Talking Cars Tuesday; The Future is CUV?
As I've stated before; I've kind of moved on beyond CUV's for alot of my transport. In my opinion: they're big; don't do the people moving as well as a minivan; don't have the driving dynamics, mileage, or 'luggage seclusion' of a car (Oh how I miss you 24 cu ft trunk in the Five Hundred); and the luggage space is smaller than the rear cargo area suggests unless you don't mind luggage raining on your back passengers and having zero rearward visibility. If you have a 3rd row; even if it's decently executed, it still sucks compared to a minivan. In many ways, despite all their more car like advancements they are compromise vehicles. Yet, they are sweeping the industry in an unprecedented manner when you think of entire automakers giving up cars due to the massive sales of CUV's and their increased margins.
I mean, I like my Jeep Commander. With the 40/20/40 rear seat split, it provides some useful things (I can load skiis and the kids in the back). But it's definitely more of a true SUV with a specific purpose (Take me to trailheads in deep snow in winter; tow the boat in summer) and I don't drive it anywhere distance wise because mileage sucks and it's loud.
I think my perfect vehicle would have been a minivan with a real AWD system (capable of really pushing alot of torque to each axle) with good ground clearance and a stout enough engine to tow. But no one makes that anymore.
So my question is:
If you are a CUV lover; what made you make the jump from a car or minivan to CUV? For those of the prognosticating mood, do you think the pendulum will ever shift backward in the short to mid term?
January 28th, 2020 at 11:00 AM ^
Point 4 is very intriguing and not something I had thought of.
Point 1 is true... for SUV's. Every Sedan I've had still crushes every CUV.
Point 3... is it mainly advertising?
January 28th, 2020 at 11:08 AM ^
1 - for gas mileage in general cars > CUV > SUV, but all >>> SUVs 10 years ago
3 - I think so? I have lots of friends who are having babies and apparently car seats have gotten safer - but massive. And strollers are massive. So, they think they need lots of space for both things, and they think SUVs have the space. Really they've got about the space of a hatchback or station wagon.
4 - Yep. No kids for me yet, but my wife has said she thinks that taking an eventual kid out of a car seat that's in a CUV would be better for her back than bending down to pick a child up out of a car. My step mom has back issues, and can't easily step into a truck or a small car. That's anecdotal, but think about how the US population is aging and it makes some sense.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:22 AM ^
3 - I think so? I have lots of friends who are having babies and apparently car seats have gotten safer - but massive. And strollers are massive. So, they think they need lots of space for both things, and they think SUVs have the space. Really they've got about the space of a hatchback or station wagon.
I totally get that. I had Britax Back Busters in our ZJ and Five Hundred. But, at least in my opinion, in most of the country those people would be better served if they bought a Minivan.
One thing I wish they still had was the original smaller size minivan. If you're a 1-2 kid household the size is perfect; and the sliding doors would still give you crap tons of access and good cargo space. In some ways I think vehicles like the Venza are basically small minivans without the sliding doors to tip off what they really are.
Pacifica/Odyssey/Sienna can be a bit overkill for that size family.
January 28th, 2020 at 2:29 PM ^
In terms of trunk space, my Taurus crushes my Fiance's Escape. And as long as it's not too tall of an item, my trunk space length with the seats down beat's the Escape with the seats down by a considerable margin. Heck, we tailgate more often with my car than hers. There are times her car is better though. Couldn't quite get a 55" TV into my truck due to the shape of the opening from my trunk to the cabin with the seats down. They slapped ridiculous radii on there!
I'm a fan of a full size car over a CUV, and an SUV at the top of our price range. Her lease is up soon, and we are looking at a Outback (more of a station wagon feel) or the Explorer, based on what lease deal we can get. We're both leaning towards the Outback tbh.
Once you go CUV though, It's hard to go back to a mid-size sedan. It's nice riding a little higher up, especially as all the other cars get bigger. And I agree, mini vans are more the size of old conversion vans (much like the new Ranger being larger than the old F150s). Just way too much for us.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:13 PM ^
Honestly, that's why we went to the Transit after we traded in the Explorer this summer. The wife wanted a car that was easier to get to / operate the kid seats in the rear. She's 5'0" and there were times it was a hard time for her to get to the second row in the Explorer to strap the little ones into / out of their car seats. With the Transit now, she slides open the door and steps up easily into the rear to get to the car seats (the low floor and the relatively high boxy roof in the Transit make it really easy for her-- she can almost stand up straight).
January 28th, 2020 at 11:03 AM ^
Yeah, sorry about the competition. It wasn't intended. :-)
January 28th, 2020 at 11:13 AM ^
That "hip point" is huge. I'm 6'2" and my explorer is the perfect height for in and out. Full size pickups are too tall, need the running board, and traditional sedans are a pain in the but getting out of.
Surprisingly my explorer gets only 1mpg fewer than my old fusion did. But I think that is probably because it has the ecoboost engine and fusion didn't. That and I probably don't drive like a jerk anymore.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:49 PM ^
#4 was a big deal for us. My wife has RA and struggles with her knees. I've had 5 surgeries on my right knee, so the time is coming when I'll really struggle to get into a sedan. Also, we like the AWD. Not much snow where we are, but we go over the passes in WA fairly frequently and it's nice to have as there's no telling what the weather will be like up there until about an hour before.
January 28th, 2020 at 9:50 AM ^
' a minivan with a real AWD system (capable of really pushing alot of torque to each axle) with good ground clearance and a stout enough engine to tow. "
You just described a three row SUV, right?
January 28th, 2020 at 10:40 AM ^
I mean that is basically what the last generation (up through 2019 model year) AWD Ford Explorers were. 3 row vehicles with good clearance, a big enough engine to power through snow / drag a boat, and even with the third row up, enough cargo room in the trunk to throw suitcases and a set of golf clubs. And the gas mileage wasn't bad. We had the 2nd row bench seat, but if we had the 2nd row captain's chairs instead, it would have been almost as easy as a minivan to get into the third row.
We now have the 3-row passenger version of teh Ford Transit van and it's a dream with three kids for 90% of our driving, but the clearance is NOT GOOD BOB. I just traded in my 2008 Focus and bought a used (80k miles! no rust!) 2000 Jeep Cherokee to tool around in and drive kids to hockey tournaments in Grand Rapids / TC / go to inlaws place up north for a couple years. Hopefully by that time Ford will have worked out the kinks in the new Bronco and I can get that instead. I'm cautiously optimistic based on the recent spy shots and talking to my uncle who works in Ford design that the new Bronco is going to be a winner for my needs.
January 28th, 2020 at 10:58 AM ^
Not in my opinion at least. A minivan has a much bigger box shape than a SUV/CUV. But your's is a fair point in that I didn't describe it well.
Think of a Pacifica with another couple inches of ground clearance and the 3.6 Phoenix, AWD, and a beefed up trans.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:14 AM ^
UNderstood what you're saying. When we went with the Explorer, it was specifically because it had a more boxy shape in reality in the back end, so it got us an extra 2-3" of length in the rear cargo hold with the 3rd row up compared to other 3 row SUVs we were looking at at the time (Durango, Journey, Traverse, Honda one), and that makes a HUGE difference when trying to fit in roll-aboard style suitcases. But it still paled compared to my mom's Pacifica- so point taken.
Based on my earlier comment about my Transit, I just looked quickly on line to see if there are lift kits for a Transit... sure enough, there's a couple aftermarket kits that are talked well of, that get you between 2-3" lift. If we end up keeping this van after lease is up, I may look at a Transit lift kit (sounds like it'd be about $1200-$2000 installed) to get me that extra clearance and ability to upgrade the tires.
January 28th, 2020 at 10:03 AM ^
Plus 1 on the minivan. Once you get over the stigma there is so much minivans offer vs SUVs. Sometimes ski trips can be a little hairy though depending on resort and recent snow
January 28th, 2020 at 10:06 AM ^
Get some winter tires, you'll pass the mall cruisers
January 28th, 2020 at 11:04 AM ^
I have an unrequited love of minivans. My family has been able to take more, more comfortably, and more economically in even an older minivan than the CUV's we've been in.
And I'm a tire Zealot. I'm astounded by the amount of people who just throw on whatever.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:13 AM ^
My vehicle dynamics professor at Michigan loved the line "The Brakes stop the Tires and the Tires stop the Car".
Tires are huge!
January 28th, 2020 at 12:22 PM ^
Can attest to tires being very important...he’ll, they only equipment that touches the ground. I have Perelli run flats. I was driving to San Diego airport early am, cruising at a comfortable 85-90 and my tire blew out. The car didn’t even swerve. I was able to drive to the airport, and to the dealership upon my return with no problems.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:16 AM ^
I'm in the minority, but I'll keep my sporty compact/midsized sedans. Even in the Northeast with winter tires they are fine. Honda Civic SI, Honda Accord Sport, Toyota Camry SE/XSE, Nissan Altima SR, VW Jetta GLI, etc. that's my jam. I hate driving SUVs, trucks, CUVs, whatever they are called today. I'll sacrifice AWD and space any day for the enjoyment and gas mileage of driving a sedan. Granted, I'd love to have a luxury sports sedan with AWD like an Audi A6 or the like, but I don't think that's a good use my money. And, I also don't have kids and don't have the need for a ton of space other than fitting my 2 medium sized dogs in the back seat. I find sport or high end trim of midsized or compact cars to be best balance of fun to drive, sporty, fast, enough space, and a good value.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:33 PM ^
I have a luxury sports sedan, Infiniti G37x, and I can assure you that it absolutely is a good use of your money. It's very quick/fast, handles like a sports car, and has enough room for 5 people if one of them is small. Mine is a 2011, has over 165k on it, drives like the day I bought it, and has needed absolutely no repairs or maintenance other than brakes/tires and oil changes.
Buy one a few years old off of a lease so the first guy eats the depreciation and it won't even cost all that much.
But I agree. I don't get the CUV craze. It's just a tall car.
January 28th, 2020 at 2:34 PM ^
Cheers, I've always liked them. I've leased for so long because I enjoy having a new car and not worrying about repairs, but you make a good point about reliability. That's really good to get that mileage with no major repairs. I wonder what the price difference is between a $300/month lease over say 7 years and financing a used luxury sports sedan where you probably finance it for 5 years then 2-3 years with no cost before you get something new again.
January 28th, 2020 at 3:08 PM ^
I drive too much for leasing to be a reasonable option now that 10k per year (or less) is standard and extra miles are $.25 each.
If you're looking to break even or come out ahead from what you're doing now, forget about that Audi. Or any German car. They're just not as reliable as they used to be and they're expensive to fix.
Stick to the Japanese. I like Infiniti because they're more performance oriented than Lexus, but Acura would be another great choice. The Korean's even have a couple cars in the segment now. Nice thing about Kia / Hyundai is that the quality is very good now, but they depreciate like crazy at the beginning. Great bargains when they're a few years old.
January 28th, 2020 at 3:58 PM ^
Stick to the Japanese. I like Infiniti because they're more performance oriented than Lexus, but Acura would be another great choice.
Have you ever driven the IS? They look sportier. I've been in them, but never driven.
Nice thing about Kia / Hyundai is that the quality is very good now, but they depreciate like crazy at the beginning. Great bargains when they're a few years old.
My dad just bought a Kia Stinger. He likes it, but I haven't driven it. It spurred me to consider leasing a Kia Forte GT, but ultimately decided to go with a Civic SI.
January 28th, 2020 at 5:14 PM ^
The Korean's even have a couple cars in the segment now. Nice thing about Kia / Hyundai is that the quality is very good now, but they depreciate like crazy at the beginning. Great bargains when they're a few years old.
Can confirm. Bought a 2 year old Genesis sedan with <30k miles on it for ~50% of sticker. Very pleased 50k miles later.
A lot of people don't want Korean when they're in the market for "luxury." A lot of people don't want used when they're in the market for "luxury." Put those together, swallow your pride and you make off like a bandit.
No one will confuse my Genesis for a Benz. But for a daily commuter to just gobble up miles and have a respectable amount of panache (inside and out) in a professional setting? It's been great.
January 28th, 2020 at 2:40 PM ^
Always been a full size car guy. Had a Caprise Classic, a Crown Victoria, and now a Taurus. I'm running out of options in terms of American auto makers. And I'm not too much of a fan of CUVs because it's closer to a taller midsize than a full. I like some space when I get into the driver seat. But if I had to choose between a mid size and a tall mid size, give me the tall one.
January 28th, 2020 at 4:00 PM ^
Always been a full size car guy. Had a Caprise Classic, a Crown Victoria, and now a Taurus. I'm running out of options in terms of American auto makers.
I like the most recent version of the Impala.
January 28th, 2020 at 4:23 PM ^
Yeah, rented one a few years back while I was on vacation. Very nice car for sure, but I hate the dashboard and inferface/controls on a Chevy. I hope they change it soon, because imo, the touchscreen screen feels very Leapfrog/YouTube Kids.
With the 300 going way, the Taurus going away. It's basically an Impala or a Charger, and the Charger is a tab bit sportscar for me. And I don't have access to a Chrysler discount like I do with Ford/GM. Foreign options are still something I want to avoid out of respect to my family/friends who work(ed) in the American auto industry. But at some point I'm sure I'll have to throw my hands up!
January 28th, 2020 at 11:23 AM ^
I don’t see SUV / CUV disappearing any time soon. The problem with minivans and sedans is that they lack any “cool factor” that sports cars and SUVs have.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:39 PM ^
+1 The Odyssey and Sienna are just too efficient to go away and that's why they're basically the only ones left on the market.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:30 AM ^
The big pluses of CUVs vs sedans are:
1. Better ground clearance
2. AWD option
3. can store items too tall for a trunk
4. With a trailer package, you can pull most small trailers or use hitch bike racks (better than trunk racks by a long shot).
January 28th, 2020 at 11:32 AM ^
A bit off topic here, but do any of you MgoDads have any experience in finding a vehicle that fits three carseats across that's not a three row van/SUV?
January 28th, 2020 at 11:45 AM ^
I could fit 2 Graco Slim Fit seats and a booster seat in the back seat of my 2008 Focus, it just required timing and sequencing rivaling an Ocean's 11 heist plot. That was for a 3, 5, and 9 year old. that had a 51 in hip room measurement on the rear seat. You probably need 54 or greater for a fighting chance.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:51 AM ^
Oh and if you do try to fit three car seats in the back, DO NOT plan on using the LATCH system. You'll be able to get seats 1 and 2 in but there will be no room for seat #3. If you have a pumpkin carrier, I'd put the pumpkin in the middle with LATCH and then two upright seats on either side using belts passed through the back (with the top tethers attached to the rear anchors).
January 28th, 2020 at 1:06 PM ^
Thanks for the advice! I currently have a Camry and the wife has a Pilot with bench seats. After much moving around I came to the conclusion that you did in regards to the latch system. I think we just need to spend the dang money and get some new slim fit car seats.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:52 AM ^
I haven't pulled it off; we went to three rows before we had three kids. It gets easier when the kids are in boosters, but when you have two LATCH seats it's going to be tight. Sedans these days are a bit smaller than they used to be, ceding the "space" segment to vans, pickups, and SUVs.
We do fit three kids in back seats now, but two of them need no seats at all.
January 28th, 2020 at 1:09 PM ^
The baby's due in two weeks and we just started to try and fit these buggers in. I'd really like to figure out how to make this happen with what we have, but I fear I'll be van shopping soon.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:09 PM ^
EDIT: the wording of your post was a little unclear to me. Do you mean no SUVs at all or just no three row SUVs? The Edge is a two row SUV, so not sure if that's what you have in mind.
Anyway: my wife and I had to fit two three year old twins (obviously requiring child seats) and a newborn into one vehicle a few years ago. We had decided to go the SUV route, and I scouted for this exact purpose. The best option for us was far and away the Ford Edge (2015 model in our case). It was a bit wider in the back than some of the other SUVs out there and made it much easier to get three seats in just the back row. We did have to find some slimmer seats for the twins (newborn was obviously in a traditional bucket) and went with a couple Diono Radian R100.
Anyway, the Edge was a great purchase. I've loved owning it, and it absolutely got the job done for us.
January 28th, 2020 at 1:15 PM ^
Yeah sorry I'm not the best with the wordz. I prefer to have a vehicle that's only two rows for myself. I'll look into the Edge.
January 28th, 2020 at 2:33 PM ^
If you're only interested in no 3rd row, there are lots of options. I'm mostly a Ford / Jeep guy, so the Edge is a good choice that isn't too truck-y but still affordable (as new cars go). Like I said earlier, just look at the specs for 2nd row or rear "hip room". My baseline Focus is 50.9". A 2019 Edge has 57.5". Just to show you though that it matters on design, nominally a Jeep Compass should be roomier than a Jeep Renegade. But if you look at the 2nd row hip room, the Renegade has 51.9" while the Compass has 49.2" (!!). A Ford Fusion has 54.4" and I can confirm that it's a lot easier to get my kids car seats in grandma's Fusion that it is in my Focus.
January 28th, 2020 at 3:54 PM ^
Thanks, we were looking at a used Taurus recently and it was 56" if I recall correctly.
January 28th, 2020 at 5:28 PM ^
there are websites that will tell you specific car seat configurations that will fit in specific cars. this is an example:
https://www.thecarcrashdetective.com/3-across-car-seat-guide-html/
the problem with measurements is that it isn't as straight forward as the width of the car seats added together being less than the width of the back seat - how the seats fit next to each other can prevent it, even if the addition works out. i've looked into whether we could do three across our outback, but it would require buying new car seats.
caveat - mgomom
January 28th, 2020 at 11:50 AM ^
I like car topics and there's some good discussion here, but I'm growing increasingly tired of people explaining to other people why the vehicles they like and own aren't REALLY what they need. Last week's stupid mansplain of why I really should spend an extra five figures to get an electric car, for example.
People like crossovers because they like them. You say that you "only" need AWD a few days a year (at least where I live, it's a lot more than one or two days a year) and that it doesn't do much because it doesn't help you stop, but that's spurious. For those few days a year, people DO want it. They want the extra power in the wheels to get started, and to avoid getting stuck. And they like not having to schedule appointments to swap in and out of snow tires.
We don't need airbags or seat belts most of the time, either, but those few times that we do need them, we're glad they're there. I only need AC for a couple months out of the year up here in Duluth, but I really miss it if I don't have it.
I'm not personally a crossover fan (my two vehicles are a Camry and a Town and Country), but I understand why people get them. One elderly couple in our church lives out in the sticks a bit, and they used to have a car, but they switched to a crossover, which was similar in price and mileage and provided much more practical utility to them on snowy Wisconsin roads that are 15+ minutes from any emergency services.
That's where a lot of the customers for CUVs come from: Former car buyers. They get a higher stance, somewhat better ground clearance, AWD, good mileage... for not much more money.
The reason these vehicles are successful is because people want to buy them.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:48 PM ^
Fair point, and I'm guilty of that; though I try not to be. My main desire was to find out what people like about them that I'm missing, and see if there might be a swing back to other vehicles in the future. I think I've been educated. I might not agree (except for the hip point thing. That makes a ton of sense) but I'm enlightened.
I hope there is a swing back. I really don't want my next car to be a CUV just because I prefer other types more. It's just getting harder to find them.
January 28th, 2020 at 1:07 PM ^
Seconded. My wife's Honda Crosstour is our favorite vehicle we've ever owned by a mile, but inevitably, whenever I say so I get a litany of responses and reasons why I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about.
Really wish I had these people around me every day to remind me how dumb I am more often.
January 28th, 2020 at 1:11 PM ^
I didn't realize so many posters owned tire shops...
January 28th, 2020 at 2:11 PM ^
Aside from my (likely irrational) pure hatred like the fire of a thousand hells for the use of the not-really-a-real-word "mansplain" .....
I agree totally with you.
What I drive has zero bearing on what you must therefore drive, so the "X is better because of Y" or "you wouldn't need X if you did Y" is really really annoying. I drive a truck. Cuz I like it and it fits my lifestyle.
I enjoyed the TCTs that were more along the lines of dream cars, favorite 70s car movie, first car etc.
January 28th, 2020 at 2:43 PM ^
Oh goody, another MGoBlog car thread full of experts telling me I don't need AWD or 4WD when every fucking winter I look outside and see people stuck at the bottom of the hill I live on, fruitlessly trying to get their 2WD car up the hill. One of those cars getting stuck is my neighbor's Jeep, which for some reason is 2WD. His big knobby tires don't do shit in the snow, apparently.
My wife and I have never gotten stuck once in the 20 years we've lived here, and we've never had to install/remove/install/remove/etc. snow tires, either.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:53 AM ^
Snow tires are not a good choice for everyone. I drive between Michigan to Maryland several times each year. While at times during the year snow tires may be useful in Michigan, it may be 60 degrees or more in Maryland when I arrive. At temperatures of 60F or higher, snow tires do not perform well and the handling is less safe than all season tires. AWD appears to be a better alternative than snow tires in my travels between snowy and mild climates.
I transport my dogs in two dog crates on trips. I need space for the crates behind the rear seat that is not available in a sedan. I also prefer the higher driving position of my vehicle and the ease of entrance and exit, which a sedan does not offer.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:35 PM ^
I'm an ex CUV guy. I wanted the relative cost/efficiency of a car, but with AWD and height of an SUV for snowy Michigan. Do you need AWD? No, but good luck trying to get good resale value in-state.
I've sinced move to LA and have gone hybrid-compact sedan, easy to park, easy on the wallet for gas. I would've gone Electric, but it's unclear if I'm living here long term, so i wanted something that could work in markets without much chargepoints.
January 28th, 2020 at 1:32 PM ^
Personally - I prefer small cars.
...but we have a need for 3 rows of seats. We test drove a couple minivans and a couple CUV/SUV types. We ended up buying a Honda Pilot.
Minivan: a bit cheaper, more cargo space, ugly, gutless, poor ground clearance.
Toyota Highlander: EXPENSIVE, least amount of cargo space, gutless
Honda Pilot: less cargo than minivan - but close, middle priced, actual reasonable acceleration
Our Pilot is AWD, does 0-60 in about 7.5 seconds, and gets 27-30mpg on the highway.
January 28th, 2020 at 2:14 PM ^
Back in 1991 when my son was 3 and my daughter was on the horizon, my wife made it clear she was not going to be a soccer mom driving a minivan. We also purchased a boat that year, so we replaced her beloved Mustang convertible with a 1991 Ford Explorer.
So, until minivans or some other vehicle type become the desired object of consumers, we will be living with SUVs. They have morphed into various sizes and shapes to suit many tastes. Electric drivetrains will probably shrink them in size a bit to reduce weight and increase efficiency.
When I was a kid, I was envious of my friends that had station wagons that you could sit way in the back and look out the back window or through roof dormer windows. That was cool. Maybe the circle will close some day and we’ll be back to large capacity vehicles that are more like cars, but I think the moms of America will need to drive that just as they did with SUVs.