WTKA Roundtable 9/26/2019: Hope Is Stupid Comment Count

Seth September 27th, 2019 at 9:18 AM

Things discussed:

  • Give Wisconsin their due.
  • What the hell does Michigan want to be on offense? They threw out the game plan, lighting all that practicem time on fire, because in four possessions they were already down 21-0.
  • Now they say they want to run, and run the quarterback, but they're not doing that. They still dismiss punting it up to their star receivers, which is the thing that works.
  • Where's the speed in space? One play with Christian Turner?
  • First sign that someone was wrong with Gattis: he had nothing he could do with Ben Mason.
  • Offensive line regressing. Shea majorly regressing. Same problems as last year plus all these new ones.
  • If Shea's never going to find a guy on the other side of the field, is that really there? Golf course or awesome in practice?
  • "Physical" means running the football.
  • Michigan's the most disappointing team in the country.
  • You just saw a team get worse in every aspect in football. Sure there's more real estate left in this season.
  • They panicked, and three games in they're paying for that panic.
  • Sam: We've seen these guys play better, so there's hope. Brian: Let me tell you about the Black Pit of Negative Expectations.
  • Who thought Jordan Glasgow as a defensive tackle? If he was in the A gap maybe you can rationalize that?
  • Michigan's defenders are following fullback traps despite this being something Wisconsin does all the time.
  • Putting guys in uncomfortable positions: vets should be able to handle these things.
  • Hope? 8-4 feels like an okay season right now. Irrationally hoping it's 1998.
  • Caller: an entire generation of quarterbacks has been beaten up. Palpable lack of grit. Have the players lost faith in this program? Response when shots were taken at the quarterbacks was offensive.

[Player after THE JUMP]

You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream on Podbean.

Segment two and three weren't posted I guess.

THE USUAL LINKS

I don't want to talk about what can make this team better because I don't want to have hope.

Comments

SiKa7x

September 27th, 2019 at 9:28 AM ^

Sam is REALLY doing his best to make it sound like this season isnt a dumpster fire in an attempt to keep people interested. Apathy doesnt make the AD money

kurpit

September 27th, 2019 at 12:21 PM ^

Sam said a few things that made me smile because he's so comically predictable in his homerism.

He dropped the "it's only the third game" line. Apparently we should all be ignoring that so far the best we've seen from Michigan is a spotty performance against MTSU but we should believe that this isn't who the team actually is yet.

He really wanted to talk about how good Wisconsin is rather than how bad Michigan is.

He also thinks the team could get a lot better because they're not even doing the fundamentals well. So, in Sam's eyes, being terrible at even the most basic concepts is reason for a positive outlook.

michfan84

September 27th, 2019 at 12:46 PM ^

I love Sam, but there are a few things I disagree with this week:

1. He keeps saying, "these things are fixable."  However, I believe most of our problems are NOT fixable.  Our D-line getting their shit pushed in by Wisconsin or any similar team is inevitable.  We lack size/strength in the middle, and we lack playmakers on the edge.  Shea's vision/ability to anticipate open receivers is likely not going to improve.  He is what he is.  These are two huge problems that are not going to be fixed and will prevent us from winning any significant games this year.

2. He recapped the Wisconsin game a couple times, and each time he mentioned Ronnie Bell's 68 yard reception he said "the defender had the angle on him, this wasn't a piano on the back situation."  Bullshit.  I paused my TV right after the play happened, and Bell had a two yard head start on the defender, who was coming from the middle of the field.  Bell was on the 48 yard line while the defender was on the 50.  He got chased down.  There was no damn angle.  Having an angle is when you're coming from the middle of the field but you at least have a distance advantage.

3. He loves saying "Michigan got off script because they got so far behind."  That's a cop out.  It was just a very poorly called game by Gattis.  Your "script" should be designed to score points.  There is no need to go "off script".  Definitely not in the first half, when there was plenty of time left in the game, even down 21-0.  And second half the game was basically over, so why not run what you feel has the best chance of scoring points?

MGoStrength

September 27th, 2019 at 9:31 AM ^

I have been wondering for a while, how do coaches teach QBs to read coverage?  Is it simply an innate skill or can it be improved?  I remember Mark McGwire talking about training his eyes to recognize pitches using some sort of visual training device and wondered if there is something that exists for QBs.  Because when Shea is not being pressured and has an open guy he is accurate.  But, he doesn't seem to identify who is open very well.  I found this smart phone app called the Quarterback Equalizer and thought it was rudimentary, but interesting.  For coaches out there how to you teach this skill to QBs?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/qbequalizer/quarterback-equalizer-app-20

DoubleB

September 27th, 2019 at 10:36 AM ^

Having vision might be innate, but nobody is born with the ability to throw a ball under duress and see everything.

QBs are taught to read coverage in a variety of different ways. Some determine Middle of Field Closed (MOFC-1 High safety) or Middle of Field Open (2-High safeties) and make their reads off of that. Some systems eliminate half the field pre-snap and then read one guy to go to Player A or Player B on that side of the field (a lot of 3 step stuff uses this). Some read space and ask their guys to go through true progressions--If Player A is covered from a guy to his right then the QB will progress to his right to find the next open man, read, etc. 

This should get drilled ad nauseum along with QB footwork and I imagine Michigan's coaches are doing this in some capacity.

I'm been as critical of Patterson as anyone, but he's getting too much blame for not seeing a guy away from his initial read because the cornerback happened to fall down. You know the guys who can visually see the field like that? NFL Hall of Famers. 

The Patterson issue is that he doesn't pull the trigger to throw the football when he should. He's waiting for a guy to be super open as opposed to slightly open. And with a WR corps that hasn't shown an ability to get super open, it's just a bad fit. It has happened since he's been here and at this point I don't think it's fixable (or worth the investment to fix it). He's a good game manager QB. He's probably not a guy who's going to win you a game where you need to throw it 40 times.

MGoStrength

September 27th, 2019 at 10:52 AM ^

I'm been as critical of Patterson as anyone, but he's getting too much blame for not seeing a guy away from his initial read because the cornerback happened to fall down. You know the guys who can visually see the field like that? NFL Hall of Famers. 

I think Patterson is worse than that.  There are too many examples posted of him failing to look anywhere beyond his primary target, including not being able to identify a guy with his arms in the air on the goal line completely uncovered in his line of vision.  You know who should be able to see that?  Every college football QB.

DoubleB

September 27th, 2019 at 8:26 PM ^

What's he being coached to do here? Do you know? It's the back on a late checkdown. For all we know the back isn't supposed to release and shouldn't be in the route--FWIW, I doubt that. It's 4th and goal with 5 minutes left in the game and he's been beaten up pretty good. Maybe he's been told to always throw it in the end zone in that situation. Context matters here as opposed to just some random screenshot. Patterson is clearly going through his reads with the WRs. He has a ton of time and even scrambles when he doesn't need to and gets a TD the hard way.

But let's assume the worse of Patterson. Let's say he's been told if the LBs split and cover the TE and WR, hit the RB now as he gets into his route. What does that tell you? Either he can't process to get to that point quick enough to realize what's happening or he's not doing what he's coached to do. The first tells you he's limited and an offense needs to work around that limitation. The second tells you he shouldn't be on the field at all.

jabberwock

September 27th, 2019 at 12:16 PM ^

You know what?  I saw what our coaches were made of after Indiana exposed our defense last season.  Adjust? or put your head in the sand and drive to Columbus? The result was a historic ass whipping by OSU who followed that blueprint perfectly.  

How would they respond in the bowl game?

Like shit, thats how.  Uninspired, unmotivated, quitters.  That's when I jumped off the Harbaugh train.

This season has started out almost exactly like last season ended, only this time with less overall talent and the deck chairs freshly shuffled. 

I love Michigan football, but I don't have much optimism for this season.

VintageBlue

September 27th, 2019 at 10:34 AM ^

In 2014, Ohio State welcomed Virginia Tech to Columbus and lost by two TDs.  JT Barrett went 9-29 for 219 yards (half of which came on two passes).  Elliott and Samuels saw a combined 13 carries for 58 yards.  The Buckeyes gave up 7 sacks that day.

In 2015, ...blip in the matrix...file not found

In 2016, Penn State got the bejeebus beat out of them in the Big House.  

In 2017, Ohio State lost by 15 to Oklahoma and then got crushed by friggin Iowa.

In 2018, Ohio State got Purdue'd hard.

That's four out of the last five Big Ten champs who've had at least one absolute disaster of a game during a season.  I'm not saying Michigan is destined to win it this year, I'm just saying they can still contend (and more than just mathematically). A suddenly turnover prone team that's still looking to regain the confidence it had last year while adopting a new system may take a little while to get their legs.  I think they will.

jdemille9

September 27th, 2019 at 11:37 AM ^

Losing by a lot to a team you shouldn't and losing and looking god-awful are very different things. Michigan hasn't looked like a team that knows what they're doing, and that's troubling because we have seen these players play well and do good things.

Yes, they can turn it around I'm not holding out much hope. This feels like a 7/8 win team, at best.

VintageBlue

September 27th, 2019 at 12:35 PM ^

Penn State was 2-6 in their 8 games up to and including the Michigan game in 2016. Ohio State was out of sorts for large sections of the 2018 season before getting it together against Michigan, Northwestern, and Washington.

Hell, the Virginia Tech loss in 2014 was OSU's 3rd in 4 games going back to the end of 2013.  Before that 4 game stretch they damn near lost to Hoke's 2013 team.

No carbon copies of what we've been seeing but not all that different.

readyourguard

September 27th, 2019 at 10:35 AM ^

I listened on the way into the office this morning.

Sam sure knows which side of his bread is buttered.  I found myself wanting to scream at my radio when he kept saying "it's not like we haven't seen what these guys (QB, Line, WRs, defense) can do".

Uhhhh.....we have seen what they guys can do in this offense.  And in 3 of the past 5 games, we've seen what the defense can do.

I review the tape and tweet a bunch of plays out every Sunday.  Brian takes that 10 levels deeper with the UFR, and there's simply no way to sugarcoat this as just "missed opportunities."  If feels like Gattis was in such a hurry to install the entire playbook that he forgot to pound home the basics.  Now the boys seem lost. 

I have faith in some of these seasoned coaches to diagnose and fix some of the problems.  But how do you fix the offense that was installed by a new coordinator with little experience fixing a similar jumbled mess?

Tough times, man.  Tough times.  

 

DoubleB

September 27th, 2019 at 8:30 PM ^

What talent? The QB is a game manager type and has issues. Everyone hypes up the WRs but they don't get open and don't run great routes. They can go up and catch 1-on-1 balls. That's a great skill to have, but it's hard to build an offense around just that. The OL is solid, but not great. Charbonnet is a freshman but looks to be a legitimate talent.

Not saying the offense is bad, but there are issues that are going to show themselves against top 10, top 15 teams.

aiglick

September 27th, 2019 at 10:59 AM ^

Well for everybody complaining the blog staff was being too positive you can forget that. I hope the team buys in and responds. Theoretically there’s a lot of talent there especially on offense. I mean look at the charts for fi fie foe that Seth puts together.

Zeke21

September 27th, 2019 at 11:00 AM ^

Sam does a great job and I appreciate him.

Those of you off the bandwagon, Stay off.

We Don't need You.

M 74'     So Believe me, I know tough times.

GotBlueOnMyMind

September 27th, 2019 at 11:32 AM ^

You know tough times? Class of 2011, meaning my first game was App State. You may know tough times, but you merely adopted the times. My fandom was born in it, molded by it. 

I will be negative about the prospects of this season, while still loving this school, as this is all I have ever known, but for a few brief glimpses of good times.

InterlopingYooper

September 27th, 2019 at 11:06 AM ^

My synopsis of the second segment:

Brian: The emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

Sam: C'mon, it looks like he has a sweater on.

Brian: That's back hair. 

Sam: So it's a birthday suit. This is correctable.

Brian: He can put some real clothes on?

Sam: There's still hope - maybe it will be an unseasonably warm winter.

bronxblue

September 27th, 2019 at 11:10 AM ^

This place has been so refreshing for the week, and I'm not sure I can handle another 40-ish minutes of people who definitely don't want to wallow in pity talking.

I'll listen, but I'm going to be annoyed in a couple of weeks if/when they beat Iowa and all of a sudden the same "we're fucked" becomes "Oh look, the offense works better."

bronxblue

September 27th, 2019 at 11:35 AM ^

His job is to be positive and I don't blame him; it's mostly access journalism for him at 24/7.

At the same time, the nihilist/ironic rueful laughing is equally infuriating.  Yes, the football team isn't winning as we wanted.  These were also the same people who LOUDLY complained about a need to change the offense, then LOUDLY lauded the hiring of a first-time OC and acted like installing a new offensive philosophy is the same as picking a new playbook in Madden.  It's tiring.

There are costs to everything, and this season may be one for Michigan trying to catch up to the elite teams offensively.  I still think they'll improve as the season progresses.

Kermits Blue Key

September 27th, 2019 at 12:19 PM ^

I would agree with you if the new offense even remotely looked like they were attempting #speedinspace. I have no idea what these coaches are trying to do, and it doesn't appear they do either. Why do they refuse to target their monster, NFL-caliber receivers? That right there tells you all you need to know about this situation. It isn't a catching up thing - it's a we don't know what the hell we are doing thing.

bronxblue

September 27th, 2019 at 12:42 PM ^

The counter I'd have is they tried to target their WRs, but they also only ran 25-ish plays until midway through the third quarter.  And as we've seen, the receivers do drop balls.  The idea that these NFL receivers exist is largely a fiction on this site; they have the talent, but they haven't showed it and while some of that is on the QB it's also on the receivers.  And the argument to punt it up is not one you can base your offense around, no matter how much people want it to be.

MGoLow

September 27th, 2019 at 11:30 AM ^

I'm not sure what people expect Sam to say. He's a not so much an objective journalist as he is a fan/journalist hybrid. Everyone knows what he is. He's not going to call the kids/coaches assholes like the 2 fat drunk mid-40's guys who sit in my section at the big house. 

I get that it's cathartic to have someone recognize the dumpster-fire of the season, but don't expect Sam to turn into Mike Valenti. That's not who he is. If you want raving screaming idiocy, there's always 97.1.

bronxblue

September 27th, 2019 at 12:58 PM ^

What has killed Michigan's offense as much as anything are the turnovers.  They've fumbled on every first possession of the season; that's insane.  They looked fine against MTSU and for the first half looked like they had plans against Army.  

Wisconsin was a bad game, but I do think it looks different if they score on that first drive.  Wiscy probably still wins but Michigan ran 12 plays and were down 21 points by that point.  All the complains about "why didn't they run the ball more" drives me insane because on those 12 plays they ran the ball 4 times and threw 8.  It's not "balanced" I guess but it's also not some insane disparity.  

Anyway, I'm tired to relitigating a game from a week ago.  They're a team that has flaws, some inherent and some schematic/execution. I think they can shore up the latter; it's unlikely they'll fix the former.  That probably means they'll lose a couple more games this year but I also have confidence they won't look as bad as they did against Wisconsin against everyone.

kurpit

September 27th, 2019 at 1:27 PM ^

Turnovers have certainly been one issue but that is only a small piece of why the offense has looked bad. The offense doesn't look like it executes plays the way they should, in large part because Patterson doesn't seem to know where to look. It seems like he stares down one route for a couple seconds then tries to scramble and improvise.

I don't expect them to look as bad against everybody as they did against Wisconsin but the issue is that they can look marginally better and that could still result in 7 wins.

Morelmushrooms

September 27th, 2019 at 11:35 AM ^

Again, it has been mentioned here and there, but not often enough-  pre season expectations were unrealistic.  You lose multiple NFL caliber talent players, multiple coaches, install a new offense that hasn't seen real game situations and expect a top 10 team?  I feel these expectations were based on hype, backed by the media and were pointed specifically as a referendum at Harbaugh.  Business is good when drama surrounding Harbaugh is high.  

JFra

September 27th, 2019 at 11:50 AM ^

I mean, I've come to find more and more often that Occam's Razor holds true for this program.

Maybe we're just not that good. No other assumptions needed. The implications of that are farther reaching, but this isn't a team with a wheel off the road, they're upside down in the ditch.

I could argue 7-5 as the ceiling (losses to OSU, PSU, Iowa, ND), but I could see a bad game or two putting this into 'oh shit' territory like 6-6 or worse. There are 4 wins left on the schedule, that's all I can say with confidence.

I'm sure I have recency bias, but I just don't remember a Harbaugh team taking a punch to the face and responding. Those games usually do not go well.