If you're gonna go please be in the first round.
Morgan Trent Is Not All In
Filed under:
Another week, another riot. We are all Greek. The cause of this one:
At the end of the book, Deren describes the scene with Lloyd Carr, the former Michigan head coach that recruited Trent to Ann Arbor, breaking the news to Trent that current head coach Rich Rodriguez did him no favors.
“Rodriguez had bad-mouthed him to every NFL scout he could,” Deren writes. “Rodriguez claimed that Morgan was lazy, he had an attitude problem and he was a big reason the Wolverines finished with a 3-9 record…”
Trent admits the words were “jarring,” and they were hard to understand given that he was so serious about his career that he actually moved in with his brother and sister-in-law and their two small children while going to Michigan. [ed: "Morgan Trent was so serious about football he decided to save on rent."]
But Trent was also worried about what Carr thought about his words showing up in the book. He talks to him, not Rodriguez. “I really like Coach Carr. He’s been very good to me,” Morgan says. “I think at first he was wondering, but I let him know it didn’t put him in a bad light. I would never do something like that to Lloyd. He’s great.” …
“I guess it was motivation,” Morgan says of the words that Deren estimates may have cost him $1 million. “(I) want to show people it was all false.”
Consider it done.
Here we go again, after one hell of a game of telephone from Rodriguez to NFL scout—at this point the story can get passed to and fro ad nauseum—to Carr to Trent to book author Deren. Rodriguez issued a denial…
“The comments attributed to me are inaccurate and absolutely ridiculous,” Rodriguez said in a statement. “I said just the opposite about Morgan Trent to NFL scouts and wish him well with the Bengals.”
…but even so, don't you kind of believe it anyway? Don't you sort of want to believe it? I believe Rodriguez told NFL scouts some version of what Deren says. I also believe that Trent was a lazy player with an attitude problem who was one of the main reasons Rodriguez's first team was a jumbled sack of cats attempting to claw in 20 different directions. Even if he didn't say it, I believe the words attributed to Rodriguez are accurate.
Trent's personal animosity towards Rodriguez has been made plain. We've previously established around here that football players are not compliance experts and the distinction between countable and non-countable hours befuddles even said experts. A former player's opinion on Michigan's we're-talking-about-stretching violations says more about his relationship with Rodriguez than anything about the violations. It's a Rorshach test. What Morgan Trent sees*:
"I'm not surprised because I know what happened, and I know what kind of rules were broken. I couldn't see how they were going to get out of that."
"Whatever steps need to be taken (to restore Michigan's winning tradition), I'm all for it. What is happening right now obviously is not working. I don't know how long they're going to let this last until changes are made."
"Coach Rod’s a good coach, and people are just trying to get him in trouble to me," Graham said.
So Morgan Trent is not disposed to give Rodriguez the benefit of the doubt when Lloyd Carr convenes a special meeting of the Anti-Rodriguez illuminati with the express purpose of revealing the dastardly secret carried about by Rich Rodriguez…
who controls the practice logs?
who puts Michigan Stadium in a bog?
weeeeee dooooooo… we do!
…that any Michigan fan could already have told you.
Here is the reason Morgan Trent went in the sixth round:
this happened like eight times in that game
He was not particularly good at football. He badly regressed after a promising junior season. Then when he went to the Shrine Bowl he "struggled," reinforcing the opinion of scouts "already down on him." The reason for this is now obvious: he hated the transition to Rodriguez, probably hated the coach himself, and spent a year half-assing it. The responsibility for this lies with Morgan Trent, even if he was so serious about football he lived with relatives(!). Attempts to deflect it only reinforce the very criticism (possibly) leveled by Rodriguez. It had nothing to do with the quality of the team, as Trent claims elsewhere in the article. A guy from Hillsdale went in the third round this year. The Bengals hadn't even talked to Rodriguez and still waited and waited and waited to take him.
During the very moments when Trent was doing whatever it was that made him a team cancer, Brandon Graham was turning himself into a first-round pick. We have not had any reports on what Rodriguez told NFL scouts about Brandon Graham, but dollars to donuts they were along the lines of "draft this man first overall and ask if he will adopt your kids." The reason Rich Rodriguez would say this is because of the things Brandon Graham did. You see, Rudy?
Now, there are a disturbing number of people who look at the Rich Rodriguez inkblot and see big pointy teeth. One major reason for this is that Rodriguez appears to be much harder on his players than Lloyd Carr. It's the very tippy top of the peak of hypocrisy for any Bo-venerating Michigan fan to look down on Rodriguez for this (his failure to resemble Bo in the win column is another matter). Part of that veneration is accepting the idea that being a coach often involves being very harsh to people who aren't living up to your expectations.
I wish that Rodriguez had managed to enter more smoothly but don't really blame him for the massive culture clash no one from fans to players to athletic director anticipated. He has a track record.
To be perfectly blunt and enraging to the denizens of the comments who get enraged when people pop on here and say dumb MLive-type things about departed players, I do blame Trent. Michigan is not going to be in good shape if Rich Rodriguez leaves after this year, and Trent would clearly like to see that happen and is operating either without a care as to how his inability to suck it up affects the program or with the express intent of getting rid of Rodriguez. Loyalty to the institution does not occur to him. It appears that correcting the record is so important to him that he's willing to sell out his alma mater to refute allegations that may not have actually happened and no one knew about. In doing so he's convinced me that the potentially fictional and definitely obscure allegations are true.
So… congratulations Morgan. You've invented a variant on the Streisand Effect.
As for Carr, he gave explicit permission to Trent to sell Rodriguez out in this book:
But Trent was also worried about what Carr thought about his words showing up in the book. He talks to him, not Rodriguez. “I really like Coach Carr. He’s been very good to me,” Morgan says. “I think at first he was wondering, but I let him know it didn’t put him in a bad light. I would never do something like that to Lloyd. He’s great.”
No, just Rodriguez. Any question as so whether or not there is a major rift between the two coaches is now gone. If there wasn't, Carr would have talked to Rodriguez about it. He would have gotten some clarification or a denial or something, and he wouldn't have presented it to Trent in the fashion he did. If he didn't do that, he would have told Trent to shut up when given the opportunity.
If there is really a New Era of Accountability in the athletic department, Carr and David Brandon should have a come-to-Jesus meeting in which Brandon does a lot of screaming. Trent is a pissed-off kid who was working for a scholarship. Carr is supposedly a program icon and an athletic department employee. Michigan shouldn't be paying someone who is actively working against the interests of the athletic department. It's obvious that Carr could have helped smooth things over with any number of players but chose not to, chose to exacerbate things in certain situations. He could have been of help during the transition; he was the opposite.
Through it all, Rodriguez just grits his teeth and asks if you've heard his Lion King joke. I shudder at the tell-all book that will inevitably follow a Rodriguez canning.
*(meta: I had to link to a mgoboard message board post instead of the News because the News shoved their story behind a paywall a month after they posted it. No one is ever going to pay for that article. Go newspapers.)
May 10th, 2010 at 3:04 PM | 
You're wrong in every way.
You're wrong in every way.
May 10th, 2010 at 3:38 PM |
I disagree that Lloyd should
I disagree that Lloyd should
I disagree that Lloyd should be required to respond when someone as heavyweight as Bobby Deren publishes something that might impugn Rodriguez.
But regardless, that's an entirely different argument than your statement regarding mountains being made out of poorly-sourced molehills. If you think that many of the negative stories have been based on poor journalism and sensationalism, I'm not sure why you're not applying the same skepticism to this mess.
May 10th, 2010 at 4:12 PM |
I don't understand you.
I don't understand you.
If the Bobby Deren story is so unimportant and so far beneath the dignity of Coach Carr to rebut, then why is it getting play on Freep.com?
I'll give you a really easy metric; one that Coach Carr can apply for all similar instances in the future. If it is important enough for Michigan's current Head Football Coach to comment (as Rodriguez did, denying his role in the story), then is important enough for Carr to comment and back up Rodriguez.
May 10th, 2010 at 4:18 PM |
The New Math
The New Math
So we should take this seriously because the Freep decided to run with it?
May 10th, 2010 at 5:07 PM |
I don't think I said, "...we should take this seriously..."
I don't think I said, "...we should take this seriously..."
What I said is that it ought to be a simple matter for Carr to clarify and/or refute this story. And so he should.
May 10th, 2010 at 3:41 PM |
In other words...
In other words...
Carr is a big boy and one of the senior leaders within the Michigan Athletic Department. As such, he has a responsibility to represent and uphold the image of the Michigan AD. I absolutely agree with you Section 1. I don't care if Lloyd Carr likes or dislikes Rich Rod. As a highly regarded and well-paid employee of the University of Michigan, Lloyd Carr needs to start living up to his responsibilities.
Hoke bitches...Hoke.
May 10th, 2010 at 4:34 PM |
Lloyd is staying silent
Lloyd is staying silent
because he can only make things worse by speaking up. He knows what he heard and told Trent. Brian's analysis was that RRod probably did say something negative about Trent who may have deserved it. RRod has now denied it. If Carr comes out and gives his version after RRod has denied it, it only raises the temperature on the whole thing, even if he acknowledges he has no personal knowlege of what RRod said or didn't say. His better course is to remain silent. Unless you are suggesting that Carr support RRod's version even if that is contrary to what Carr heard and said.
May 11th, 2010 at 9:12 AM |
Great theory! Turns out it
Great theory! Turns out it
Great theory! Turns out it was total bullshit!
May 10th, 2010 at 3:16 PM |
it would be great
it would be great
if you applied that same filter toward the negative PR directed at RR
May 10th, 2010 at 2:18 PM |
My Reaction On Everything I've Now Seen
My Reaction On Everything I've Now Seen
I’m a bit surprised how quickly many on this board accept what is put in media print after essentially two years of calling for the media’s head. The way I see it, many people on here are being hypocritical, quickly claiming any negative Rich Rod sentiment is unjustified and absolutely wrong, while believing anything that anyone says that someone else said that someone else said negative about our current coach as correct. This baffles me a bit, and upsets me. This is maize and blue blinders.
Now, is Carr happy that Rich Rod was hired instead of one of the many coaches he was or formerly was extremely loyal to? Probably not. Did it kill Carr that RR came in a fired all but one of his assistant coaches, who had some great success, especially at CB, QB, O-Line, and RB over the years? Maybe. Did Carr take Ron English under his wing in attempt to groom him to possibly be a head coach? Certainly. IME I think had Ron English been our head coach we would have been fine, I think our recruiting would have been great and Ron English could have put people around him much like Lloyd did, and many of Michigan’s previous coaches. It doesn’t matter what I think though, to me it isn’t personal. To Carr it very much is. To Carr, if RR put down his former player, his son that he cared deeply for, that’s another slight against Carr. That’s another cut, another scar. That’s another whisper that Carr was not good for Michigan, that he was too old, past his prime, not good enough. That can be construed as an indirect attack on Carr personally, and an indirect attack on Carr through another player. Whether Carr feels that way, I don’t know, but I wouldn’t put it past him, and if it happened to me, I can’t say I wouldn’t feel the same way.
All this can mean very little in the end. We have no idea what was said besides what we heard RR say. Other than that, it’s who we believe, or more appropriate with the mgoblog reaction, what we believe. Carr may be bitter, but he still wants what is best for the program. RR still wants what’s best for the program. Their cultures, philosophies, and feeling may clash, but to dump on Carr as the media is quick to dump on RR is absurd. Lloyd has every right to talk to his previous players, and has every right to not talk about Rich Rod. He isn’t the coach, he doesn’t want to be up front for the Michigan program, he doesn’t want to be what Bo was after he stepped down. He wants to sit in the shadows and silently help his greatest causes (Mott Children’s hospital) and the program. And when the program succeeds again, be it under RR or someone else, I can guarantee Lloyd will be taking the same approach, and that’s the approach he believes is best.
May 10th, 2010 at 2:15 PM |
"Explicit permission"
"Explicit permission"
Explicit. You say this word, but I do not think it means what you think it means.
Brian, if you can point me to the evidence for Lloyd's 'permission,' or give me a convincing timeline for what actually happened between Lloyd, Trent, and Deren, I'd love to hear it. That little block quote up there doesn't do it at all. What would 'permission' mean in this context? How do we know what would have happened even if Trent told Lloyd, 'this is exactly what I said to this guy about Rodriguez' and Lloyd said, 'I hereby withold my permission for you to disseminate that to the masses'? Couldn't Deren have published whatever he wanted to anyway? He certainly seems like a writer who wouldn't let complexity get in the way of his heartwarming tale of Trent's Victory Over Adversity. Isn't this the same guy who said something along the lines of Morgan Trent being one of the best human beings in the history of ever?
You're great writer and an insightful guy, but I think the red mist is driving the cart on this post [a metaphor so mixed I'm almost proud of it]. If we think that what Rodriguez actually said is difficult to recover because of the layers of hearsay in Deren's Love Song to Rookies, then why are we so sure about what Lloyd's role was? Further, what difference would it make even if Brandon decided to scream at Lloyd and fired him? Wouldn't Carr's former players still be able to call him even if he didn't have an office in Schembechler Hall?
I'll agree that the mass of evidence is pointing towards Lloyd turning a very cold shoulder to the Rodriguez regime. I wish it weren't so. But I can somewhat understand that Lloyd, an extremely proud, stubborn, and loyal man, has taken umbrage to Rodriguez repeatedly implying that the former coaches and S/C staff were basically dead weight on the program, and consistently harping on the bareness of the cupboard he inherited. People forget, in all our (justifiable) excitement for some of the changes that Rodriguez has promised to bring, that he was far less than diplomatic with some of his public statements as soon as he was hired. Of course, Rodriguez was right that the talent wasn't there for him in 2008, but I think it probably irked Lloyd to hear Rod impugn not only his regime, but the players themselves, instead of squarely putting the blame on himself and the coaching staff - yes, even though they didn't really deserve it.
I don't think either man is blameless. Lloyd is very proud and very crotchety, and could be blamed for failing to bury whatever ire he may have for Rodriguez for the sake of the program. I think Rodriguez deserves a little bit of blame for failing to put current Michigan players 100% ahead of his own interests when he first started on the job. Me, I hope that Rodriguez learns to think more carefully about what he's saying in press conferences, that he starts winning, and that we can stop paying attention to these kinds of bullshit issues.
May 10th, 2010 at 2:30 PM |
Disagree with your premise
Disagree with your premise
But I can somewhat understand that Lloyd, an extremely proud, stubborn, and loyal man, has taken umbrage to Rodriguez repeatedly implying that the former coaches and S/C staff were basically dead weight on the program, and consistently harping on the bareness of the cupboard he inherited.
RR never harped on a bare cupboard. In fact he spoke very carefully about the players he inherited. We all know that the players were a poor fit for RR's style and there were just no D players, but RR never publicly said or hinted at this. This is also true for the S&C program
"I think Rodriguez deserves a little bit of blame for failing to put current Michigan players 100% ahead of his own interests when he first started on the job."
What does this mean? RR put the interests of the team above all current players and himself. His own interest = win games, without getting in trouble by the NCAA. Which players are you referring to where he put himself ahead?
"They're stuck with that quarterback (sophomore Braxton Miller) for the next two or three years, that's fine with me. He throws worse than (Tim) Tebow. - Steve Everitt
May 10th, 2010 at 2:42 PM |
Rodriguez never used the
Rodriguez never used the
Rodriguez never used the phrase 'bare cupboard' - that's true. But he repeatedly talked about the lack of depth on the team, instead of only saying something along the line of 'we need to do a better job of getting the team ready to play.'
He and his staff also made a big deal about all the revolutionary changes they were making, especially in terms of conditioning. I don't think he was nearly as careful as you are portraying him. He wasn't a complete asshole or a bull in a china shop, but I think he was a bit too concerned with convincing people he was the right man for the job, especially at first - at the expense of diplomacy. There wasn't any malice in it - my theory that one of Rod's flaws is that he wants people to like him way too badly. (At least this was a flaw when he first got here. The Freep may have cured him by now.)
Now, clearly there was a lack of quality depth, and while the 'country club atmosphere' meme is a gross exaggeration, it seems that practice and conditioning is more intense under Rod. Which is great. I'm not as worried about him stepping on the toes of the past regime, although it probably pissed Lloyd off, especially when his assistants and staff were being implicitly criticized.
What did bother me a little at the time, and what Lloyd never did, to the best of my knowledge, was to allow the quality of the players themselves to enter into the discussion in press conferences at times. It was in his own interest to make it seem that he was not at fault for 3-9, when it might have fit the culture of the program better to bite the bullet and do a more emphatic job of shielding his players from criticism. Obviously, now that most everyone on the team is 'his own player,' this kind of situation doesn't really exist anymore. Not so in 2008.
May 10th, 2010 at 3:13 PM |
So when his coaching staff -
So when his coaching staff -
So when his coaching staff - most of whom have been successful in other places and are highly regarded- are criticized despited the fact players are making crucial mistakes and "not buying in," and causing infighting, Coach Rodriguez is supposed to say, "yep, we coaches are screwing up..." ?
I don't come from that school of thought. If players are not doing the right thing and have a cancerous attitude, why should Rich point fingers at his fellow coaches? There is this thing called deadwood, and every coach I know says that they need to be run out.
May 10th, 2010 at 3:23 PM |
Run the dead wood out.*
Run the dead wood out.*
Run the dead wood out.* Dress players down who don't buy in. Tell people who aren't pulling their weight exactly what the fuck they need to do in order to keep their spot in the lineup. Make the malcontents run the stadium steps until their heads are on straight or they transfer.
Just don't do anything like that in a press conference. My opinion is that, with college kids, you shouldn't be criticizing players to the media.
Let me be clear that I don't think Rodriguez has commited some kind of egregious sins, just that he hasn't been perfect. I like the guy, and I hope he can get the wolves off his ass with a winning season this year. I'm just bringing this up because my theory is that this is the sort of thing that drove Lloyd up a fucking wall about him.
*But keep Deadwood around, because that is a great fucking show for those long bus trips.
May 10th, 2010 at 3:41 PM |
I agree that
I agree that
RR hasn't been perfect and has made some serious mistakes (e.g. hiring Shaffer and being so open with the press, ). However, I guess our disagreement is in that RR didn't ever seem to critize Lloyd. I thought he choose his words carefully, while discussing his system and differences.
(I mean when he got a million dollars in new weights, he has to say something, but no matter what that gesture is telling of his thoughts on Michigan's equipment - it wasn't old equipment, BTW).
The sadness to me, as an alum and fan is that Lloyd doesn't give a shit and is watching (maybe smiling & getting paid well by the AD while this happens). All he had to do a couple of times is let out a line or 2 showing support for RR as a coach or person, and public perception would have been better.
"They're stuck with that quarterback (sophomore Braxton Miller) for the next two or three years, that's fine with me. He throws worse than (Tim) Tebow. - Steve Everitt
May 10th, 2010 at 3:38 PM |
I disagree with that wholeheartedly
I disagree with that wholeheartedly
but I think that is a matter of perception and i think it very possible that any comment with regard to changes I the S&C regimen or the talent level might be construed as a slight from RR by anyone who was a huge fan of the Carr way of doing things.
I think RR was actually VERY careful not to slam the new regime and in several instances made very pointed comments that his philosophy was very different than the previous regime and that easch had its place. He was actually never comparative in any way and in fact was quite the opposite whenever questioned about it directly.
As for discussing the talent level, when you are fielding a team that is playing walk-ons at several key positions, having a 2-deep that is only sparsely populated by players able to contribute meaninfully, gaps even at positions manned by scholarship athletes and are starting walk-on/freshman QBs one year and then a true freshman the next, how can you go to a press conference and NOT talk about the talent level? You can't fault him for providing an honest assessment of the state of the team.
May 10th, 2010 at 3:41 PM |
Your last paragraph
Your last paragraph
I understand what you're saying, and I'm not condemning Rodriguez to damnation for his press conferences. But yes, I can fault him a little for not having thick enough skin to say that it was the coaching staff's fault, even if it wasn't. I understand that this is not a universally accepted position.
May 10th, 2010 at 6:25 PM |
at times he did place responsibility
at times he did place responsibility
on the staff, but I hear where you are coming from, I do have issues with talking about inadequacies in a particular position group and/or player and I did see some of that in what he said. Though it was generally limited, it is still poor form and does not engender the mentality I would want on a team, but then again I am about as far away as you can get from a D1 head coach ;)
To be fair, I don't think any of it came about as a method of shifting blame, but rather a desire to speak candidly to people about his concerns and what he wanted to fix.
I used to not appreciate Carr's attitude toward the press, loved him, but i thought it was a bit behind the times. In retrospect, saying as little as possible to the press would seem a wise course of action in providing as little ammunition as possible.
May 10th, 2010 at 3:44 PM |
I just want to point out that
I just want to point out that
I just want to point out that the main premise of my post was that Brian is over-reacting to a bullshit story in which it is entirely unclear who said what to whom.
My theory of what might be the beef between Lloyd and Rod was kind of a tangent, though it's my theory which I invented and is mine.
I also believe that all brontosauruses are thin at one end; much, much thicker in the middle; and then thin again at the far end.
May 10th, 2010 at 4:07 PM |
"I don't believe in
"I don't believe in
"I don't believe in brontosauruses." -- Carl Everett
That's a direct quote.
May 10th, 2010 at 6:26 PM |
+1
+1
who the hell negs for brontosauruses?
May 10th, 2010 at 7:12 PM |
That's an easy one...Carl
That's an easy one...Carl
That's an easy one...Carl Everett, that's who!
I didn't, by the way...
May 10th, 2010 at 8:47 PM |
lol, of course, dear Carl ;)
lol, of course, dear Carl ;)
for the record, didn't think it was you, likely some random negbanger
May 10th, 2010 at 2:32 PM |
If you are saying,
If you are saying,
"It is okay for Lloyd Carr to just sit in his office at Weidenbach Hall, fill out his health insurance forms, trade telephone messages with Mary Sue Coleman, and pick up his check every other Friday," well, then we have a real disagreement.
The story might indeed have some serious errors in it. But Lloyd Carr can straighten them out. And he damned well ought to straighten them out.
The good of the football program and the Michigan Athletic Department dictates that Lloyd go on the record, right now.
What interest, other than perhaps Carr's own personal interest, is served by Carr staying quiet?
May 10th, 2010 at 2:25 PM |
Gee whiz I wonder why Morgan
Gee whiz I wonder why Morgan
Gee whiz I wonder why Morgan Trent didn't get drafted until the 6th round
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVej08Kdu-Y
Nice tackle, chump
May 10th, 2010 at 2:35 PM |
I'm sick of all the
I'm sick of all the
I'm sick of all the Michigan traditionalists (on this board and elsewhere) longing for the days of Lloyd and weakening RR's tenure at Michigan. What a great fan base...we hire a guy who's a proven winner, and then try to run him out of town after two years without giving him even a chance to prove his slot here. I'm sure future coaches will love dealing with this. What a spoiled, entitled group of fans... I don't care who negs me for saying this.
So to all Michigan fans: just chill the f-out. Who cares what Trent had to say. He was a lazy player. My friends and I used to call him "Toast" because he always got burned. Let's wait to see what the players that RR brings in have to say once they go pro. That'll tell a more complete story than some left over Lloyd kid.
And let's just see what happens this year. If this were happening to another fan base that was just as smug as ours, I guarantee you we would be laughing at their divided house.
May 10th, 2010 at 2:45 PM |
Toast!
Toast!
Tell me more about the original nicknames you and your friends come up with!
My bros and I call A-Rod A-Fraud because he's a big phony (like Fraud.)
I also had a friend who was a big-time pitching prospect, and I called him Meat because he was kinda dumb and was mostly just valuable as a commodity for a major league team.
May 10th, 2010 at 2:40 PM |
Man...
Man...
I'll just lay it out there.
This blind loyalty to Rodriguez is just stupid. It's blasphemous to question anything he does, but we can make any tenuous connection to paint any former player or coach in a bad light if they say something we don't like. Brandon Graham and Morgan Trent have the exact same level of credibility when it comes to analyzing Rodriguez's program (a lot more than any of us have). Just because Graham says something you like and Trent says something you don't care for doesn't make Graham right and Trent wrong.
Rodriguez has implied on more than one occasion that Carr is significantly at fault for UM's failures in '08 and '09. Carr has taken the high road and never responded to his name being dragged through the mud. Remember when Rodriguez was going to sit down with the media at the end of the season and explain what was really going on? Thank god Martin or Brandon or someone put a stop to that. It seems to me that Rodriguez has no issue bashing Carr, so why should Carr be a big supporter of his? As for Brandon going into Carr's office and screaming at him. Please, you have lost your mind, Brian. Lloyd Carr doesn't need the job in the AD. I would imagine he does a significant job raising funds and he is always a PR positive. It's foolish to think that he would tolerate something like that. If I'm Lloyd Carr and Dave Brandon comes into my office yelling, he gets about three sentences before I cut him off, tell him to go eff himself and see myself out. That ends up reflecting poorly on UM and the AD, not Carr.
Here are some numbers...
Wins per season - Carr = 9.38, Rodriguez = 4.0
Losses per season - Carr = 3.08, Rodriguez = 8.0
Big Ten Titles per season - Carr = 0.39, Rodriguez = 0
"BCS" Bowls per season - Carr = 0.39, Rodriguez = 0
NCAA Violations per season - Carr = 0, Rodriguez = 2.5
Yeah, Carr is definitely who we should be bashing here.
Let's keep saying that the violations are 10 minutes of extra stretching and ignoring the conscious hiring of extra coaches. Let's keep being afraid to say, "Hey, this guy has failed in two years as coach. I sure hope he turns it around and this works out, but it really seems like it won't." Let's keep assuming this season goes better, even though it's been well shown that defense wins championships and there are only small signs to hope this year's defense is better. Let's shoot down everyone who has the gall to say anything negative. Let's be afraid to consider getting rid of him, because he might succeed somewhere else later.
I think some of you are so far down the rabbit hole, there's no light in sight.
May 10th, 2010 at 2:58 PM |
To me the issue has nothing
To me the issue has nothing
To me the issue has nothing to do with loyalty to Rodriguez. It has everything to do with loyalty to the HC at the university I love. I think you've completely missed that point.
As I said below, the problem here is there is almost no evidence of anything. Unfortunately for Lloyd, we have a player more or less on record reporting on a conversation he, Lloyd, would probably have preferred be left private.
Finally, you certainly trotted out an array of damning statistics to show that RR is less worthy of your support than Lloyd. Here's my question: what if RR wins a couple of Big 10 titles and maybe a NC over the next 5 years. Will that make him more worthy of your defense in the face of people publicly trashing him? To me that doesn't make sense.
May 10th, 2010 at 3:04 PM |
Loyalty / Support
Loyalty / Support
I know this will sound ridiculous and cliched, but I am loyal and unwaveringly supporting of UM basketball, UM football, and the Detroit Tigers, in that order. The coach is part of that, and is important, but I'm not loyal to him just because he's the coach. I'm loyal to the school and to the team, not any particular individual. I've lost a ton of faith in Rodriguez, but I will be cheering as hard as possible and living and dying with every play come September 4th. I understand this probably isn't believable, but I hope Rich Rodriguez is a massive success at Michigan, because that means I will be back to cheering on winning football soon.
May 10th, 2010 at 3:10 PM |
I'm just saying you're coming
I'm just saying you're coming
I'm just saying you're coming off as the worst kind of bandwagoneer. You won't defend RR against the public pillorying he's experienced over the last 2 years because he hasn't won, and when he wins you'll be back on his side?
Maybe that's not what you mean, but that's what it sounds like.
May 10th, 2010 at 3:25 PM |
Fair enough
Fair enough
I can see how it would read that way. I really just mean to say that I just don't care that much about the coach. I'm about as far from bandwagon as possible (in my opinion at least). Maybe it's a simple way to look at it, but that's how I watch sports. It's his job to figure it out and win. I don't have the time or energy to worry about it that much. This is a results based industry, and his results are crap, so I'm not going to go out of my way to support him. That is entirely different than not supporting UM and the team, in my world at least.
May 10th, 2010 at 6:28 PM |
Do you feel oppressed in any way?
Do you feel oppressed in any way?
I mean, if you feel so strongly that your opinion is not welcome here, you know what to do, right?
If so many people on here are willing to jump on you for being a knee-jerk, anti-RR person, wouldn't that perhaps make you question your position a bit?
Look around you.
The informed M fans, the ones that come here to share informed opinions, the ones that follow M religiously, objectively and have a deep knowledge of football and the history of the program are the ones lined up against you and supporting RR.
Now look at who you are aligned with. Anti-RR people that come on and don't want to parse the information at hand and just want to yell UNACCEPTABLE and 'first sanctions ever' (with zero knowledge of the actual rules in question nor the ethos by which the investigation came about), who for whatever reason have had an anti-RR agenda since day 1.
So.......every one else is wrong?
I'm not saying that you should be a sheep and go with the majority opinion. I am saying that many times in my life I have been wrong. One of the strongest indicators to me that I was wrong was that I felt that everyone else in the world had a problem and not me. Well, I was wrong.
Are there some M fans practicing blind faith here? Surely, but the vast majority of those supporting RR here do so objectively and after careful consideration of the information in front of them.
At the end of the day, if you feel so put upon by expressing your anti-RR position here, quite simply...then don't. If you want to keep jousting with Windmills, then by all means Don Quixote, go ahead, but expect that you aren't going to sway many opinions and you will always have a large number of people responding to and refuting your posts. Don't act so surprised when it happens.
May 10th, 2010 at 10:59 PM |
Interesting
Interesting
First off the oppressed thing is really out of nowhere. Do I really come off like I feel oppressed? Do you really want this to be the kind of place where differing opinions are not welcome?
If so many people on here are willing to jump on you for being a knee-jerk, anti-RR person, wouldn't that perhaps make you question your position a bit?
Not really. I earn a living making quick decisions based on the information in front of me where real people's lives and bodily functions are at risk. Don't presume to know so much about me.
The informed M fans, the ones that come here to share informed opinions, the ones that follow M religiously, objectively and have a deep knowledge of football and the history of the program are the ones lined up against you and supporting RR.
I fit every category you listed. The fact that I come to a different conclusion does not make me wrong. To smugly believe you are so much more informed and so enlightened is comical. Brian Cook has a slant of his own. To think he is some sort of all knowing, unbiased source of information is nuts. I would equate it to going onto a Fox News or MSNBC chat room and thinking that Glenn Beck or Keith Olberman are unbiased sources. In reality, I'm a 31 year old with two engineering degrees from the U of M that has been obsessively following UM sports for as long as I can remember. Sound familiar?
If you want to keep jousting with Windmills, then by all means Don Quixote, go ahead, but expect that you aren't going to sway many opinions and you will always have a large number of people responding to and refuting your posts. Don't act so surprised when it happens.
I have absolutely no expectation of swaying any opinions. It's painfully obvious that opinions on this matter are about as entrenched as humanly possible. I don't think I've been surprised at all that I have gotten a ton of negs and bad responses. Anyone that actually cares about getting negs on this site needs to evaluate their lives. I think it's necessary to put out there the fact that everyone doesn't agree with Brian on this and everyone is not on board with the mgoblog company line.
I hope Michigan wins everytime they take the field and I hope RIch Rodriguez turns out to be an amazing success. But don't get indignant when people see a team losing two thirds of their games and getting hit with major NCAA violations and don't find it necessary to defend poor Rich Rodriguez who's had so much hardship unjustly put upon him.
May 10th, 2010 at 4:21 PM |
we differ in how we define loyal
we differ in how we define loyal
I would define it as some who support a coach/program despite results, not someone who only provide support when it is winning.
May 10th, 2010 at 4:29 PM |
Taken too far
Taken too far
Isn't that kind of loyalty essentially what Bill Ford has done for 50 years with the Lions? Loyalty is important, but My loyalty is to Michigan. I want RR to succeed because I want M to succeed. I wasn't loyal to Brian Ellerbe after it became clear he was not good for the M Basketball program.
May 10th, 2010 at 6:31 PM |
true
true
but he also did not have a large group of fans dead set against him from day 1 because of his ?, and was given a fair shot at making it work.
I believe RR should be given that shot and I don't believe that is happening.
May 10th, 2010 at 7:07 PM |
Beautiful
Beautiful
"I'm loyal to my teams, but only support their players and coaches while they perform well."
Um . . . ?
May 10th, 2010 at 10:35 PM |
Reading Comprehension
Reading Comprehension
I'd encourage you to read my post again and see if you got that right. I think you missed it there. Also, as was pointed out above, quotation marks are reserved for actual text that someone wrote or words someone said verbatim. Congrats on the zinger and your well earned mgopoints, don't worry that your comment was false.
May 10th, 2010 at 3:00 PM |
Two versus one
Two versus one
Brandon Graham and Morgan Trent have the exact same level of credibility when it comes to analyzing Rodriguez's program
No. Graham spent two seasons playing for Rodriguez, Trent only one. So they're not "the exact same level."
May 10th, 2010 at 3:07 PM |
It's going to be fun to copy
It's going to be fun to copy
It's going to be fun to copy and paste your comments after every Michigan win this year. Patience, just patience.
May 10th, 2010 at 3:07 PM |
If you are attempting to have
If you are attempting to have
If you are attempting to have your argument accepted, perhaps in your "numbers comparison" you should include the numbers that point to the understanding that RR was wildly successful at WVU, defeating a heavily favored Georgia team when Pat White was a mere freshman in 2005, taking his WVU team to the #2 ranking in 2007, winning his conference three times, and became so successful that Urban Meyer, Chip Kelly, Mack Brown and Jim Tressell all came to study his offense.
Yes, just keep ignoring that, because your opinions have blinded you.
Those who are supporting Rich actually have a track record to point to. I love Lloyd Carr, I hope I have lived the life of character that he has when I am in my 60's, but you are incredibly myopic if you attempt to make comparisons the way you just did.
May 10th, 2010 at 3:09 PM |
Your numbers are what
Your numbers are what
is stupider than blind loyalty to RR. Please tell me that you didn't graduate from Michigan!
Note, now that is out of the way...
The point is really, really simple. Morgan Trent gains nothing by publicaly bashing RR and therefore Michigan. If he had/ has an issue with RR, why not be a man and talk to him face to face (or even talk to the AD)?
The only winner in this situation is Carr, and he wins by everybody saying, "oh no. Maybe we were wrong about Carr and I miss him." Michigan as a program is a big loser. RR is a loser in this and so is Trent.
That is why something smells rotten here.
"They're stuck with that quarterback (sophomore Braxton Miller) for the next two or three years, that's fine with me. He throws worse than (Tim) Tebow. - Steve Everitt
May 10th, 2010 at 3:41 PM |
I'll try to defend you
I'll try to defend you
Though I don't wholey agree with you, and your stats are somewhat biased. RR may not be a success at Michigan. I think he will be a success again, perhaps not with Michigan, but I do believe he is a good coach and will find success some where if he doesn't at Michigan this year.
The point I agree with you on are the blind loyalty to RR has gotten a bit much. People are ignoring that violations still occurred. That bugs me. I'm not saying other schools don't do it, but it bugs me that people just brush it off as 10 minutes of stretching. I don't agree with the rule, but it is there and it was broken. It is not as heinous as the free press said it was, and I hate the free press because I think their integrity is nonexistent and that they are pushing biased assumptions as facts that just are not so in order to sell more papers. I think we have to look at it unbiased though (which to some people's credit is the case).
As a fan base at large we are divided. RR supporters are throwing any old regime under the bus entirely. Old regime is throwing RR under the bus. Why? Blind loyalty, no matter who for, is still blind loyalty. Both sides are filtering for the sake of their arguments, and neither is looking at the whole picture. Carr was a great coach. RR has been a great coach and hopefully will be for Michigan. If he isn't, he probably will be at another school. Sometimes, though, it doesn't work out, which may be the case with Michigan and RR. I wait for next year and the year after to decide if RR has succeeded at Michigan, until then I plan on looking at both sides, and with all my passion root for Michigan
May 10th, 2010 at 4:29 PM |
I agree with you
I agree with you
some minor infractions occured, we change how we track/attribute and move on, they just don't bother me that much. It wasn't a conscious, protracted, deliberate flouting of easily interpreted rules that in any way harmed a player or provided a material advantage to M.
RR supporters are not the people fixated on them as a major issue. It is the anti-RR faction that trots them out as some sort of felonious offense each and every opportunity they get.
If you think there were never any oversights in any other coaching administration at Michigan, then I would suggest you live in a fantasy world where M football has always been perfect and only under RR has become imperfect. Thje difference is, previous administrations did not have insiders selling them out and helping to focus a microscope on the program in order to besmirch it.
May 10th, 2010 at 3:48 PM |
It is naive to think that
It is naive to think that
It is naive to think that some of those accusations of violations didn't go on previously before RR even stepped foot on campus, especially anything Quality Control coach related violations. They answer to the compliance department, not the football staff. The comliance department also probably should have mentioned before it was a year to late that their policy for tracking hours involves filling out a CARA form too. Rich should have known better about a lot of things, but anything Quality Control related, he was just carrying on what practices and policies that were set before him because those guys answer to the Athletic Department, not him. You are kidding yourself if you think if anyone would have sent a come on down type of invitation to the NCAA to come in and look around that they would have came away unscathed regardless of regime.
May 10th, 2010 at 5:30 PM |
I'm avoiding this witch hunt
I'm avoiding this witch hunt
But this one is just not true. The Quality Control Coaches were all Rich Rod hires, and Rich Rod guys. Not carryovers. And he had way more of them (different titles and all) than we had before. They were not University hires foisted upon Rich.
"I love him, he's a great coach, he's a great mentor, he's a great friend. He's every single thing you want a college coach to be, and he does it flawlessly." -David Molk
May 10th, 2010 at 3:54 PM |
"Blind loyalty"?
"Blind loyalty"?
1. Rich Rodriguez stepped up, and denied the story.
2. Lloyd Carr is apparently, without other explanation, "declining comment."
My loyalty isn't blind. It is just real loyalty. What brand of "loyalty" does Carr subscribe to?
May 10th, 2010 at 4:06 PM |
Also, if I remember
Also, if I remember
Also, if I remember correctly, didn't Lloyd Carr sit with the Iowa coaches during our game against them? I'm not saying that this has any relevant impact to the Trent situation, but what message does that send to Coach Rodriguez? And remember, that Iowa game was when we had only one loss, so by no means did the "we are horrible" excuse exist at that point.
All I ask is that Lloyd traditionalists stop looking at the past so nostalgically ("everything was great...the program was never crticized by former players...we were so awesome...we never had character issuses on our teams...we never lost to teams that we shouldn't have...").
Yes, there is a way that this thread could have been avoided; indeed, obliterated and obviated.
That would have been for Lloyd Carr to call up Mark Snyder (or, much better, Angelique Chengelis) and say, "Meet me at Schembechler Hall for an interview this afternoon. I will refute the story."
Carr's inaction is his culpability.