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WTKA Roundtable 2/22/2024: Monarchy is a Terrible System of Government Comment Count

Seth February 22nd, 2024 at 10:27 AM

Things Discussed:

  • NCAA as Romanovs? How to talk to your kids about systems of government.
  • How to fix the NCAA: Gonna need contracts and collective bargaining, but the NCAA should be at the point now where they realize they'll get more negotiating with the players than getting sued by them.
  • Transfers should NOT be open. You're devaluing education, which is still the best thing the schools have to offer.
  • Keon Sabb: hurts, but get that Bama was able to sell him a bill of goods on playing time.
  • Defense: Find a 2nd corner, McBurrows at nickel, gonna miss Sainristil lining everybody up and running their complex coverages, but Rod Moore knows his stuff.
  • Offense: Who's going to be the quarterback? Denegal talk. Seth: You need accuracy with these receivers, because you're taking advantage of the space you get from Tyler Morris or Donovan Edwards—no jump-ballers on the roster.
  • Basketball: Juwan will get another year, has to start building like Purdue not Calipari.

[Hit the JUMP for the player, and video and stuff]

You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.

Segment 2 is here. You can watch the video here:

The Usual Links:

Amorion Walker could jump back to Michigan right now if he wants to. Do it!

Comments

Wolverine In Exile

February 22nd, 2024 at 10:47 AM ^

Seth... sorry man, but there was only one marital alliance between Hapsburg and Romanov lines.. a daughter of a Romanov married a Hapsburg in the early 1700s. Remarkably, those two lines stayed essentially separated throughout the existence of the Romanov dynasty. You need to apologize to Craig.

Joined: 11/08/2008

MGoPoints: 10790

meeashagin

February 22nd, 2024 at 7:36 PM ^

Juwan will be back not because Michigan believes in him (clearly nobody believes in him not even the kids he recruited) but rather he'll be back because Michigan would have to pay him 3 mill not to be.

Michigan clearly doesn't care about winning at BB they've shown that time and time again......they only care about being cheap, cheap, cheap.

 

The only thing I can say is congratulations to Warde, Juwan and all the penny pinching suits upstairs, you will always been known in my house as the people that stopped my family and I from watching Michigan BB games for the 1st time in 40 years. I haven't even checked a box score since early, early in this year.

It's almost the equivalent of a death in my home as we no longer have Michigan BB to fill our weekday nights and now I have to tell my family that you're running it back to save a couple of bucks....are you fucking kidding me?

Joined: 03/25/2018

MGoPoints: 5056

michengin87

February 23rd, 2024 at 4:57 AM ^

I don't see it as that big of a stretch.  I also don't remember the deep devotion post 2020 season.

After COVID, we lost our starting QB and RB (Joe Milton and Charbonnet) as well as top return man (Giles Jackson) as well as a very good DE in Luiji Vilain, all players that have had success post Michigan as well as a few others.  Transfers were just becoming a thing and at that time, Buckeyes were even joking if we'd have enough players to play them in 2021.

Harbaugh's coaching staff was in complete disarray.  He had a coach that didn't even show up.  No one was on the same page.  Everyone was completely frustrated.  I still believe that Harbaugh wanted to make these changes earlier, but Schlissel tied his hands, but that's another story.

Fortunately, Harbaugh made the huge staff changes with virtually every hire being a phenomenal success.  As a result, we have a national championship banner, we developed a ton of 3 and 4 stars into the draft and more than half of the coaches will be in the league next year.

Does Juwan have the connections, the aptitude to completely revamp his staff, and is he getting the backing?  He clearly has the NBA connections.  Hopefully, he has the aptitude to see that this needs an overhaul and to find the assistants that can accomplish what Harbaugh was able to do.  Finally, if Warde does give him an extension then he also needs to provide him with the financial backing to find the best assistants to resurrect this program.

Joined: 07/14/2009

MGoPoints: 4096

CR

February 23rd, 2024 at 12:29 PM ^

Yes, this is thoughtful.

Something has to change in the program and maybe dumping Juwan is the right idea.

Certainly, Juwan needs to do something to instill some life into this corpse of a program, but I don't think Warde will be happy getting rid of an icon or near-icon, especially if he feels some kinship to his coach. I talked to Bill Martin after he fired Tommy and he said his "heart was breaking" and that it was the "hardest thing" he ever had to do as AD. I got it. I talked to TA a lot and I can't say enough good about him. It pained me when he was fired, as much as I had to admit Bill made the right decision.

I have some of the same feelings here, though I don't know JH nearly as well. But I have interacted with him some over the years---including a long conversation in TA's office many years ago---and he is a very warm man, to say the least. 

So, I have some bias. But I wasn't speaking to this. I just feel Warde isn't quite ready to make a change, yet. It feels out of his nature. At the least, it is a lot harder to fire "one of your own," as opposed to Rich Rod or Brady Hoke. In this, I was speaking to what I thought would happen, not what should happen. I know if Ed Cooley had JH's history at UM he would be gone at the end of this year.

Recall that Beilein revamped his staff---bringing in LaVall and Bacari---and before that he had a limited ball screen game. These young coaches changed what UM was doing and it worked. Then JB brought in "defensive coordinators" (Donlon, then Yaklich) and this worked, too. But JB was a much more cutthroat guy than Juwan, IMO.    

If Warde retains JH, the coach is going to have to do "something" to make the program more functional. I know this isn't a plausible roster. It may be as bad a team as I have watched since 1966, though the '66 team (IIRC) was completely dreadful. There is no coach, not Red Auerbach and not John Wooden, who could win many more games with what they have. But what this "something" is, aside from a better roster, I just don't know. Right now it looks like there are at least three scholarship spots open. My guess is he will need to make some sort of a splash there---probably in the portal---and probably jettison an assistant to retain any fan interest.

It is fair to question my judgment. I thought this team would not shoot it but might paper over that by good defensive play and at least breaking even on TOs and ORBs. Well, the only competence the team has shown has been in shooting.

 

 

Joined: 10/23/2009

MGoPoints: 2368

wavintheflag

February 22nd, 2024 at 1:51 PM ^

I think Juwan's history at M / power dynamics will earn him another year to reach a more definitive result. Want to avoid perception of cutting him early and any resentment or other ill feelings that fellow program alums and future players may perceive. Especially with the heart situation and Sanderson blow-up. Going one more year and seeing what happens should avoid that. Like others have said there WILL need to be changes made to staff at least. No idea on recruiting / roster construction sides.

Joined: 03/22/2009

MGoPoints: 281

FranzWagner

February 22nd, 2024 at 10:54 AM ^

We are about to win 2 of our last 23 games in basketball.

How the hell is there any talk of getting another year to fix this?  There's no chance one year fixes this.

Only 15 out of 18 teams make the tournament next year.  The conference tournament.

This is the worst team in program history and now a three year trend of garbage.

And the conclusion is, let's try this again.

Joined: 05/01/2019

MGoPoints: 3929

bronxblue

February 22nd, 2024 at 11:01 AM ^

  • Basketball: Juwan will get another year, has to start building like Purdue not Calipari.

I mean, that may happen but that's just Craig claiming it'll happen, not some great insights. He may be back, and if they want to do that and claim it was the heart issues and demand a massive reworking of the staff so be it - it's not my money.  But "oh Juwan will get another shot because Warde has publicly not shivved him during the season" isn't proof of anything beyond the fact Warde is a normal human being and  isn't going to shit over a prominent alum during the year.

And his actual argument seems to be a bit all over the place - stop trying to build with 5* kids like Calipari (which outside of Houstan and Diabate they really haven't brought in) and instead go after top-100 kids (which they have reasonably well) "like Purdue".  But if you look at actual recruiting classes UM has largely followed that trend recently while Purdue (at least this year) is bringing in a top-10 class.  

Michigan's roster building issues have been due way less to the numbers next to the guys' names and way more with the positional letters next to them.  Had they gotten Shannon or Love in that would have helped but still their backcourt is relatively shallow and they don't have a ton of bigs, and then the guys they did bring in have fallen off a cliff defensively.  You gotta fix the latter before anything else, and maybe the new 2024 class helps a bit plus UM catches a break with the portal.  But while I've been a pretty staunch defender of Howard over the years I'd honestly be surprised if he was retained without some massive concessions on his part.  The far more likely outcome is he isn't fired but figures out some payout situation to step aside "for health reasons" or some such cover.

Joined: 11/22/2008

MGoPoints: 171742

Blinkin

February 22nd, 2024 at 12:13 PM ^

This.  The lack of firing Juwan during the season isn't indicative of anything.  If it gets to be April and he's still in place, then yeah, it'll be pretty apparent that he's back next year.  The coaching carousel won't start for at least another 5 or 6 weeks.  There's not really any point in getting rid of Juwan until after Michigan's season ends.  And it will be generally better if it can be framed as a mutual parting rather than a firing.

Joined: 08/17/2022

MGoPoints: 28225

bronxblue

February 22nd, 2024 at 12:36 PM ^

Yeah, people bring up Holtmann being fired but that situation is somehow worse than UM under him and they never got even into the S16.  Then moving on, I guess, frees them up earlier to find a coach but I sort of doubt it'll substantively change the guy they get.  It just felt more like a new AD wanting to flex his muscles early.  

Joined: 11/22/2008

MGoPoints: 171742

Blinkin

February 22nd, 2024 at 1:27 PM ^

The reality is that the coaches you WANT to hire are all still coaching.  You can put out feelers towards different coaches' agents before you actually terminate your current coach.  And it's always worse optics to do an in-season firing, ESPECIALLY in a case like Juwan's where the coach is also an alum. 

Joined: 08/17/2022

MGoPoints: 28225

Pepe_Silvia

February 22nd, 2024 at 11:03 AM ^

Genuinely can't wrap my head around the upside of one more year for Juwan. 2 years in a row missing the NCAA tournament, alienating players and staff, and the roster shows no signs of improvement. 

It's not like he's a proven winner who hit a rough patch. He's a first time head coach who has regressed every single year. A bubble team might warrant another year but they're in dead last in the worst Big Ten conference I can remember in a while. 

Joined: 01/16/2016

MGoPoints: 81

AC1997

February 22nd, 2024 at 11:26 AM ^

Unable to listen right now - why on earth do we think Juwan is getting another year??  He's lost the team, the program is in disarray, he's done nothing to adapt or evolve, he hasn't shown he can build a complete roster, and we're going to ask him to bring in 5+ transfers to build the team next year when he continues to fall on his face when identifying those transfers and just watched the best one (Olli) ruin his potential playing for this dumpster fire of a team?

 

I love Juwan and really wanted it to work.  I just don't see how you can bring him back after the last two seasons.  Admittedly there isn't much out there that excites me as a replacement coach - but I don't think there's any coming back from this even if he actually wakes up and revamps his entire staff and approach.

Joined: 09/19/2008

MGoPoints: 13809

willirwin1778

February 22nd, 2024 at 11:39 AM ^

I think Craig was spot on regarding "building like Purdue and not Calipari" 

In just a few short years, the Calipari model, once plausible/practical/sound, seems to be completely unworkable in the latest iteration of the modern era of college basketball.  

What are Creighton, Dayton, San Diego State, Saint Marys, Washington State, and Colorado State doing?  Even BYU is in the top 25.  I have never seen a top 25 like this before.  

Joined: 03/09/2013

MGoPoints: 5034

willirwin1778

February 22nd, 2024 at 12:53 PM ^

San Diego St.?  I suppose he was trying to use Purdue and Wisconsin as conference examples.  But the model of getting players who can give you a couple of years and development seems to be gaining traction throughout college basketball.  

I hate to say it, but college basketball is quickly becoming something akin to AA baseball.  Correct me if I am wrong.  

Unless they are obviously still growing physically, like Franz was.  Here is how I see it as AA:  You get a future AAA=NBDL/NBA player for one year, whether or not they actually produced on the court.  That is their path and journey.  

To win AA basketball, you very likely need a really good AA team, but not the team everybody stole players from.  The good news is, some of those great AA players for 3 and 4 years of college will still make the league, so not all is lost, it is just a different path. 

The only other way is to somehow replicate the fab five, one year, all the money, all 5 star freshmen, for all the marbles.  But then, after that, you just have a huge void and it probably isn't a sustainable model anyways, but maybe you won something.     

Joined: 03/09/2013

MGoPoints: 5034

ST3

February 22nd, 2024 at 1:41 PM ^

If Juwan stays, someone has to go, and my guess is that Martelli will be the one. If we excuse this season as Juwan’s heart surgery year, the responsibility for this mess lands on Martelli. He was brought in to smooth the transition for Juwan. How has that worked out? Roster management is atrocious. Shouldn’t the guy with 3+ decades coaching at the college level be better at advising Juwan on this? We’re acting like a mid-level A-10 team (St. Joe’s) and not a top half of the conference B10 team. 
Granted, the team has gotten worse as Juwan has regained the top spot, but if he doesn’t get the ax, someone will. (Unless Warde really doesn’t GAF, which is possible.)

Joined: 09/11/2010

MGoPoints: 52524

MH20

February 22nd, 2024 at 1:43 PM ^

When they announced that the PSU game would be played at the Palestra, it seemed pretty apparent to me that regardless of who the head coach is, Martelli would be retiring after the season.

I am also of the opinion that I don't know what he even brings to the program these days. In the grim scenario where Juwan is retained, I think every assistant needs to be broomed. Eisley has good offense, but he literally does not recruit. Saddi seems like a great guy, but I don't think he is irreplaceable by any means. That many MMs (including his alma mater, WMU) have passed him over for head jobs seems a little telling. And then there is of course Phil, who is very likely to retire, but if for some reason he doesn't, you have got to send packing.

Joined: 10/30/2008

MGoPoints: 40584

crg

February 22nd, 2024 at 1:57 PM ^

Transfers should NOT be open. You're devaluing education, which is still the best thing the schools have to offer.

I'm fairly certain that turning college sports into a paid profession devalues the educational aspect of the school already.

Joined: 04/30/2015

MGoPoints: 75054

not TOM BRADY

February 22nd, 2024 at 3:11 PM ^

How is one more year going to fix anything with this basketball program. His roster management has been atrocious. I don’t want to hear anything about the transfer stuff. It’s his job to target guys who will be admitted. Until that changes figure it out. You have no guards, no bigs and awful wing players. This freshman class isn’t fixing the defense. Juwan couldn’t even keep his son around. You think after missing the tourney you would try to get your son to come back. 

Joined: 06/02/2012

MGoPoints: 30458