Exit Ricky Doyle
[Eric Upchurch]
Ricky Doyle is out:
ANN ARBOR, Mich. -- University of Michigan men's basketball head coach John Beileinannounced today (Tuesday, March 29) sophomore forward Ricky Doyle requested and was granted his release from the University and plans to transfer for his final two seasons of eligibility.
"Ricky is a tremendous young man with very high character and plenty of potential to develop into being a fine college player," said Beilein. "We have enjoyed coaching him over the past two years and wish him nothing but the best."
After a promising freshman year Doyle's game and minutes evaporated as a sophomore. With Mark Donnal ahead of him on the depth chart and Mo Wagner coming on late plus two post recruits incoming, the writing was on the wall. Michigan is no longer over their scholarship limit for next year.
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It seems like he would fit better in a different system. But I always liked the Big Dripper and wish him well. I especially hope he gets his sleep problems straightened out.
I wish him nothing but the best and hope he finds a good landing spot. I don't think that his problems here had anything to do with the system Beilein runs. In fact, I think the defensive philosophy suited him very well. I think Doyle's issues with catchng the ball were his biggest problem. His teammates seemed reluctant to feed him the ball later in the season. The same offense looked different with Donnal on the floor and I think that was why.
that it didn't quite work out for him at Michigan, but the team seems to be in much better shape now
Best of luck to Ricky.
I guess I'm in the minority here but I really didn't see all the promise people are talking about during his freshman year. He's not a shot blocker, lacks athleticism, he's a poor rebounder, and as we all know has poor hands. I thought he had a few nice post ups every now and then that would flash some of his talent, but I just never saw the fit here. Hopefully he goes somewhere that will play to his strenghts more.
do you ever have a nice thing to say about the basketball team?
Call the whambulance.
Call the whambulance.
Strange. I thought this was a place for discussing opinions.
are you related to MaizeHaze aka MaizeHater?
Nope! haha
Nobody like to see posters say negative things about these kids on a pesonal level. But jeezus, can't we critique their ability to play elite basketball?
Ricky will be fine in life and is more skilled at basketball than 99% of posters here ( I am assuming some ex D1 guys are on the board sometimes). But he was not a good big ten center. IMO, yes my opinion which carries equal weight to most of you, he was not going to get significantly better and his playing time would go way down.
Shouldn't this board be more outraged at Beilein for apparently "cutting" a kid than posters who critique a division one basketball player? We don't know for sure what happened, but I bet MAAR or Irvin does not transfer....
Is that MaizeHaze critiqued a player. I think the issue is that MaizeHaze finds a way to be "MaizeHater" in every single basketball thread. It seems he is incapable of saying anything good about the basketball program, and inexplicably shows up when there is something that can be even perceived as bad and goes away when something good happens.
That's my take on this anyway.
My take is that for the last two years there hasn't been much to cheer about with regards to the basketball program and any criticism I've laid out is completely valid. If you want me to put on a skirt and pick up some pom poms then you're going to be waiting a long ass time. I'm not going to put lipstick on a pig and if that bothers you, best to just not read my posts from now on.
I want nothing more than for the basketball program to succeed. Please don't call my fan hood into the question again, because frankly I don't have to answer to you or anyone else on this blog.
Is that there are things to be critical about and there are things to be positive about and there are a lot of things in the middle. The fact that you choose to only partake in the negative is a valid criticism of your posts. The fact that over half of your basketball posts contain swear words, and the fact that you many of your posts can be summed up as...
isn't the same as claiming you need to be a sunshine blower. I just find it funny that, for instance, after the Indiana game, you said absolutely nothing. But after the ND game, you were all about throwing about criticisms and cuss words and out of context criticisms. You may be a fan of Michigan basketball, but you are very clearly against Beilein and frankly the degree of which you are vehemently against him is annoying.
That's my point.
there are a few other just like him. they are cockroaches. they venture out at nite (when UM loses) but are nowhere to be found when it's light (winning).
Well good thing I really DGAF what you think. I'm going to keep posting what I want. Sorry if that bothers you. Guess you'll just have to fucking live with it.
The irony here is that you're treating me the same way you're claiming I'm treating the basketball team. We call people like you hypocrites.
Just do me a favor and ignore my posts from now on. Don't you have some amatuer football breakdowns to get back to anyways? LMAO.
But he's also the only big who wasn't easily pushed around. He played physical, he played tough, and he wasn't afraid to bang. I saw him as Graham Brown with more offensive upside. Michigan can use a guy like that.
Doyle was our only big who could actually bang. He seems like a guy who could develop into at least a good back-up center to provide energy and power.
He showed flashes of understanding the pick and roll, but the hands issue really held him back.
Best of luck to him. He seems like a very solid young man.
of player he was recruited to be. He wasn't bad for a freshman pressed into a big role too soon. With normal development, he could have become a very good college player. Unfortunately he came down with various physical issues right off the bat. If he can overcome them, he can still have a good college career. The transfer year off should help.
I'd honestly be more worried by Doyle transferring to Indiana to haunt Michigan than Spike, just because he will still be playing in 2019.
It's funny to me that everyone was SURE Doyle was better than Donnal 4 months ago and would have been glad to see Donnal transfer before the start of the year. Now the roles have changed, but everyone (i.e., not EVERYONE but a lot of people) are totally confident with the same opinion. Nothing prevents Doyle from making the same leap Donnal made as a junior or making big strides forward around the same timeline that Morgan, Bielfeldt, and Horford made.
Doyle can be an impact player in the long-run but in short-term Michigan will miss having his presense, even for 10 minutes per game, unless Davis and/or Teske can step in quickly.
because everyone should be at their peak and don't improve beyond their soph season. so idiotic. stupid posters only have to look at msu the past 10 years. they would have zero success had their players left after their junior seasons, let alone their soph seasons. they need a reality check.
hell, even on the worst BIG teams, it's probably difficult to find any bad players with 3+ years of starting experience.
after his sophomore year. Many did.
Now he's your starting center.
Eh... I'm afraid that is a bit of a "top turd on the dungpile" sort of distinction.
Look, I get that our centers sucked this year, but you have to look at Beilein's history of player development and cut the underclassmen some slack. When the team has a capable starter, when the kids that need to red-shirt do, it's easy to be patient. But these circumstances don't really change the reality for the individual kids. They still need time, even if you/me/we are dissatisifed with the starter's play.
Morgan was pretty crappy when he was a sophomore and downright terrific as a 5th year senior. Bielfeldt was a critical rotation player and 6th man of the year type his 5th year and flat-out unplayable as a sophomore. Donnal looks like a serviceable Big Ten starting center as a junior after being unplayable as a sophomore - ditto for Jon Horford.
People get better.
as a sophomore and ended up POY as a senior. Bigs often develope slowly. Why don't people get that? How many more examples do they need to see?
Doyle was ahead of Wagner for the bulk of this season and was ahead of Donnal for all of last year. He's also a year younger than Donnal. Donnal surged ahead of him, but nothing prevents Doyle from surging back next year. Well, except that he transferred - but if these two go toe-to-toe in the tournament the season after next, Doyle could easily be the better player.
Doyle's not undersized by the standards of a Michigan center (he isn't a long-armed shot-blocker but he is thick and strong). He was our biggest guy.
Wagner looked lost half the time too, and he didn't have the sleep issues as an excuse for it.
Moot point now, but this team is going to lack the physicality that Doyle offered. I don't think it's a enormous loss (Doyle never showed an ability to rebound and had obvious limitations otherwise) and I like the ceiling of Wagner and our freshman a lot more than Doyle's ceiling. But to ignore the fact that Doyle could improve is pretty nuts when you have so many examples in recent Michigan history of big guys improving in starts and fits.
March 30th, 2016 at 10:14 AM ^
Look, I get that our centers sucked this year, but you have to look at Beilein's history of player development and cut the underclassmen some slack.
That is exactly what I'm looking at.
Beilein has basically never had a 5 that was more than serviceable outside of Pittsnogle... and he wasn't really a 5, but a strtch 5 - he didn't rebound or block shots.
...and he really didn't seem to get a lot better during his time at WVU, just increased usage his senior year:
FR: 11.6 pts/4.8 reb/1.3 blks (17.4/7.2/2 per 40)
SO: 10.2 pts/3.7 reb/0.5 blks (18/6.5/0.9)
JR: 11.9 pts/3.7 reb/0.5 blk (24.7/7.7/1)
SR: 19.3 pts/5.5 reb/1.2 blk (21.4/6.1/1.3)
He basically became a slightly better 3 point shooter in his 4 years. His rebounding and block numbers per 40 are basically unchanged to worse.
Morgan was pretty crappy when he was a sophomore and downright terrific as a 5th year senior.
Sophmore Jordan Morgan:
12 pts/ 9.2 reb/ 0.4 blk per 40
Senior Jordan Morgan:
12.7 pts/ 10.0 reb/ 0.9 blk per 40
Morgan was a more consistent shooter as a senior, and turned the ball over about 0.5 times less per game... while fouling significantly more.
Sophomore Morgan wasn't crappy, and senior Morgan was a LONG way from downright5 terrific.
Donnal looks like a serviceable Big Ten starting center as a junior after being unplayable as a sophomore.
Donnal looked like a bottom quarter of the B1G center that you start because you have to as a junior.
People get better.
He'll almost certainly improve - but I don't have hopes beyond his progressing to "mediocre"
March 30th, 2016 at 12:14 PM ^
But Morgan did improve significantly on D (as the block % indicates) and bumped up his FG% 63% to 70%. He went from getting pushed around to doing the pushing, improved his transition offense (very underrated trait for him), and played within his limitations. With a guy like that who is essentially a role player, the numbers don't tell the full story.
Agree that Donnal is going to be mediocre at best, but that doesn't change what a massive improvement we saw this season compared to last. It's very similar to what we saw from Bielfeldt and Horford too. These guys may not be Mitch McGary talents (and Beilein can be blamed for mediocre recruiting) but he HAS developed his bigs and gotten major improvement from them.
It think your gripe is more about the overall talent than the development of it.
March 30th, 2016 at 12:25 PM ^
"With a guy like that who is essentially a role player,"
"....downright terrific as a 5th year senior."
There seems to be a LOT of cognitive dissonance going on for you.
Was Morgan essentially a role player, or was he "downright terrific"?
Those are two things that aren't even the same sport, much less in the same ball park.
but he HAS developed his bigs and gotten major improvement from them.
Who?
Looking at the entirety of Beileins career - I don't 5's with "major improvement". I see guys get better in a fashion that happens to the majority of players as they age, regardless of coach. Minor, incremental improvements.
I'm not saying Beilein makes guys worse - I just see no evidence that he improves players at the 5 position at a rate any different from 100 other coaches in college basketball.
Do you think that at any point during Beilein's Michigan career he will have an ALL B1G or All American 5?
Morgan was downright terrific at his role. My definition of being a role player is not intended to be pejorative. DeAndre Jordan (max contract on a contender) and Tyson Chandler (key cog on a championship team) are role players. GR3 was a role player. Stauskas was a role player his freshman year. etc.
Who? Donnal. He was atrocious last year and ended up barely playing last year, in favor of Bielfeldt (a 6'6 C) and Doyle (an out-of-shape, limited skill, true freshman). This year he had his ups and downs but put up 25+ points against Maryland and Illinois. That's a MASSIVE improvement.
Who else? Bielfeldt and Horford. 2-star recruits who were unplayable as sophomores, solid backups as seniors, and good enough to transfer to Indiana and Florida to play key roles as 5th years.
Morgan was downright terrific at his role. My definition of being a role player is not intended to be pejorative.
I don't think being a role player is perjorative. It just means you aren't downright terrific.
In fact - most starters for most teams aren't "downright terrific".
Who? Donnal....That's a MASSIVE improvement.
2015 Donnal: 12.8 pts/8 reb/1.3 blk per 40 min
2016 Donnal: 16.1 pts/7.6 reb/1.5 blk per 40 min
Per 100 posessions:
2015 Donnal: 123.8 Offensive Rating, 103.9 Defensive Rating
2016 Donnal: 124.5 Offensive Rating, 103.6 Defensive Rating
Scored a little more, rebounded a little worse, fouled more... I just don't see anything I'd call "massive improvement".
I think looking at per 40 minute stats isn't real instructive in this context. Donnal got most of his production early in the year against inferior competition and off the bench garbage time in 2015. In 2016 he was a starter. Towit, he went from 140 to 456 minutes in Big 10 play. The in conference per 40 are far different (big improvement). You have to consider that Donnal was going against mostly scrubs last year and this year facing Diamond Stone, AJ Hammons, and Thomas Bryant and their ilk. Maintaining per 40 numbers when the level of difficulty ramps up that much is improvement.*
Some of the minutes gained are about Bielfeldt leaving, but he also took time AWAY from Doyle (whose per 40s are almost identical to last year despite all the talk about regression). He got more playing time because he was playing better.
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There are downright terrific specialists. Stauskas was an example his freshman year. Larry Brown's 76ers and Rick Carslile's Mavs made the finals by deploying a whole bunch of them around scoring stars (Iverson/Nowitzki) who themselves could be considered 'role players' in the sense that they aren't real good at much besides scoring. [That's unfair to Nowitzki who spaces the floor even if he doesn't touch the ball, but AI was only good if he had the ball and required certain complementary players around him to win.]
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*Same goes for Irvin. His efficiency should be expected to go down as his minutes, defensive role, offensive role, and defensive attention from opponents increased dramatically. Irvin's getting SEVERELY underated by M fans right now. He was the best player on a tournament team. Swap him 2016 Irvin in for 2014 Stauskas and that team takes a step back, but we're still talking about a Big Ten title contender with a lineup full of NBA talent. Irvin deserves more help - I think he'll get it next year.
"Donnal got most of his production early in the year against inferior competition and off the bench garbage time in 2015. In 2016 he was a starter."
Lets look at only in-conference stats then (per 40):
2014: 9.1 points / 9.4 reb / 1.1 blk
2015: 16.7 points/ 7.9 reb / 1.6 blk
Seems to follow the Beilein path - getting better at scoring, getting worse at rebounding. He's definitely a BETTER player... but I can't call that "dramatic improvement"
"There are downright terrific specialists."
I disagree.
Probably not All American. That's lofty status that even Mitch McGary would have had a hard time reaching had he stuck around for 4 years.
All Conference? Yes. McGary could have gotten there. Horford would have had an outside chance at it had he stuck around for his 5th year. (Because he was a bench player few realize he had an elite defensive rebounding rate in addition to being a very good shot-blocker.) A version of Morgan with 20% more talent or arms 2 inches longer could have been there his 5th year too. It's in play.
Beilein doesn't need his Cs to drain mid-range jumpers or 3s - he needs them to be like Morgan (set screens, hustle, play tough defense, roll to the rim off the pick and roll). There's zero reason to not put a 6'10 or bigger shot blocker at his center spot. A guy who can, yes move his feet, but also block shots and actually dunk the damn ball off all the easy pick and roll feeds this offense generates.
I think Teske is a game-changer for Michigan. Once Beilein proves he can have a successful 7' shot-blocker in his system he will be able to recruit more of them.
I think Teske and Davis reflect that Beilein has learned from his mistakes in recruiting centers. With Davis (a big guy who, if nothing else, can set screens and throw down dunks) and Teske (the highest upside true C Beilein's ever recruited IMO) in the same class, I think Beilein has changed his approach. Both have legit size for Cs. Beilein has been recruiting way too many 4/5 tweeners (e.g., Bielfeldt, Donnal, Wilson, Smotrycz, Wagner) - favoring skill over size. I don't think those guys are going to disappear from the roster, but you can't allocate scholarships to a lot of true 5s if you aren't taking from somewhere.
IMO recruiting too many undersized 5s is the biggest mistake Beilein has been making. He needs to get more conventional in his C recruiting. He's not at a mid-major or WVU anymore. He can recruit legit Cs. If Davis/Teske are successful and if McGary has success in the NBA, it'll serve as a bridge to better talent.
"All Conference? Yes. McGary could have gotten there. Horford would have had an outside chance at it had he stuck around for his 5th year."
McGary COULD have gotten there.
Horford would never have been All B1G (and I only count the 1st team).
Beilein doesn't need his Cs to drain mid-range jumpers or 3s - he needs them to be like Morgan (set screens, hustle, play tough defense, roll to the rim off the pick and roll).
Yet he keeps recruiting 5's to drain mid-range jumpers or 3s - that aren't very good at all those other things.
He keeps trying to recruit Kevin Pittsnogle, when he needs to recruit Dennis Rodman.
I think Teske is a game-changer for Michigan.
I think that is delusional. He's another super skinny 7' guy who is working on improving his 3 point shooting. He blocks shots and rebounds against low level HS competition, but just doesn't look very athletic at all.
His defense and shot blocking were very good. His rebounding was nationally elite. He wasn't a great offensive player but the Michigan offense creates a lot of easy looks for it's Cs (see Donnal against Maryland and Illinois). Had Horford returned for year 5 he would have gotten 30+ mpg, which means he would have put up some pretty impressive per game numbers.
He wasn't going to be first team with Kaminsky around, but I think he would have put up comparable numbers to AJ Hammons (2nd team): 12 ppg/7rbpg/3bpg. More rebounds, less blocks, on a better team.
His defense and shot blocking were very good.
His peak shot blocking rate was 3.3/100 possessions.
All of the following had better block rates in the B1G the same year
AJ Hammons
Nnanna Egwu
Elliott Eliason
Alex Olah
Amir Williams
Frank Kaminsky
Donovon Jack
Matt Costello
Jordan Dickerson
Gabriel Olaseni
Melsahn Basabe
Luke Fischer
He wasn't top 10 in the B1G in block percentage. He wasn't top 10 in the B1G in defensive win shares. He wasn't top 10 in the B1G defensive rating.
His rebounding was nationally elite.
We must have a very different definition of "nationally elite"
He was not in the top 20 nationally in Offensive Rebounds, Defensive Rebounds, Total Rebounds, Offensive Rebounds per game, Defensive Rebounds per game, Total Rebounds per game, Offensive Rebound Percentage, Defensive Rebound Percentage, or Total Rebound percentage.
but I think he would have put up comparable numbers to AJ Hammons
Hammons worst year was 17.3 points/40
Horfords best year (at Florida) was 12.9 points/40
Hammons worst year was 10.4 rebounds/40
Horfords best year(SO) was 13.2 rebounds/40, as a 5th year senior he was at 9.6/40
Hammons worst year was 3.4 blocks/40
Horfords best year(SO) was 3.7 blocks/40, as a 5th year senior he was at 1.7/40
A 5th year Horford would have been 2014-15.
That year Hammons put up (per 40): 19.6 points, 10.9 rebounds, 4.6 blocks
You really think a 5th year Horford puts up those numbers?
Ben Cronin?
Michigan's never had a true center who could block shots. Horford was the closest thing and he came in skinnier than anyone (6'9/185 per Rivals). Morgan and McGary were PFs to a lot of programs.
Davis is playing against real low-level competition but Teske's in a respectable league and faces far less transition. His limitations will be physical, but it's not like Donnal or Wagner or physical forces either. I fully admit that it may take Davis and Teske 2 or 3 years to get up to speed (that's Beilein's track record - you have to be patient with his bigs) but at least the FIT is finally right.
Beilein is finally recruiting Cs whose skills actually seem to fit the (pick and roll heavy) system his team has evolved to. It doesn't make any sense to NOT have a shot-blocker back there given the consistently poor perimeter D.
That all said -- yeah, I would still like it if he picked up a few guys who were more physical and athletic. He should be able to do that at Michigan without a problem. More Morgan, less Smotrycz.
He really could have had a Morgan type of career. Doyle wasn't afraid to play physical, and you could see the potential as a defender even if he still didn't totally understand how to position himself (that better understanding of positioning could have made him a very good below-the-basket rebounder). He was a bigger, stronger 5 than the others that really could have played a role going forward for Beilein, especially if he could have improved his hands enough to be a consistent threat on the pick and roll (it always seemed like he was able to get open on those, he just couldn't catch the ball).
I also thought it was very noticeable how much his "hustle" decreased as what apparently was his sleep apnea became worse. He didn't really understand a lot of what to do as a freshman, but he always hustled and put in the work. If he can learn to live and function with his sleep apnea better, and maybe he can do that closer to home, then I still think he has potential to be a solid big for someone.
Good luck going forward.
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