Another Endzone Exceprt (this time on ESPN)
This one is probably not as enraging as the post-Minnesota debacle but also pretty bad.
Money quote from Todd Anson (Harbaugh confidant and sometimes advisor): "I used to think Dave [Brandon] was deceitful. My take now is that he was inept."
August 25th, 2015 at 9:50 AM ^
Steven Threet was a totally legitimate P5 level starting QB who left the program primarily because of the offense, and he would have been there to back up Mallett, the 5 star future NFL guy. Tell me again about this awful QB recruiting...
Carr's biggest recruiting sin, if you want to call it that, was not recruiting anybody perfect for a zone blocking spread option offense, which no shit.
August 24th, 2015 at 11:45 AM ^
Brandon Graham, Brandon Minor, Donovan Warren, Ryan Mallett, Mike Martin(he was committed when RR was hired) Ryan Van Bergan, Greg Matthews,Junior Hemingway...to name a few off the top of my head. That's pretty good if you ask me.
Saying that he "nuked" Rich Rod conveniently overlooks that it wasn't just Carr who disliked RR. Quite a few "Michigan Men" didn't. He was just one of the many Brutuses lingering around the imperial throne.RR's inability to field a defense and special teams didn't help matters either. RR played a significant role in the "nuking" of his program.
The ineptitude of his coaching tree is hardly his fault. The fact is that Lloyd achieved something Bo could not--a national title. He also won 5 Big Ten titles, produced a Heisman winner, and did okay vs UM's rivals untril Tressell came along.
I also know that his players love him and most who have met him like him. Calling the man an "asshole" seems a bit harsh.
August 24th, 2015 at 12:07 PM ^
August 24th, 2015 at 12:22 PM ^
Well, it's a need to have if you want to be allowed to name your successor and you shouldn't hold a grudge against your school for not being allowed to do so if you didn't make it a priority.
August 24th, 2015 at 12:37 PM ^
Because together they won a lot of games, a national title, and 5 Big Ten titles. What they do after they leave is on them, not Carr.
August 24th, 2015 at 1:57 PM ^
August 24th, 2015 at 6:05 PM ^
Coming back to this thread late, but yes, that was my point. I was focusing more on the quote about Carr in the ESPN exerpt (he supported hiring Hoke instead of Harbaugh) and how that's been indicitive of him generally not helping the department out at all after his coaching career.
Also, people may be looking back on Carr's coaching career with rosy glasses. He was a great coach early on his time, but by the end, he was entering Mack Brown territory where people were wondering how much longer he was going to coach and how do you delicately part ways with a former great coach. To me, after the 1997 season he consistently underachived while he was at Michigan.
August 24th, 2015 at 9:41 PM ^
I agree.....given the leve of NFL talent he had on his teams, he really did underachieve. Especially against the cream of the crop teams out there. Always seemed to pucker at the worst moments and it always came back to bite him. The ONLY time he didn't do that was the Capital One bowl in 2008 - I dream of what he could have accomplished in 2007 had he implemented that offensive scheme.
August 24th, 2015 at 2:21 PM ^
before Moeller got unfairly fired and someone went and screwed someone's someone, whereupon things went south.
The thing is that coaches have to inspire people, as well as be great tactitians, planners, and delegators. Carr could handle all of those pretty good--his players loved him. Harbaugh is of the tree, and RR actually had some nice bona fides through Don Nehlen. Brandon is clearly the problem, not the tree.
BTW, how many of the above prerequites did Brady Hoke fill? Guy could certainly delegate well. . .
August 25th, 2015 at 10:10 AM ^
in what way is coaching tree his fault? Did he know that Mike DeBord was going to flame out at CMU? That Hoke was going to be a walking mediocrity? That nobody was going to offer Herrmann a job? Bo's coaching tree isn't really all that spectacular either, fwiw, he produced a lot of head coaches but only Les, Lloyd, Moeller, McCartney and Larry Smith ever accomplished anything much of note. And of those, McCartney and Smith ran extremely dirty ships and even Les has his detractors.
August 24th, 2015 at 12:13 PM ^
Those were mostly Lloyd players that were saying all this stuff. Bo and Moeller's players were typically more supportive. The only thing I wish Lloyd would have done would have been to talk to his former players and remind them of putting team first. That's it. No need for press conferences. No need for selfies with RR.
I agree the coaching tree stuff is not important. I think it just looks bad in comparison to Bo's tree which is incredible. Does Saban have a coaching tree? What does that look like?
August 24th, 2015 at 1:05 PM ^
I thought you had to get your college coaching start under the guy to be in their tree. Dantonio was coaching under Tressel long before he got to MSU. And Jimbo was at Auburn for 5-6 years.
But looking at that link makes me wonder what would've happened in Hoke and Terry Malone would've been hired on at an SEC or Big 12 school. Or what if Stan Parrish would've been a HC in the ACC or Big East. I have to believe there were openings they could've at least had their agent call about.
August 25th, 2015 at 10:12 AM ^
A coaching tree means whatever you want it to mean, but in it's most basic form it just implies that a coach worked under another coach. Coaching influences come in all sorts of ways and it's not hard to see how Dantonio was influenced by Saban AND Tressel, for example.
August 24th, 2015 at 12:49 PM ^
When Bo was hired, a lot of the "Michigan family" didn't like him, either. But former coach Bump Elliott told players and boosters who complained that he didn't want to hear it. Carr, OTOH, encouraged players to transfer and his minions told HS coaches not to send their players to Michigan. Then, he was not in favor of Harbaugh being hired.
If Carr had shown the class that Bump Elliott showed, the last seven years of shit would never have happened. Instead, he became petty and vindictive in his quest to "name his successor."
David Brandon is responsible for five of the last seven years, but Carr is responsible for the first two and for starting downhill slide of the program. To me, it's sad. I can't even enjoy seeing Carr speak about the 1997 season anymore becasue I remember how he tore down the program in the name of his ego.
Hopefully, Harbaugh can get the program back to where it would have been all along if Carr and Brandon hadn't ruined it.
August 24th, 2015 at 1:01 PM ^
Blaming Carr alone is utter nonsense.You attempt at whitewashing from history all others contributions to the mess that was the RichRod appalls me. Carr's backbiting did not cause RR to field horrendous defenses or special teams--two of the greatest factors in RR's downfall. Nor did it cause him to go 0-6 vs MSU and OSU.
Rich Rodriguez had displayed a pattern of poor decisionmaking with how he left West Virginia and the land deal that nearly bankrupted him. In light of this it seems absurd to not at least ascribe some portion of the fault to Rich Rodriguez.
To say that Carr "ruined" the program is complete and utter bullshit. It is the grossest of calumnies.
He wasn't in favor of hiring in 2011 which I can understand considering the comments Harbaugh made.
August 24th, 2015 at 1:13 PM ^
Shit like that happens all the time. I know this is a no-politics site, but Donald Trump had The Apprentice and other crap before his political forays and that dude filed for bankruptcy.
When you're in the public eye, you make good decisions and bad decisions. Carr made his, RR made his. That goes for off and on the field.
If the program truly is/was ruined though, everyone had a hand in it and no one is blameless.
August 24th, 2015 at 2:06 PM ^
I'm not bashing him for it. People make mistakes. Lord knows I have. But it is relevant when dicussiing the coaches decisionmaking.
August 24th, 2015 at 10:44 PM ^
and if it took 7 poor seasons it was well worth the wait for Harbaugh. I would not want RR or Hoke to become semi-successful and remain the HC for years. Neither RR or Hoke would win NC or turn us into a top program. Only Harbaugh is capable of returning Michigan to football greatness!
August 24th, 2015 at 12:50 PM ^
for his apparent efforts to sabotage RichRod after he was primarily responsible for bringing him to Michigan in the first place, if only to show the fan base how wrong it might be about the spread offense and its effectiveness.
You could never figure Lloyd. Who knows what his apparently conflicted motives were during that time? We can only guess. If Bacon really wanted to get to the bottom of Michigan's football disconnect with both methodology, practice and new trends and changing historical regimes, then he ought to do a book with Lloyd.
I mean we tend to forget here that this guy is in the college hall of fame, that he had one of the best winning percentages over a stretch of time, that he regularly beat Saban and chased him out of the state, that his regime helped produce two of the most gifted players to Michigan ever and they remain at the forefront of their profession today. When Lloyd coached, Michigan reigned in the shadow of its emperor whose office he retained in the building named after him out of respect and love for his coaching mentor.
Lloyd was a company man all the way who loved Michigan through and through just like everybody here. And like everyone here who is successful and reaches a certain pinnacle of success, he had an ego. And that ego burned strong just like his competitive fire and edge with the media.
People complain about the last days of Lloyd's regime, but Bo's death and Martin's failure to have a suitable replacement in place when Lloyd wanted to leave after the 2006 season, led to Three and Out, with the Horror and the phony stretchgate controversy, which, I also believe Lloyd henchmen helped engineer.
No, Lloyd is an interesting stoic figure who often gets short shrift because of how he was hired and his team's failure to win the big ones in his final games even as his highly talented and great recruiting efforts paved the way for a national title and some remarkable players and storylines. Michigan football during the Lloyd Carr era was a joy. And I don't care what anyone else says. Just the way I feel. He was a guy with flaws like us all but he was successful on his own terms. And his teams were tough, solid and fun to watch.
August 24th, 2015 at 1:40 PM ^
I agree with everything you wrote with one notable exception. When you state ....."even as his highly talented and great recruiting efforts paved the way for a national title and some remarkable players and storylines"
Most, if not virtually all, key players from 97 team were recruited by Gary Moeller, not Lloyd.
August 24th, 2015 at 1:50 PM ^
August 24th, 2015 at 2:14 PM ^
I hear what you're saying but if you take that position wouldnt that also mean they they were just as much Hoke's as Carr's?
He was on that staff too.
August 24th, 2015 at 2:21 PM ^
August 24th, 2015 at 2:45 PM ^
...Moeller had a helluva coaching staff.
August 24th, 2015 at 2:30 PM ^
Asshole isn't harsh at all, all you have to do is look at how he treated sideline reporters to see that is justifiable. He exhibited true asshole behavior. If he treats people well on his own terms in no way mitigates that he is an asshole when it is not on his terms.
August 24th, 2015 at 2:35 PM ^
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August 24th, 2015 at 11:52 AM ^
August 24th, 2015 at 12:02 PM ^
Harbaugh's presser? Or Bump at Bo's? Mo at Lloyd's?
August 24th, 2015 at 12:06 PM ^
August 24th, 2015 at 12:30 PM ^
It wasn't at his introductory presser, but Bump Elliot gave Bo a big public vote of confidence early in Bo's tenure when player attrition was at epidemic levels and a lot of the old guard was grumbling about the new guy in town. Bo recounted that story numerous times over the years and credited Bump for making his first year at Michigan a lot less rocky than it was going to be.
Lloyd was noticeably quiet during all the media furor around Rodriguez during his first season at Michigan. When the sharks started circling Rodriguez, Lloyd never stepped in and stood up for the guy in charge of Michigan football.
August 24th, 2015 at 12:34 PM ^
And I agree that Lloyd probably could have been a bit more supportive publically. But in the end I don't think it would have mattered. The results on the field were unacceptable, and no amount of cheerleading by Lloyd or anyone else would have changed that.
August 24th, 2015 at 1:18 PM ^
If RichRod really wanted Casteel for DC, I wonder how much it would've helped for Lloyd to weigh in to support the money and hire. I'm not saying Lloyd should've done that, but I mean he had some experience in switching defensive coordinators twice and seeing the difference it made (Mattison to Hermann and then Hermann to English).
Someone should've realized the great position they were in to have a long-time very successful head coach in Lloyd and another very successful coach in Rich Rod. That combination of expertise and wisdom should have made for a great transition and even stronger program.
August 24th, 2015 at 1:24 PM ^
that having Casteel wouldn't have made much of a difference. He probably would have won a few more games, but that defense wasn't going to work agasint MSU and OSU. The B1G isn't the Pac-12.
August 24th, 2015 at 1:30 PM ^
The Big Ten can't hold a candle to the Pac 12. It's been worse for 5 years now. Casteel would have been fine, his defenses have been in the top 30 in CFB pretty much every year he's been a DC.
August 24th, 2015 at 1:45 PM ^
for you to support out there.
August 24th, 2015 at 2:27 PM ^
All he's doing is rebutting your argument, and doing it well.
August 24th, 2015 at 2:56 PM ^
Don't cut it at Michigan. I'm used to ours being top 10 or better.
And I think OSU would like a word in regards to the supposed superiority of the Pac12. But we'll find out soon enough. Two Pac12 teams on the OOC schedule this year.
August 24th, 2015 at 11:09 PM ^
yeah, top 10 because in the past 10 years its been the shitty big 10 and directional schools, look at MSUs defense vs. good teams last year
August 24th, 2015 at 3:24 PM ^
"Winning a few more games" is all you need to go from "tire fire" to "an exciting program in a rebuilding phase".
There's nothing fundamentally wrong with a 3-3-5 defense. The whole "this scheme can't possibly work in the tough, manly Big Ten" attitude is part of what sunk RR (who wasn't MANBALL and got roasted for it) and Hoke (who was MANBALL but stunk at it). Heck, the B1G is moving more spread and we're playing a lot of nickel anyway. RR is a speed / offense first coach - his defenses just need to get enough stops to keep his offense in the game, and a well-run 3-3-5 can certainly do that.
August 24th, 2015 at 8:44 PM ^
August 25th, 2015 at 10:17 AM ^
and then Bump went to Iowa and voted against Michigan making the Rose Bowl because grandiose public statements aren't always totally honest.
August 24th, 2015 at 12:02 PM ^
And then what? Would we have suddenly fielded a competent defense? Did Carr force RichRod to run a 3-3-5 with DCs who didn't understand it?
I agree that Carr could have been more public in his support (although he really wasn't any moreso with Hoke, either - it's not his style), but that would have been a bandaid at most.
People really need to move forward.
August 24th, 2015 at 12:08 PM ^
that Lloyd Carr personally forced RR to hire those DC's? He also contacted all of Michigan's opponents and gave them copies of our playbook. I mean, how else do you explain fucking Illinois scoring 65 points against Michigan?
August 24th, 2015 at 1:17 PM ^
I don't know but how did you feel seeing LC hanging out in the IOWA HAWKEYE box when Michigan was playing them? That was a terrible look when you consider he had just retired and was still on the MICHIGAN payroll.
You think Bo would have done that against the former team he coached?
August 24th, 2015 at 1:26 PM ^
But I don't think it changed the results on the field one damn bit.
August 24th, 2015 at 1:44 PM ^
true, but it sent the message that he didn't care about the program or the coach and that allowed the sharks to come out in FULL FORCE. He added fuel to the fire instead of providing leadership and support. He could have helped the situation by calling for calm but he chose not too and here we are 7 years later.
August 24th, 2015 at 1:49 PM ^
how that really would have made all the much of a difference. The W/L record was what it was. And that first season doomed RR from the start. A lot of people, myself included, were just fucking horrified that we only won 3 games that year, especially when most respected analysts were predicting 8+ wins.
I think most of the anti-RR sentiment is that he was trying to fix something that wasn't broken. We needed to modernize the house and spruce it up a bit, but a full demo and reconstruction wasn't necessary.
August 24th, 2015 at 2:04 PM ^
August 24th, 2015 at 2:20 PM ^
apples to automobiles. If RR had won the Big 10 title in year one or two he would have had all the support in the world. If Harbaugh had won 3 games his first year in SF, and 5 in year two, he probably would have been fired.
RR didn't get more support because of that 1st year. I wanted him fired then, and so did a lot of other people. Even 6-6 would have bought him some time. Those 3 wins had people thinking "holy fuck, we've made a huge mistake".