair coaches that haven't a clue what it takes to win D1 football games unless it is on a Playstation.
Notice something about the unforms of every other team above? They're either playing in their dark(er) home jerseys, or their away pants are dark. I wonder if that helps sell the fake.
Of course Illinois' home uniforms aren't really dark.
Interesting post though, because there were several times the camera started to follow the wrong ball carrier, and I was impressed how long Juice waited to pull, and how hard it was to figure out who had the ball.
he is really good at faking the handoff or hiding whether he kept it ohanded it off. The broadcasters, the camera and mself included had a hrad time seeing the handoff, or the fake most of the day. Obviously our defense couldn't see it either. Once our QBs get that down, many options become available.
Note to future: Please Tate and DRob, figure it out soon so DG can redshirt. We don't need another freshman QB next year in a a make or break season.
Also shows how bad the linebacker play is. For the defense, this is assignment football. Who has RB? Who has QB? It also helps if the d-line can get penetration (the first play of the game vs. Ill.). I don't know why we weren't screaming a safety into the box and making Illinois throw the ball to begin the game.
This post looks a lot more like bad defense than good ball fakes. Defending the option (zone read or veer) is simple football if the defenders stick to their assignments. I'd much rather have an unblocked DE take the QB and force and hand off, essentially eliminating options for the QB.
Good work, joeyb. I've been saying all year long that Forcier and Denard suck at running the read option, but this is further proof. It's the staple of Rodriguez's offense but we can't run it correctly yet, which I think has had a huge effect on the success of our offense so far this year.
I have noticed that Sheridan, Threet, Forcier, and Denard have failed to run this play well with consistency. The first two I can understand, since neither is very fast. But Forcier does have decent speed, and Denard has great speed. Perhaps Rodriguez/Rod Smith need to hone their coaching skills a bit or take notes from Ron Zook/Chip Kelly/etc.
I think joeyb had a slightly different point, which was that the biggest problem that Tate and Denard have with the Zone read right now are poor ball skills shown by an inability to sell the fake hand-off (among other things that I am blocking out). Against EMU, if Tate can sell that handoff fake just a little bit better, the OLB is frozen and Huyge (iirc) can block him and Tate gets big(ger) yards. At this point, it isn't about speed. A properly executed (ninja) ball fake lets Steve Threet get 4-5 yards because the defense is frozen. With Denard, it might be a TD because...well...he's crazy fast.
...but I understood his point in the first place.
You know what this analysis tells me? I think it means either Rodriguez gave him a predetermined read, or, that Tate (being a freshman) assumed a scrape exchange, only looking briefly to confirm it. It something that will perfect over time, sometimes people get too excited in making decisions at an instant. He has bigger worries than his mesh on the zone read.
This looks like a great analysis but looks like photobucket hates you..Can't wait to see the pictures to go with the comments.
You are absolutely correct. However, I don't think Juice sold the handoff as well this year as he did last year. I had to appreciate his deftness. It seemed that just before the play was made on the RB, Juice pulled the ball out and took off or pitched it. As much as I didn't like the outcome, last year's QB play by Juice was outstanding.
I can only trust that our QB coaches are working as hard as possible to develop these skills in Tate and Denard. I also agree that hopefully we can redshirt Devin (unless he is just too good not to).