The Overturn
I addressed a couple of the Notre Dame officiating complaints after the game in yesterday's UV but didn't get around to the big one (other than what I'm pretty sure will be specious complaint about the holding call on Rudolph's screen touchdown, as I've seen a number of Michigan DL hogtied in the first half already). That would be the overturn of Armando Allen's screen touchdown, which was… you know… correct:
Notre Dame fans are accusing Big Ten referees of bias because they did not call Allen out of bounds despite the fact he was, and they are complaining that the video review made a correct call. This may be the most very special instance of internet Notre Dame mentality ever.
The argument here relies on the idea that the review was "inconclusive" given the replays shown on the TV, but those things are not necessarily the same things the replay guy sees. If we are parsing the shadows and whatnot—some Notre Dame fans see that picture and suggest that Allen's heel is not out of bounds—then we're back to semantics. What is "voluntary"? What is "conclusive"? If I close my eyes, does the universe cease existing?
The call was correct. You are not allowed to complain about a referee getting something right. That's not how complaints work.
I thought I was gonna take the line at -11 for the Irish cuz I thought they were gonna crush Sparty. Now, they can't let this go and Dantonio might pull one out of his ass (or at least make it close) while Weis blubbers for weeks about this (or years if he's fired). MOVE ON, it's not like we spiked the ball with negative 2 seconds left on the clock.
I think that you are dead on. Weis just can't let go and who knows what the big 10 refs are thinking about going into the game on Saturday. Does anyone know why there are Big 10 refs, isn't this game at ND?
MGoBleu
When I heard about this whole "Big East officials say..." I wondered, How usual is it for refs to go in and second-guess their colleagues' calls after the game? I mean, even if their colleagues are in another conference, they are still in the same beleaguered, underappreciated, thankless profession.
I would think as a professional courtesy you just wouldn't go there. Do Big East refs want Big Ten refs pulling up tape on Sunday and slagging on every supposed mistake they made the day before?
When in South Bend the "Ghosts of ND" show up and Michigan gets screwed (cheated). Not one peep from The Michigan Nation. The Big Ten Officials get all the calls right and there cheating? Sounds like a goldendomer propaganda for sure. ND is a good team, they can't conceptualize that Michigan could possibly beat them. Someone has to be the blame. So blame the officials! Wahhhhhhhhhh!!!
Victors Valiant '88
President of Exchange: Mortimer, your brother is not well. We better call an ambulance.
Mortimer Duke: Fuck him! Now, you listen to me! I want trading reopened right now. Get those brokers [refs] back in here! Turn those machines back on!
[shouts - it echoes pathetically throughout the trading hall]
Mortimer Duke: Turn those machines back on!
This loss will eat at the insides of the Irish for quite a while.
What could have been but was not to be.
Go Blue!
Hello folks. I live 30 minutes from South Bend and my local NBC channel is WNDU. (The NDU part is Notre Dame Unviversity)
They just won't let it go. Apparentlly officials from the Big East said that the touchdown should have counted and there wasn't conclusive video proof and blah blah balh blah.
Here's the thing though... WNDU was at the game and they got a perfect HD shot of that dude stepping out of bounds with their own camers. So Notre Dame knows for sure the Big Ten guys got it right and their still crying about it.
I so hate Notre Dame.
Kyrie Smith
http://www.wndu.com/ndfootball/headlines/59263772.html
I am done now on this topic
Warning: A =) is a sarcastic or joke filled post. (Its pretty much the happiest smiley out there, I have been told) Despite being a ND fan I do have a sense of humor
...Big East officials are crappier than those from the Big Ten.
The article says Michigan requested the review. As far as I recall they only asked for a timeout
WolverRoudy
Read that again (emphasis mine)
I get the feeling the Irish football office ... ahem ... left out the more damning tapes if you will.
Michigan has had lots of non-Big Ten refs calling games in early season things and bowl games. I can't remember ever hearing of the Big Ten reviewing the tapes AND publicly questioning another conference's officiating crew. This seems kind of like out of bounds. Anyone think of any?
This team is under construction. We thank you for your patience.
Group of people who weren't at the game, didn't see all the review footage the referees calling the game did, and have nothing to do with anything have, like, another opinion, man.
This is relevant how?
Got a quarter?
That this would end poorly for you.
I knew that the game would be close and that it would hinge on a few plays. That was one of them. Give it up. We won. There is NOTHING that you, Fat Charlie or ANYONE can do about it.
As much as everyone here respects you, you are starting to lose that respect because of how you are acting. Man up.
"A house divided against itself cannot stand"
One member of the reffing crew did initially rule him OOB IIRC. Also, it's spectacular that after the fact, refs that weren't there are allowed to weigh in. Coolio.
I also love all the direct implications that the refs cost ND 4 points, and, oh look, ND lost the game by 4 points. Totally ignoring that it was 7-0 in the 1Q at the time of the play.
Come on man, you need to get over this. We like you, but I think you're running a crusade (LOLOLOL I'm Anti-Catholic!) in the wrong place.
Oh, and note that the Big-East officials just said the call shouldn't have been overturned, NOTHING about whether or not it was the CORRECT call. Honestly, do you really want ND to win on a incorrect call because they thought it was right at the time? Be honest.
Because I am sure the Big East officials had all the angles used in the replay booth during the game.
Do you actually want an illegal touchdown?
I mean, even if you believe the booth official had no basis for overruling the call on the field, is that the way you want to win?
Just wondering.
Marc Shepherd
New York, NY
No, the Irish are much to busy bitching about thugs and hooligans, biased refs, graduation rates, and anti-Catholicism to stop and think about what they are actually saying.
It should have been a touchdown waaahhhhh.
...to conclusively prove that he was out of bounds. And it involved MS Paint.
On the TV the replay looked inconclusive.
From this view, the refs clearly got it right.
Good work.
Pronounced Ahh-Neh-Muh
I keep waiting for ND fans, once they realize that the call was, in fact, correct, to shift gears and somehow blame the out of bounds incident on Tyrone Willingham.
I find it hilarious that sports fans -- including me -- will expend extraordinary amounts of time and energy arguing things that will never change. It's in the record books that ND lost, but Irish will still argue the call was wrong; it's in the record books that Michigan won, but numerous people will still tell Irish he's wrong. It's comical.
sgtwolverine.com
I love how the local news station presents an exclusive video of Allen stepping out of bounds then titles it "WNDU cameras show ND's Allen MAY have been out of bounds." Well played.
I think this still shot may actually be from WNDU's camera and not from ABC. I'm sure they sent a cameraman and reporter to the game given the excitement level leading up to Satruday. It makes sense that they would be standing on the ND sideline and this could very well be an exclusive.
I know very little about video and hopefully someone can add more detail, but isn't there a frame rate for video - something like 60 frames every second? Is it possible that the ABC feed and WNDU feeds were essentially a half cycle off from each other? The WNDU screen shot makes it clear that Allen stepped out, and perhaps the ABC video captures his foot the instants before and after he steps out, but the split second his heel touched the sideline wasn't captured. I have no idea if this is plausible, but seems like a possible explanation for the differences between the ABC and WNDU shots.
Another theory on which I know absolutely nothing - is there a difference between HD and the shoulder held Beta cameras that TV stations use? Could that explain the differences in the stills?
But I think the situation described above is certainly possible. None of us know for sure, but if I had to guess if the replay officials had footage from WNDU, I would guess not. They could have had other angles that we didn't see on replay, but likely not this one if it was, in fact, captured by a WNDU cameraperson.
In short, is it possible that conclusive evidence exists that Allen stepped out of bounds but that the replay official did not have access to this evidence at the time he had to render a verdict? Yes, it is possible. Is it possible the replay official had evidence (other ABC camera angles) at his disposal other than what we saw on TV (which, IMHO, was inconclusive, despite my prayers that the replay official would see it differently)? Sure.
Unless somebody here knows how many cameras ABC had at the game, where they were positioned and why or why not producers would show viewers the best shots and what other video footage, other than from ABC, to which replay officials have access, or unless somebody gets an exclusive interview with the replay official, we're just not going to know.
There have been a few comments, including Brian's, that there are secondary video feeds available to the replay refs beyond what is being broadcast by the network. Does anyone know anything further about this? I had been under the impression that the replay guys were working with what the network supplied. Is there a separate camera crew for the replay system that is used in addition to the network crew? Is this separate feed tied in with the video for the scoreboards?
correct me if i'm wrong, but i think i remember where minor ran the ball and they called a fumble where the replay clearly showed he was already down. they didn't review and we lost a couple yards that could have made a difference. or how about when clausen chucked a ball right into a db's stomach and he dropped it. unlucky breaks and calls happen for both teams all the time, you can't blame a loss on them.
The other thing that really gets me about stuff like this is that even with the overturn, ND had a first down in the red zone. They still had plenty of chances to score a TD. The refs didn't stop them on the next three plays, UM's defense did.
So to act like this call was the difference in the game is ridiculous. Our D still had to stuff them 3 times. And wasn't this the series where FrontButt tried to have Clausen run a draw up the middle? That's just your own stupidity failing you, not the refs.
I don't know why domers keep harping on this touchdown being called back. If it had stood, the universe would have branched into a new reality where the rest of the game would not have happened as it did. The 4 point difference in this case is moot.
In this parallel universe, Michigan may have still won. Maybe by even more.
Think of it this way: If, instead of being in the mood, your mom had a headache the night you were conceived you would not exist.
IOW, get over it. Be happy you exist and that you were witness to one of the greatest games this rivalry has ever produced.
Armando A. actually did the same "shhhh" finger to lips taunting at the end of that TD that was called back. When he ran into the endzone he ssshuussed the crowd. Check it out. Not sure if he was warned about that but if he was, it could explain why it was called taunting when he did it again later.
Looks like Notre Dame is headed to the Motor City Bowl or whatever it's called now. That should make the Irish alumni smile.
Quite the contrary. Notre Dame looks to be every bit as good as advertised. They have a potent aerial attack. One of the best in the country. I won't be surprised if they win 9-10 games this year.
Save for SC, they might win the rest of their games. All of the Charlie Weis jokes aside, he has the team in pretty good shape.
I have a Fandom Endurance III merit badge
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3059/conclusiveno.jpg
I went through each frame of the replay video, there is nothing in it close to being conclusive
Warning: A =) is a sarcastic or joke filled post. (Its pretty much the happiest smiley out there, I have been told) Despite being a ND fan I do have a sense of humor
Well then thank goodness you weren't one of the refs on Saturday; you would have gotten the call wrong.
To be honest I think the call was questionable. I was at the game and although it did look like he MAY have stepped out of bounds, it did not seem like the evidence was conclusive. Either way, the call was made. Bad calls are a part of all sports, they are something a team must overcome. UM lost the 2006 OSU game because they scored less points than OSU, not because Crable was called for that late hit.
Those who stay will be champions.
You sir are a stud-bolt.
waaahhhhh
(now go away wanker, the game is over)
Strictly business...Not personal.
You're looking at an optical illusion.
http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/overturn-debunking-irish-image
But Plus 1 for grabbing that screen shot and making things challenging. That's the kind of opposition I like on this board.
This team is under construction. We thank you for your patience.
Is on or past the line dude. Sorry.
Holy schnikes, you can take a look at the photo that is in this post for conclusive evidence. It's right there, and his foot is out of bounds. BOOM SO SORRY'D.
What else is there to discuss?
The Wolverine Liberation Army- saving Michigan fans one dick joke at a time.
That's from the network replay and it is inconclusive. As Brian already pointed out, the refs in the booth have access to more than just what is shown to the TV audience. Hence the picture above, which is pretty conclusive.
"...what do you say, is it the new Bluesmobile or what?"
"Fix the cigarette lighter."
Dude, he was out and you know it. It sucks, but them's the breaks. It was also in the 1st Q; the entire game would have been different.
Edit: What's even funnier is the joke on PSU boards that UM got the 2 seconds taken off the clock there to make up for the added 2 seconds in the 2005 PSU game.
And yes, once I start comparing you to PSU fans, you should probably stop this line of bitching.
I'm glad you're still posting here, Irish. The whining ND fans in meltdown mode complaining about this are one thing, but the rational, reasoned response from you on this are another.
Based on only what I saw on TV, I wouldn't be too happy if that call went against my team. I wouldn't make asinine comments on message boards (my team's or others') and I understand it's possible that the replay referee had other angles, but, if I ignore the color of the jersey that guy was wearing, I'm not sure if I would say I saw conclusive evidence, either.
That said, as a Michigan fan, I sure am happy the way it broke.
I will say that I thought Cissoko committed another PI penalty that wasn't called in addition to the few holding penalties I saw ND commit that weren't called. And the holding penalty that brought back the long Rudolph pass maybe possible wasn't holding on replay, but that take down gets called nine times out of 10, so tough for any team to complain about that one.
thank you for everything you posted but in particular the part above.
Warning: A =) is a sarcastic or joke filled post. (Its pretty much the happiest smiley out there, I have been told) Despite being a ND fan I do have a sense of humor
What is your response to all of the pictures of the terrible non-holding that Sam Young was doing to BG (particularly the Headless BG picture).
The calls went both ways Michigan had just as many penalties and most of ours weren't stupid I.E. having a junior qb who doesn't know to look up at the play clock.
Maybe you should stop bitching about the reffing and look internally at your Junior QB (who had a hell of a game) but did not MANAGE the game well. (NO SUGARCOAT)
Also either way the OOB call should have been reviewed and Michigan should not have had to waste a time-out on that. No matter who you root for you had to have saw the replay and said "well shit that deserves a second look"
"A house divided against itself cannot stand"
Most involving an ND lineman holding Brandon Graham, and at least one perpetrated by Sam Young. But the "headless Brandon Graham photo" is not the result of Young's fine work. It is LG Chris Stewart and, if it is from the play of which I am thinking, it was called a penalty, negating a six- or seven-yard Clausen scramble in the 3rd qtr.
I was wrong. The "headless shot" was on a 4th qtr play where Clausen completed a pass to Golden Tate for 10-yards (or so) on ND's penultimate drive. It should have come back.
It was Chris Stewart, though.
Thats whatever Olineman with his hand firmly gripping the rusher, its not as easy to see in a snapshot but in the video it is really obvious
Holding calls were the biggest jokes of the game
Warning: A =) is a sarcastic or joke filled post. (Its pretty much the happiest smiley out there, I have been told) Despite being a ND fan I do have a sense of humor
could be called against the Irish. You Irish see all kind of crap when it is against you. Take off those Irish Pokemon glasses! You are seeing things.
Victors Valiant '88
are in his frame, no leverage used there. now if he continued on and the nd player got bent backwards, THEN you could call it holding. but that frame is NOT holding.
The snapshot doesn't tell me anything.