OT: Columbus Blue Jackets goaltender Matiss Kivlenieks dies from fireworks accident in Novi, Mi
Terribly sad, but not all that surprising with how many deaths and serious injuries fireworks cause every year.
10.1.1so does yours that "veterans hate the 4th"
You're generalizing to high hell in this thread.
My neighbor served 7 years in Iraq, lost half his foot IED and lights off fireworks like crazy every 4th of July.
This topic seems to have brought the very best out of everyone. Lots of good ground covered. Well done! ?
Life is a risk.
You can die in a bathtub slip.
You eat an oyster and get wasting disease.
You attend a fireworks display and avoid a 3 car pileup that would have killed you.
Some activities have higher risks than others but does that mean we stop rock climbing, skiing, skydiving, scuba diving?
When those activities can infringe on the well-being of others, yes, those freedoms need to be taken away or reduced. That's how society works.
Think about others; it's not just about you.
OK, that is an excellent point.
However I might argue that driving impinges on the rights of others as well. Green house gasses, the risk I fall asleep and cause an accident, and so on. So let’s ban driving.
You might reply, “that is the thought of an idiot - there is a societal good that derives from driving, therefore, it is a net-net positive behavior in terms of any cost/benefit trade-off.” That’s why we should not ban cars and we should ban fireworks. The entire economy would collapse if we banned cars you dufus.
Again, excellent point.
I reply that there is a functional good to all sorts of things depending upon the values of the observer.
So who’s to say?
I am not saying that driving and fireworks are equivalent in terms of value. But on the very night that all the bad things happened to the fireworks attendees, I suspect that more people died in car accidents.
However I might argue that driving impinges on the rights of others as well. Green house gasses, the risk I fall asleep and cause an accident, and so on. So let’s ban driving.
No, let's heavily regulate driving. Make people take tests in order to get a driver's license. Pass thousands of road and vehicle safety regulations. Force people to wear safety belts. Do everything possible to stop drunk and high people from driving. Etc. etc. etc.
As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, comparing driving to lighting off bombs for entertainment is a pretty dumb comparison to make.
Thanks for calling my argument dumb. That makes me feel like slinking away from the discourse. Instead, since I am “dumb” I will slog on.
How many people died in the 365 days that driving was allowed in 2019? How many people died in fireworks accident that year?
The reason that I did not mention 2020 is that most people were driving significantly less than in 2019. The environment improved, the traffic deaths dropped, and less natural resources were consumed. By all accounts the economy survived.
Also, fireworks happen 1 time per year - if they happened every day then maybe get a license.
Driving happens every day. How many of those drives are essential versus trivial in purpose?
Maybe drive to go to a movie, go to a football game, go to a fireworks display. I see no difference in those trivial driving pursuits and fireworks.
Driving serves a purpose. And is a necessity. Amateur fireworks lit off by the neighborhood dipshit down the street have no discernible purpose. And there are so many downsides. Every town in America has a fireworks display, that's fine, we don't need people taking these senseless risks for no gain, other than some people want to do it.
I think you pretty much summarized where my thoughts are.
Driving is an important part of society. People have to get to work, people have to travel, etc. There is always an inherent risk when you get behind the wheel of a car and I fully embrace that, which is why I drive super carefully and I always have my head on a swivel, even when I'm just going down to the store. I accept the fact that I am behind a giant machine that can do great damage.
But the problem lies in the fact that fireworks serve really no societal benefit, other than super brief entertainment. The harm they can do potentially to the user, others around them, animals, and wildlife is very strong.
The most common argument I've seen in this discussion today is basically, "It's my right to set off fireworks." And if that's the best argument, I think changes need to be made. If I knew that fireworks were saving lives, making people live longer, or doing something positive for society other than an absolutely tiny moment of excitement, then I'd be on board.
But they don't. They are ultra-condensed, incredibly flammable objects in the hands of people who should not have them. You can buy them anywhere, so you sure as shit don't know how well they were made.
Sorry Leo, I have a smashed thumb, and submitted before I was done.
EDIT - smashed in an accident not by fireworks :)
I'm not going to jump into the full-on safety/freedom debate (which gets political quickly and is unlikely to change any minds on either side), but it is a little ironic for football fans to argue that others should not be at liberty to subject themselves to potential harm for our own relatively brief entertainment.
I don't mind drugs being legalized, like the only legal one, alcohol. But they do infringe on the well being of others when misused, or when someone on drugs operate a motorized vehicle. Would I say these freedoms need to be take away? That's not how society works. Soon you will end up with little or no freedoms.
Some activities have higher risks than others but does that mean we stop rock climbing, skiing, skydiving, scuba diving?
If you're killing and maiming innocent bystanders, starting forest fires, and burning down people's homes doing these activities...maybe you should reevaluate doing them, if not stop them altogether?
10.1.1Non sequitur, or did I miss something?
What aren't you understanding?
10.1.1Your logical flow.
I thought it was pretty self-explanatory? You compared fireworks to rock climbing, skiing, skydiving, and scuba diving. You asked if we should stop those activities because they have a high risk.
I mentioned how fireworks kill and maim innocent bystanders, start countless forest fires, and burn down many people's homes. None of the activities you mentioned carry those terrible risks. I said that if they did carry those risks, then maybe we should reevaluate doing those activities, or stop them altogether.
I hope this explains things clearly?
I don't think random bystanders get killed too often, it's usually the guy setting it off or someone apart of that group.
They should not be allowed in high fire danger areas, agreed.
Anybody that thinks they are not safe can simply stay home--that is 100% safe.
I don't think random bystanders get killed too often
Seems like the exact news story you are commenting on is this exact situation. Also, the group most killed and maimed by fireworks is 0-4-year-old children. I would consider them as innocent/random bystanders.
Anybody that thinks they are not safe can simply stay home--that is 100% safe.
Doesn't really protect against PTSD episodes (veterans), forest fires, or homes and cars burning down.
Yes - and I agree to an extent. However, I think the risks can be significantly ameliorated short of banning fireworks.
Defending fireworks however is not a hill I want to die on.
My secondary argument is that people drive for pleasure (vacations, recreational activities, getting out if the house) and those trips have little utility. However, some of those trips end in accidents and fatalities for the drivers and for innocent bystanders.
I struggle to see the qualitative difference between the pleasure driving and fireworks, especially since fireworks happen once a year.
I struggle to see the qualitative difference between the pleasure driving and fireworks, especially since fireworks happen once a year.
You struggle to see the difference in untrained, drunk idiots blowing up poorly manufactured Chinese sky bombs, and being able to drive your (heavily regulated) car freely? Why are you "struggling" with extremely basic logic?
There is no way you are saying this shit in good faith. You **have** to be smarter than this.
10.1.1By the way - did your basset consent?
Are you NUTS? Drunk driving kills exponentially more people every year. Should we ban alcohol? I'm sure that would not over well on this blog. No more Friday/Saturday night what are you drinking threads.
You mean like the people willing to take a giant risk with COVID but not a miniscule risk with the vaccine?
Pro tip: if your rationalization of a risky behavior requires comparison to skydiving, it belongs in the garbage.
Back in the 70s, I remember that Michigan had some of the most restricted firework laws. We could only light sparklers as kids. Here in Kansas most people light off class B mortars and box finales and very few get injured. I light my mortars in the street and run back up my driveway. I don't drink much before lighting fireworks.
Michigan changed the law in 2011 to allow almost everything. You still can't set them off in the road, however, only on your own property.
I did not hang around at the neighbors boom fest up the street. My wife asked if I was being anti social. I later got a report that one of the rockets or shells ended up going horizontal and skittering through the yard next to the detonator's house. No one injured, fortunately.
That's why you shouldn't play with fireworks.
Also, they are manufactured in China so obviously it is a CCP conspiracy to rob us of our best and brightest drunks right during America's yearly birthday celebration "/s"
That's why you shouldn't play with fireworks.
Also, they are manufactured in China so obviously it is a CCP conspiracy to rob us of our best and brightest drunks right during America's yearly birthday celebration "/s"
My opinion on fireworks changed after spending a 4th of July with a Iraq war vet with PTSD in Columbus, Ohio. It was absolutely nuts how many mortors were going off for miles in every direction. I don't know how he copes with the 4th, that night it was heavy consumption of alcohol and hiding in the basement constantly getting up to look out the window.
Leave the big boomers to the professionals.
That's incredibly sad. Thank you for being there with him.
10.1.1Dude basically got shot in the chest with fireworks. Damn man, that's terrible.
https://www.wxyz.com/news/my-daughter-could-be-dead-right-now-says-haze…
Family just minding their own business when some idiots sent fireworks blasting through their house almost hitting a kid’s room. These so impact people who have nothing to do with them. How do you propose they avoid it?
Society loses its mind at the the beginning of each July for a week and it gets worse every year.