... I think is what people need to take away from this. People are human, warts and all.
Three And Out Takes: Carr, Rodriguez, Martin
I'm impressed with the large numbers of people who seem to have already blazed their way through Three and Out. It took me a while. I stopped for a few days after "Honeymoon from Hell" because it was too depressing; every chapter featuring a game I knew they'd lose spectacularly required a little bit of willpower to start.
But I'm done and a large number of you are done. It is time to talk the turkey.
We've got this document. What does it say about major players in the saga? I was planning one part here but this got long, so today we'll cover Carr, Rodriguez, and Bill Martin, with various players with less prominent roles in the story covered in a post tomorrow.
It says a few things about Lloyd Carr that are not nice, and implies more. Bacon's said he left a lot of things out that he could not get multiple sources on, which is both his responsibility as an actual journalist and horribly frustrating.
The main strikes:
- Informing his former players he would sign any transfer papers they wanted at his meeting with them after their bowl game, a marked contrast from the Bo-Bump transition.
- Telling Mallett he "needed to leave".
- Having zero control over his former players, or—worse—tacitly endorsing their behavior by not jumping down their throats.
- Offering something short of the fiery defense Bo would have launched once the program started taking fire.
That's aside from the state of the roster when Rodriguez took over, which wasn't specifically directed at the new man.
Those seem like major strikes. Screw it: those are major strikes, particularly #3. I find it inconceivable that Eric Mayes would made it thirty seconds into the embarrassing "we own this program" speech before Bo burst from his chest like a Xenomorph. Carr does nothing. Multiple former players trash Rodriguez in public. Carr does nothing. The 2009 golf outing that even guys like Chris Balas* come back from disgusted at, naming specific names of players (Marlin Jackson, Dhani Jones) who embarrassed themselves with their behavior. Is Carr even at it? It's worse if he is.
So, like, whatever. Carr doesn't owe anyone anything except the 400k a year he was pulling down as associate AD. But he's no program patriarch. He's just a guy who used to coach here. His loyalty is to an incredibly specific version of Michigan only. The difference between the Bo guys and the Carr guys is obvious. Bo guys organize a weird counterproductive rally for RR; Carr guys go on MNF and state they're from "Lloyd Carr's Michigan" or storm the AD's office to demand RR's firing after every loss**. There are exceptions, obviously. The trend is clear.
I have no sympathy for arguments the guy is being painted unfairly when he was offered the opportunity to tell his side a dozen times. If history is written by the losers here it's because the winners don't care what the public thinks. They can't be surprised when the public thinks they're not Bo.
Carr did a lot of things for the program but his legacy is significantly tarnished by the pit it found itself in immediately after his departure. It was his lack of a coaching tree, lack of serious coordinators, and lack of tolerance for Les Miles that caused Michigan to hire Rodriguez in the first place. It was his lack of a roster—seven scholarship OL!—and lack of support that provided Rodriguez with two strikes before he even coached a game. We can argue about how much is Carr's fault and how much is Rodriguez's, but figuring out the latter is pointless since RR is gone and everyone hates him. The former is "far too much."
*[By this I mean guys who work for publications for whom access is lifeblood. They're naturally more circumspect. The reaction on premium sites to this golf outing was unprecedented, with people moved to call actual former players out by name after years of dark mutterings.]
**[Not in the book; something I got from a good source.]
If you left a goat in the locker room after a Michigan loss and then locked Rodriguez in it for five minutes, you would return to find the walls smeared with blood and feta. There would be no trace of the goat.
Rich Rodriguez was obviously not a stoic guy. His sideline tantrums proved that. The extent of his leg-gashing, table-throwing, goat-cheese-making post-loss hissies is probably the thing that Rodriguez is pissed about. They don't make him look like a stable dude. Neither does his descent into J. Edgar Hoover-esque paranoia, no matter how intent the university was on making that paranoia seems reasonable.
By the time I got through it, my reaction to Rodriguez's portrayal was different than that of the media reviewing the book. It doesn't paint Rodriguez as a guy I would want in charge of my football program. I can deal with one goat-annihilating postgame tantrum a year. Rodriguez seemed to have one after every loss.
So why do most neutral accounts play up the Rodriguez sympathy angle? They do not take the truth that the local media is dominated by agenda-laden twits to be self-evident. When Mike Rosenberg—who comes off as a real winner—bombed Rodriguez with a bunch of half-truths and misrepresentations I bombed back, stating that it was obvious the buyout kerfuffle was university-directed. Surprise: it was university-directed as they tried to get out of their 2.5 million dollar hook. Similarly, Free Press Jihad is re-exposed as a bunch of half-truths at best run by a couple of guys who "had countable hours in there at some point" but had it edited out, no doubt because that's not at all important in a discussion about whether Michigan was more than doubling their allotted time on Sundays.
If you go into the book knowing Rosenberg and Snyder published an embarrassing hack-job and that a large part of the media firestorm surrounding Rodriguez was a combination of University incompetence and the tiny lizard brains of certain folk in the local media*, the main takeaway from the book in re: RR is the sheer height of the plumes his emotional volcano shoots up. I mean, Bacon spends pages and pages on Rodriguez playing up the traditions of Michigan to his players. That's an obvious reaction to the Michigan Man business. I assumed Rodriguez was not an idiot when it came to firing up his troops, I guess, and that stuff shot by me. Beating a bleating ungulate against the wall of the Notre Dame locker room until it bursts into a kaleidoscope of viscera… that stays with you.
I feel bad for the guy. I'm glad he's gone.
*[The rest a combo of Rodriguez never winning any games and his remarkable ability to stick his leg into the press conference bear trap.]
Good Lord, man. I find it hard to believe that a guy who dragged Michigan kicking and screaming into massive financial success and smoothly hired John Beilein (admittedly after making a questionable hire in Tommy Amaker) was really as incompetent as… uh… I believed he was after the sailboat incident. That's Yogi Berra right there but it's also true.
Here's the the story of the post-Carr coaching search from the perspective of this site:
- Kirk Ferentz is reached out to and either is or is not offered; if offered he may have been given an offer that was a paycut. Ferentz fades but it seems like there was truth to the rumors.
- Flailing. Miles heavily discussed. ESPN reports Michigan contacts him after Ferentz falls through. They agree to wait until the SEC championship game is over. LSU boards buzz that Les has told his team he's out. I would be "surprised if it was not" Miles.
- Infamous ESPN report.
- Sailboat. "Have a great day." Sailboat.
- Conclusion reached in the aftermath is that M "essentially passed on Miles."
- Tedford and Schiano now start getting thrown around along with odder names like Grobe and Pinkel. Also some guy named Hoke. So much Hoke.
- Kirk Ferentz momentarily back. Then gone.
- Schiano talked to, offered, accepts, changes mind, offered again, says no.
- Sean Payton!
- Miles again! Seriously!
- Miles out again.
- Jim Grobe. Jim Grobe does not get an exclamation point.
- KC Keeler! Lane Kiffin! Seriously!
- Rodriguez out of nowhere.
- Sigh… Peanut Butter Jelly Time.
It seemed like a clown show, and behind the scenes… clown show. Martin wants Dungy, has no idea if Dungy—who is a broadcaster and can be contacted by anyone at any time for any reason—will take the job. Wants Ferentz, has no idea that the president of the university will stab him if he hires Ferentz. Wants Miles, has no idea that Lloyd Carr will stab him if he hires Miles. Somehow misses on Schiano, then has Rodriguez fall into his lap and grabs him before anyone can think about it, which sets up the whole buyout fiasco the media will spin for six months. The sailboat incident is even worse since Bacon asserts one of the main problems was Martin had a new cell phone and didn't know how to use it.
Martin himself drops out of the story shortly thereafter, which is another indictment of the guy because what enters is a vast institutional incompetence that starts the Rodriguez media cockroach katamari rolling. Everything from the buyout to the Dorsey situation is mishandled not only by Rodriguez (sometimes not even by Rodriguez, as with the buyout) but by the people who should be telling him what is and is not possible. When Rodriguez went to bat for Dorsey with a guy in admissions the guy in admissions should have looked at the guy's transcript before saying yes, and then when he did look at the transcript he should have said no.
Instead we actually sign the guy—opening us up to the most cynical and loathsome of all the lizard-brain media attacks—only to find out he is nowhere near eligible. And don't get me started on the CARA forms, which was a special brand of idiocy all on its own. Martin did a lot of big picture stuff very well, but he was totally unprepared to fix a department that had started downhill long before he arrived.
For all the crap I give Brandon about his failure on big picture stuff, he cleaned out the deadwood with alacrity.
TOMORROW: Players, reporters, me/us(!?).
Won a national championship in his third year when the majority of the guys were brought in by GM.
He tailed off dramatically in the games that matter (OSU, Bowl) going 3-11 in those games. Sidenote: LC also benefited from MSU's incompetence. From 2002 to 2007, with Michigan winning all six season, MSU went 33-40 and had four losing seasons. Now, during the RR and Hoke era, MSU has went 32-14 in 3 1/2 seasons. They've already topped their best record from Lloyd era twice and probably will again this season. So imagine the hit LC would have taken had he had to face a competent coaching staff on the MSU sideline under Dantonio.
He also failed to do anything to help Michigan transition after he stepped down. A real "Michigan Man" would have stepped up and done anything he could for the program, the fans and the team, including players he recruited. Instead, he - one of the main people who could have made a difference in keeping shit from rock bottom - just sat back and watched his "beloved program" crumble.
Anything such as charity work is such a crock in the discussions of all football coaches. They all do good work. If you have the resources and influence you SHOULD be doing charity work. Since my freshman year in college I've donated both time and money, even when I didn't really have it. Let's put it this way: Say I work at a soup kitchen this morning, then come on here and berate someone, acting like a total dick. Just because I do a nice thing in the morning, doesn't mean I get a pass for being an ass on here.
All in all, he is a good guy who has done a lot of good things, a solid coach and someone who has some serious bitter old man issues.
Rodriguez....he had some serious problems with handling adversity. I come away from all this not knowing if he was the right or wrong guy for the Michigan job (what if he had stepped in with the 2006 team?) but he definitely came in at the wrong time. He was on the backfoot from the beginning, but plenty of times coaches have stepped into poor situations and dragged themselves out in better fashion than he did in his three years at Michigan. As was noted, whenever Michigan needed to win a game, he failed and except for a few exceptions, it was usually miserable. You have to wonder though, had UM lucked out against MSU and Iowa in 2009 how things might have turned out...
Bill Martin - LOL.
1. "Won a national championship in his third year when the majority of the guys were brought in by GM. "
You realize that LC was on Mo's staff and was responsible for recruiting many of the stars of that team?
2. "He tailed off dramatically in the games that matter (OSU, Bowl) going 3-11 in those games."
Do you know Bo's bowl record?
3. "From 2002 to 2007, with Michigan winning all six season, MSU went 33-40 and had four losing seasons. Now, during the RR and Hoke era, MSU has went 32-14 in 3 1/2 seasons. They've already topped their best record from Lloyd era twice and probably will again this season. So imagine the hit LC would have taken had he had to face a competent coaching staff on the MSU sideline under Dantonio."
Cause and effect. MSU sucked under Lloyd because Lloyd OWNED instate recruiting. By taking ALL of the instate talent, MSU - which, contrary to its belief, cannot recruit nationally - was forced to take our leftovers. RR allowed MSU to get elite talent that should have come to us, which allowed MSU to get good. this whole point is a compliment to LC.
4. "Rodriguez....he had some serious problems with handling adversity. I come away from all this not knowing if he was the right or wrong guy for the Michigan job "
Well, even RR said that it was a poor fit, and even Brian has said that he is happy RR is gone.
I'll give you half of point 1. But if you're saying this, then maybe RR should have been forgiven for a poor first couple of years due to the drastic change his arrival would produce, rather than just a continuation of the previous regime that would occur upon Lloyd taking over?
Bo didn't get embarassed like we did many times in those bowl games under Lloyd.
In fact, given that he lost exactly one bowl game by more than a score no matter who he played, it would seem he was fairly unlucky when it came to the postseason.
Tennessee, USC, losing to a bad Nebraska team, getting handled in 2001 and 2004 by poor OSU teams...
As for the MSU deal....no. Just no. You're acting as if when a coach takes over the roster starts at zero. If what you are saying is true, then Michigan should have had more than enough talent to beat MSU in RR year 1 and 2. In fact, we wouldn't have been able to see the effects till Year 3 or 4, but those years didn't seem any different than the first two. Of course, if Hoke had won this year, you'd be saying "See, look at how Michigan took charge of recruiting in Michigan and it immediately paid off"....so maybe there is no point in arguing this with you.
Finally, RR was a poor fit in 2008.
However, as I'm saying, we don't know what would have happened had he taken over a Michigan squad that wasn't starting over from square one on offense. Maybe the same thing. Maybe he wins 9-10 games and everything is fine. As it happened, he was a poor fit.
"If what you are saying is true, then Michigan should have had more than enough talent to beat MSU in RR year 1 and 2"
That would be true, if a large number of players didn't leave when RR came to town. In 2008 and 2009 - the years that you reference - MSU was not good. They only won 6 games in 2009, and lost to every ranked team that they played. The fact that they beat us doesn't mean that they were good, it means that we were that bad.
The effect of RR's poor instate recruiting showed up in 2010 and 2011, years during which MSU has outperformed their recent history.
How you state that MSU was not good in 2008 or 2009, then add they won only 6 games in 2009, conveniently leaving out they won 9 in 2008, as if by omitting the fact that proves you wrong somehow makes you right.
...because if we know anything, the key to winning 11 games in the Big 10 and then beating the #5 team in the nation in back to back years is recruiting the state of Michigan well. This is just ridiculous.
Please continue because that is some weak Shit you're offering up. Lloyd cared more about himself than Michigan.
Lloyd Carr has done more for the university than anyone posting here. Shit, more than everyone posting here combined
I would be worried if that wasn't the case. He was the Head Football coach.
For what its worth, in case you care, I think you're right on the money here.
Did we just make up? I feel butterflies again.
I always respected you as a poster in general. I wasn't a fan of the bashing, but I admitted my shortcomings and learned a thing or two from the negative feedback. That's what its all about, right?
it's hard to deny carr was wrong during the transition. this certainly doesn't erase all the good he's done for UM.
An even more impressive list of accomplishments could be assembled for Jim Tressel. Do you also consider him to be fully above criticism?
- completely silent every time the coaching staff and / or program was attacked in the media under RichRod
While those are all respectable truths it doesn't make Lloyd any less human/fallible.
I assume that this will not be a popular opinion, but I am going to go ahead and offer my defense of Lloyd. I look forward to debating it in the responsive comments:
1. Transfer papers - Lloyd recruited kids to come and play for a team, a coach and a system. With his retirement, 2 of those 3 variables were going to change. Sure, those who stay and the whole like, but if a TE committed to play for Carr in a system that used TEs, doesn't Carr owe it to the kid to say, "look, I realize that you committed to play here, but things changed, and if you no longer want to be here I will let you leave." I really see no problem in this. If Lloys had said "look kids, this RR guy is bad news, get the hell out," I would be more upset.
2. Not defending RR - during RR's 3-year tenure, the volume of former players that came out against RR was staggering. And, as we now can read from Bacon's account, there were issues with RR. Even Brian ended his section of this post with: " I feel bad for the guy,. I'm glad he's gone." Perhaps Lloys and some of his former players just realized the problems early on and just feld that he was not good for the university in the long term. Even if supporting RR would have won us more games, perhaps these guys realized that in the long term, having a Brian Kelly-like wacko in the locker room was not what Michigan should be about.
A question to those who disagree with my viewpoint: Let's assume that Lloyd and his former players genuinely do not think that RR is good for Michigan. They believe that long term, he will take us down a negative path. Disagree with the assertion, but it is their opinion. What would you want them to do? Come on TV and lie - say "I support RR and think that he is the perfect man for the job?" Personally, one of the things that I most admire about Lloyd is his honesty, so I wouldn't want him to come on TV and say something that he doesn't believe in. So, having nothing good to say, perhaps he did the honorably thing and, instead of voicing his true opinion, remained silent.
3. Blaming LC for his former players' comments:
How can you blame Lloyd for what these guys say? It is frowned upon on these boards to blame Pacman Jones' bad choices post -WVU on RR, so why blame LC for his players' comments? Seems like a double standard. Also, another example to make my point that LC shouldn't be blamed: Manningham (or was it Braylon?) says on MNF that he is from "Lloys Carr's Michigan Wolverines." Do we think that LC put him up to it? If not, what was Lloyd to do? Could he have called Mario up and said "hey, don't go doing that, it's not good for Michigan." Sure, but how do you know that he didn't? After all, Mario only said this one single time - how do we know that Lloyd DIDN'T tell him not to do it again? In fact, each player that spoke out against RR only made a single comment - how do we know that LC didn't tell those who he maintained a relationship with to cut out the public comments? What should Lloyd have done, sent a group email to all former players warning them about how to act? Not realistic, and unfair to blame Lloyd for the opinion -apparently widely shared - of so many adult men.
Sorry, I just don't blame Lloyd for these things.
The only part of the RR era that I would actually pin on Lloyd was leaving a somewhat empty cupboard. Of course, if RR had done a better job of retaining players and transitioning (sort of how Hoke kept Denard by running a hybrid offense), perhaps the bare cupboard would not have yielded such terrible results. But, I am still willing to pin some of that blame on LC.
I agree with alot of that (not all), actually, but you'll be hard-pressed to sell that opinion to 90% of the people on here.
I don't expect the majority of this board to agree.
There are many on this board that would rather defend a guy who broke every record for futility at Michigan, who was a total nutcase on the sidelines and apparently in the locker room, who threw his kicker under the bus in a press conference, who threw his entire defense under the bus in a press conference, who drove out so many players during his tenure - some who he personally recruited - that we were starting walk-ons and freshman at a greater rate than ever before, who got us our first NCAA violations ever (whether minor or not, it happened on his watch) and who basically turned our program from a national power to a laughing stock, than to face the truth. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
.... really? Sure doesn't sound like it given your highly one-sided list of issues.
Back to what I just posted earlier... I don't know why people have to pick sides. Mistakes were made. This is what people do.
I said that everyone is entited to their opinion, and then gave mine. I don't see the inconsistency. I didn't say that everyone else is not entitled to disagree.
I said that everyone is entited to their opinion, and then gave mine. I don't see the inconsistency. I didn't say that everyone else is not entitled to disagree.
Good lord it's not about defending Rodriguez it's about getting a complete picture of the epic failure that has been the Michigan football program recently. If you can't see that the disfunciton extended WAY beyond the coaching staff I'm not sure what you are looking at. The whole Michigan football family turned itself into a laughing stock and that is the saddest part of this whole business don't pretend it was one man.
because we had no leadership...
Martin - clueless
Lloyd - vindictive and bitter towards the end
turned our program from a national power to a laughing stock
I would argue that the Horror and then being housed by Oregon didn't help matters.
One win in seven tries against Tressel doesn't feel like national power material (Mack Brown and Pete Carroll beat Tressel twice in limited chances, Danny Hope and Ron Zook both beat him once). Not winning a major bowl game since the 1999 season isn't the mark of a national power. Being out of the national title race in September every year for a decade (save 2006) is not the mark of a national power.
Rodriguez didn't piss in the punch bowl at Studio 54. He's just the poor bastard who showed up right when the party had staggered to a halt.
When Drew Sharp tried to fire up BH's introductory presser, asking if "Michigan was still considered elite," Sharp could have followed up the BH "TIM, FGS" answer with your first paragraph...but didn't, because Sharp's a donut-chomping tool.
That paragraph sums up why a wholesale change was desired, and made, eventually...
I'd posbang you +100 if I could!
The people to whom you are directing this comment don't recall anything other than the 1997 half-MNC and the 2007 Capital One Bowl where we beat an overrated Florida team. Nothing negative-- like the Oregon loss (the worst I've ever witnessed at Michigan stadium, easily), or telling Mallett he needed to go, recruiting that punk in the first place, recruiting poorly, etc. -- can be used against Carr.
To these people, we were 2004 USC before Rod showed up and drove off 30 5 star players, caused Michigan's "worst" loss ever to Toledo and then (with Carr loyalist Draper's and Labadie's "help") single-handedly caused Michigan to be sanctioned.
I'm beginning to realize there is no point in arguing this any longer. Some people can't handle the truth and would prefer to keep their head in the sand.
Let's recognize the disgrace, which was absolutely unnecessary, that Carr, Brandon et al caused Michigan and do the things that have to be done to make sure the school we love is taken out of their hands and entrusted to those who have its best interests' in mind first and foremost, as opposed to their own.
1. "Interesting how it was CARR's former players who did almost all of the talking, not Bo's players. That's ... not a coincidence."
No, it is not. It is, however, because Carr's former players are in their 20s, several of whom have a public forum by virtue of being in or around professional football. By contrast, Bo's former players are, at their earliest, in their 40s (so perhaps a bit more mature), and almost exclusively no longer playing or commenting on football.
Also, many of Bo's former players, including several whom I have spoken to at various alumni events, have open admitted to being ecstatic that RR was fired. So, maybe LC's players were a bit younger and therefore less mature, but their view was pretty universally shared by Bo's players.
2. "Carr is the one who gave RR a recruiting phone call and then, almost immediately after the hiring, started showing signs of no confidence."
I think that the answer to this question is that, yes, LC reached out to RR to satisfy his primary goal of preventing the program from falling into the hands of a scum like Miles. And thankfully he did. Sure, we lost the last few years (and we would have won with Les), but at least RR is not not a scum. Say what you will - a bad coach, a bad manager, a whacko, a nsake oil salesman (not endorsing any of these comments, by the way) - but he is not a scum like Miles. So, if LC reached out to RR, sight unseen, to avoid Miles, then we all owe him a thanks.
As to supporting RR, perhaps RR didn't endear himself to RR by firing EVERY SINGLE ONE of the current assistants - people who could have helped ease the transition - when he came in. It's not as if he filled every one of those positions with his old staff, some were new hires to him. Why not keep some of them on to ease the transition. And, as you mention, perhaps RR did do things during the first few weeks to give LC pause. Sure, Bacon had a ton of access, but you don't think that there may have been conversations between LC and RR to which he was not privy?
3. "It's a highly political chain of events, people can see it, and that's why so many people don't trust Lloyd."
If you go to the general M fanbase, I think that the OVERWHELMING majority trust Lloyd and not RR.
You really think your little corner of the world is all that and a bag of chips. Many posters here have insight, but they're not the only who know something about being a knowledgeable fan.
But you keep hanging on to your little elitist heart.
...there have been a number of similar comments, supporting Carr.
My question to Carr and his players is this -- While you might have different views about Rodriguez as a coach, and perhaps not all positive, why would you all have remained silent when Rodriguez and the program -- your old football program -- were being attacked as per the Free Press and Rosenberg?
Explain that to me; why wasn't it a competely unifying, galvanizing event? A chance to rally behind Rodriguez and Michigan? Why was something like MGoBlog the one voice in the wilderness? A lot of people knew what bullshit it was. Half the Athletic Deaprtment knew what bullshit it was. Jim Brandstatter, Frank Beckmann, Brian Cook, Jon Chait, Bill Martin, David Brandon.. all at one time or another came around to the viewpoint that Michael Rosenberg was a menace, creating his own story.
So why weren't Lloyd Carr and his former players doing the same? It hardly requires anybody to choose whether or not to support "Michigan." Supporting Michigan, no matter who the coach was, virtually demanded confronting Rosenberg.
I know we were all happy to get rid of English at the time but looking back, what would have happened if Rodriguez only brought his offensive staff and kept all the Carr defensive staff. Interesting to think about.
Couldn't happen. English thought he deserved the HC job. Keeping those guys around would have been poison.
You tell me if this is "scum:"
You call a potential job candidate and tell him that you fully endorse him and think he will do great things for the program. Then, after he is hired, you backstab him.
Yeah, Miles is "scummy" and Lloyd is awesome.
This might not be popular either but...
Isn't the whole "Michigan Man" meme in the vain of the school is bigger than you? So, taking that further to Carr, AFTER the decsion to hire RR, he should step up and whether he personally agrees or not, COMPLETELY support RR. Completely, no questions, no qulaifiactions...this is the very definition of being part of something larger than you. Michigan made a decison and as a paid employee of this institution, you line up and be counted.
You handle internal disagreements internally, not publicly and not with a booming silence when asked for input. Then to ACTIVELY engage in activities that implicitly undermine the new coach, well...there you go.
Change the names...Bo tells his players it's ok to leave Mo's team...What? "Those Who Stay..."
I do think that LC should have done more to aid in the transition. I actually agree with you on that.
But, I like my coaches and former coaches to have integrity. If he doesn't believe something, I don't want him on TV saying it. If LLoyd didn't believe that RR was the guy, I respect him for not lying on TV. I also respect him for NOT publicly trashing RR. By remaining silent, he retained his integrity while at the same time doing no harm.
lloyd was being paid handsomely to remain on board as a figurehead and help keep the program stablized. if he was so incensed at the hiring of RR (who it seems he even recommended), he should have resigned. UM could have used those $$ to bring in casteel. /s.
RR deserved a chance at success and not be undermined by lloyd and his former players.
hell, at the time i was outspoken against the hiring of amaker (lack of experience, success, etc). but once he was hired, i was one of his biggest supporters, saying that he deserved 4 years. why? because that's the right thing to do.
1. There is a difference between telling kids they have choices and actively stating "I'll sign your transfer papers" before the new coach even arrived on campus. RR said he would let any kid transfer (and he followed through on that) provided they met with him first. That seems reasonable to me, and Carr trying to circumvent that by telling kids they could leave beforehand is poor behavior, at best, from the departing HC. And considering what he told Mallett before his transfer, you see a trail of departures at least implicitly supported by Carr.
2. Not defending RR - the funny thing is, most of the former players speaking out against RR were either (a) kids who were kicked off/left the program on bad terms (and trust me, former players disliked Carr too) or (b) never played for RR but just didn't like the way he ran the program (i.e. hated to see UM lose). Sure, that isn't officially on Carr to step in and tell those guys to keep their complaints in-house, but at the same time I find it hard to buy his "nobody is bigger than the team" bravado when he never really marshalled the media bitching by his former player. And as for supporting RR, the outgoing coach who is now an associate AD needs to swallow his pride a bit and at least publicly support the head coach; that's the deal with being part of the athletic department. If he doesn't want that responsibility, then stop cashing a check from UM and become a private citizen again.
3. Nobody really cared that much about Braylon saying those things about Lloyd Carr's UM because, well, Braylon is kind of a tool (at least to me) who has a fine sense of self, and anyway, those little intros aren't the biggest deal. But when you have guys who never played for RR (Mayes, Hart, Edwards, Toomer, etc.) coming out and knocking him in the media despite what appeared to be honest attempts by RR to reach out to them, that is distressing. And yeah, Carr doesn't need to control his players, but then don't feed me lines about how you want to follow in Bo's footsteps and run UM like a top-notch program, because top-notch programs don't allow former players to bitch out the current regime in the media.
I like Carr as a person; he sounds like a decent, nice human being. But he screwed the pooch numerous times during RR's tenure, and he deserves some blame for the fiasco.
#2 I totally get what you are saying, and no I wouldn't want him or his players to lie. But once there is a new coach, I think you owe it to the University to support him and do whatever you can to make that coach and thus the program successful. The classiest response I heard, and what I would have liked to hear from all Michigan people, was "I support the head coach of the University of Michigan, whoever it is". I heard that from some, but definetely not all.
Again, i wouldn't want anyone to lie. I want that to be the truth because the University is bigger than any one coach or player.
#3 Coach Carr was associate (assistant?) athletic director. Since he was still part of the staff working to make Michigan great, he should have done anything he could to help the program. If talking to his former players would have mitigated some of the shit Rodriguez went through and thus help the team win some more games I don't think that is too much to ask. If he was not employed by the University I still think it would have been the right thing to do but wouldn't hold it against him if he didn't.
I hope we can all digest this book and move on within a few weeks. Hoke is the coach now. Rodriguez, Carr and Martin are gone. Its time to get back to being the greatest college football program in the country.
Lloyd Carr was not just a former coach. He was getting paid $400k a year to be the Assistant Athletic Director. Supporting the program, the coaches, and the players WAS HIS JOB. Regardless of his personal feelings. If he was not willing to do that, he should not have been in Schembechler Hall. As it was, his performance, or rather lack thereof, in this role was detrimental to the success of the program. Lloyd made mistakes here - and that's true whether you liked the Rich Rod hire or not.
wait wait wait....how is RR going to get kids to stay if the old coach is telling them to leave?
You're cool that he just left his own kids that he recruited to feel the effects of all the negativity, because he somehow judged before one season was played or after one season that the program would never possibly get better under RR (even as it did, albeit in a slight fashion)?
When you look at it through those LC-tinted shades (Crayloa color 1997, btw) I can see how you find no fault with the man and continue to place him on his unworthy pedestal.
1. Imagine RR did the same on his way out. Offered to sign transfer papers or encourgaed players to leave in any way. You would be okay with that?
2. Carr called RR and was one of the people that brought him into the picture to avoid hiring Miles. He should back that up or not make RR an option in the first place. You can't make a mess then go dark while i unfolds, you are beholden to try and do what you can to make the best of the situation, and that would mean publicly supporting giving RR a chance.
3. Everyone knows that Carr could have had some sway in the comments of his former players and did nothing to give them a better, more diplomatic way of expressing themselves, even if it was only by example. No he can't control them, but he could have been a much better leader in that respect.
If you think CArr left a somewhat empty cupboard, then he is even moreso bound to do what he can to help the person he left it too. Not less.
1/2 way through the book, will probably finish it tonight. What strikes me more than anything is the lack of help Rodriguez got from Martin after the hire. Or from Lloyd, or from anyone. The description of his first press conference was ridiculous. Had Rich been prepped on about 5 things, or said 5 things, his whole tenure would have been different. Things like "I grew up down the street from Yost." "I played for Nehlen who worked for Bo". With regards to the "Michigan Man" question in the press conference, rather than saying "I hope not they hired me!" If Rich had said "When Bo said that 'A Michigan Man should coach Michigan' about the basketball coach, what I believe he meant was that Michigan coaches have no reason to search for other opportunities. This is the best. A Michigan Man is someone who is all-in. 100% dedicated to this great University. I am that." How different would it all have been? What about if DB had handled this coaching transition and ended up with RR? Do you think RR would have had the press conference snafus? Or do we think DB might have just prepped him on a few soundbites that the media needed to hear, and everything would be good!?!
As the book says - Michigan hired Rodriguez, not the other way around. Yet there was precious little done by ANYONE to set him up to succeed.
Uh, I guess I missed the part where his new boss took him aside and prepped him a bit before the press conference.
Yeah, maybe he should have visited the city first, but timing dictated that he didn't. Should he have reached out on his own - absolutely. Was he naive about some things - again, absolutely.
However, to say he had plenty of help bedew that intro press conference? I didn't see that in the book, so I guess I fail at reading comprehension, too.
"What about if DB had handled this coaching transition and ended up with RR? "
From what I've read, seen, watched over the past 4-5 years, THIS ^^^ is the paramount difference from the 2008 coaching transition to the 2011 version.
I think DB opened the Coordinator salary wallet, I think DB had people coach Brady on what to say, how to say it, etc. I'm willing to go so far as to say that DB canvassed/eyed who the new DC should be, and it wasn't BH's "choice."
It rankles to think that just a year ago, Michigan was paying GERG $250k, and now the AD is paying Mattison >$675k. What if that money had been available 5 years ago, 7 years ago? (And don't lump all coaching staff salaries together, in a lame effort to smear RR...it was up to the AD to make competitive salaries a top priority, and until Hoke was hired, Michigan coaching staff salaries weren't even close!)