Hoke - Jake Ryan to MIKE and other WTKA tidbits
- Chris Bryant to take medical
- Jake Ryan moving to MIKE
- Magnuson will miss "most" of spring, will do some individual stuff, surgery went well
- Tuley-Tillman had hand surgery
- Drake Johnson and Darboh are limited and working their way back
- Some other odds and ends related to the D coaching moves
I'm sure someone who was listening can elaborate on/clarify some of the above. These are from Michigan Insider tweets as he was interviewed.
February 21st, 2014 at 3:34 PM ^
Actually, I did attempt to find out ACL tear averages. Most of what I found was not current. If you want some reading:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1941297/
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/373615-give-and-let-give-curbing-the…
February 21st, 2014 at 8:11 AM ^
I really hope the Ryan move is simply a matter of getting the best 11 on the field. Logic being: Ryan (MIKE) + Gedeon/McCray (SAM) > Ryan (SAM) + Bolden/Morgan (MIKE)...
The Bryant news should come as a shock to no one...I wish the kid nothing but a healthy future.
February 21st, 2014 at 8:23 AM ^
Space Coyote -- are you around for some strategic guidance here?
February 21st, 2014 at 8:46 AM ^
1. This doesn't allow offenses to dictate where Ryan lines up and doesn't allow them to get him out of the box.
2. Ryan I think does fit in well at MIKE. He's athletic and instinctive enough to play the position, but he's also bigger (like a Max Bullough) so can take on lead blocks inside the box and be very disruptive in that way.
3. I think Michigan wants to go to more of the LB/S SAM type rather than the LB/DE SAM type because of all the teams that want to spread them out. That gets them a little more athletic.
4. Bolden has struggled a bit in a few areas, including making good strong contact when run filling and doing it quickly enough. Bolden is a good enough athlete though, and big enough, that he can probably fill Ryan's role at SAM rather well. Wouldn't be surprised if Morgan split more time between MIKE and WILL now depending on match ups and things of that nature.
5. This does cause some worry at the SAM spot for me. I assume Bolden may move there and Beyer may move back (there are a lot of numbers on the DL, so Beyer playing SAM against heavier teams is probably for the best anyway). We'll see how Gant has grown into a hybrid type. I still think that RJS is more of a SAM type. Then you have some young guys like McCray that can hopefully step in and play some snaps as well.
I still think I prefer Ryan as a traditional SAM or a 3-4 OLB-type. That's probably his optimal position. But he's also probably the best player on the defense and this allows him to be more involved. Having your best player involved more often is typically a good thing no matter what. I think the goal is to be better against the run at all times with this move, and hopefully be able to be a bit better against the pass if you have the correct SAM type out there against spread teams. Maybe you lose some of the explosive plays off the edge, but the goal is to get to downs and distances early so that you aren't in run/pass situations on 3rd down. At that point you can still put Ryan with a hand in the dirt playing DE if they get to 3rd and long.
This move to me screams we need to be better on 1st and 2nd down so we can get in 3rd down situations we like, and not rely on big plays (sacks, for instance, which even for good teams are fairly rare) to get to that position.
February 21st, 2014 at 9:03 AM ^
i agree that ryan still makes sense at SAM because now we're taking ross, one of our more instinctive players, off the field. unless ross is moving to SAM because he's more of an LB/S type. but that's just as weird.
February 21st, 2014 at 9:14 AM ^
Ross is a very instinctive player that I like but has limitations against bigger teams and struggled at times when he himself had to play both run and pass. This allows Michigan to work with more match-ups between Ross/Morgan/Ryan. Ross is too instinctive and doesn't really have the physical attributes to kick out to SAM. Out of all the LBs, I think he's the most set in stone at their position.
February 21st, 2014 at 9:41 AM ^
so then who do you have at SAM? you think morgan, ross and ryan each take a third of the snaps at WILL/MIKE? that means on every down one of your best three LBs is off the field. that's the part i don't get.
February 21st, 2014 at 9:53 AM ^
I think Bolden may get kicked out to SAM, I think RJS is a better fit at SAM, Gant is there, as is McCray. You could move Beyer back out to SAM against heavier teams. Against more spread teams you are playing a lot of nickel anyway. MO could potentially play some SAM as well if you really wanted to get into 6 possibilities.
February 21st, 2014 at 9:10 AM ^
February 21st, 2014 at 9:16 AM ^
So Peppers is playing the LB/S SAM Spot? Or Dymonte? and Peppers at FS. WHAT IS GOING ON?!?!?
February 21st, 2014 at 9:19 AM ^
Correct me if I'm insane, but the 4-3 Under requires the SAM to be able to hold the edge without just sitting on the edge. I don't think Morgan is athletic enough to do that, and I worry about Bolden's discipline out there. Beyer struggled in space, and Gant is still an unknown. I like the idea of Ryan in the middle, but I would also feel better with Ryan on the edge.
Okay, new plan. We need at least two Jake Ryans.
February 21st, 2014 at 9:30 AM ^
Maybe McCray is THAT good?! Let's be optimistic here!
February 21st, 2014 at 9:38 AM ^
But there are two ways of doing that, and was something that Hoke actually brought up recently during the signing day presser:
1. You can have a LB/DE type that plays tighter to the LOS and closer inside the box that takes on TEs and such at the point of attack and holds the edge that way.
2. You can have a LB/S type that starts a little farther away from the box in more of the gray area and uses his athleticism to hold the edge starting from a wider angle.
#1 is better at squeezing the play down and keeping things in a tighter area, but struggles at defending slots and things of that nature, because you are either left with a LB/DE type in space splitting out or having to move a safety over (or a CB) so the SAM isn't left with playing in as much space.
#2 is better against the pass and you can probably more easily play your base defense. It probably requires the safeties to be more involved in the run game and in covering the TE, and it allows teams to more easily kick out the SAM to widen the off-tackle run game. However, it still does force things back to the inside, aka, holding the edge.
#1 is Jake Ryan. #2 is Senior Stevie Brown (or to a lesser extent Cam Gordon and now probably Gant).
February 21st, 2014 at 9:44 AM ^
right, but since jake ryan won't be there, who fills the stevie brown spot since cam gordon has graduated?
February 21st, 2014 at 9:43 AM ^
i'm not sure why you wouldn't want at least 3 jake ryans!
February 21st, 2014 at 12:26 PM ^
February 21st, 2014 at 9:54 AM ^
I think we can all agree MOAR Jake Ryans will always be desired.
February 21st, 2014 at 10:02 AM ^
February 21st, 2014 at 11:44 AM ^
But isn't Gedeon at SAM an ideal solution if Ryan is the new MIKE? My understanding is that he's athletic enough to either rush the passer, get to the sideline, or drop in coverage. And he's big. Are they just trying to keep him at MIKE so he's as ready as possible to step in next year? I hope not, because I don't think holding anything back -- at all -- this year makes sense.
Personally, I think Ryan and Gedeon are the two most talented players in the LB corps, so I'd like to see both of them on the field. But I'm no expert.
February 21st, 2014 at 11:54 AM ^
And to be honest, all of the incoming LBs could probably fit at SAM. I think McCray is a more natural fit at the SAM position and I'd probably prefer to keep Gedeon at the position he'll likely stay at, because of getting him ready to step in there.
February 21st, 2014 at 8:41 AM ^
I get your reasoning, but you also have to consider whether Ryan @ SAM >= Ryan @ MIKE. When I think of Ryan's playing style, I think of kind of a loose cannon in space running around "making plays" type. When I think of a MIKE, I think of a field-general directing the D type. Maybe that's not fair to Ryan's skill set and maybe I'm totally misrepresenting the roles of those positions (huge caveat - I am not, nor have I ever been close to being, a football coach), but I worry about taking the only proven playmaker on D and moving him out of a role where he was able to "make plays."
(Scare quotes on "make plays" because I hate overly vaguely descriptives like that and "just wins games," and I know Ryan wasn't just let loose to run around and that he had edge/contain responsibilities and stuff.)
February 21st, 2014 at 9:52 AM ^
with this move is that MLB >> SAM.
February 21st, 2014 at 9:55 AM ^
I'm kind of in the same boat. Ryan off the edge on blitzes and contain was huge for the D
I'd be curious to see the historic split in regards to blitzing by linebacker position over the last few seasons. Would Ryan see a decrease in blitzing? Or will the utlize his skill set and send the MIKE more than you typically would than, say, a Desmond Morgan? If that's the case, at least he will have a shorter distance to travel when creating havoc in the backfield.
February 21st, 2014 at 11:47 AM ^
What I'm hoping it doesn't mean is that Ryan still hasn't -- and potentially won't -- get back the explosiveness he had pre-injury.
Of course, it doesn't seem at all unlikely that on obvious passing downs Ryan will be turned loose in a non-traditional MIKE/full-on QB murderin' type of role. So let's hold on to that.
February 21st, 2014 at 11:58 AM ^
Played ILB on normal downs, moved down to DE in passing situations while at Alabama.
It actually used to be the traditional adjustment for LBs back in the day. Move from a 4-3 to a 5-2, move your MIKE down to put a hand in the dirt. Brandon Graham was a MIKE/DE. For all the grief he got, Ezeh was a MIKE/DE type. So it's not all that unusual for the MIKE to move down, though anymore it's more for pass rush reasons than for what it used to be for (getting quicker, bigger guys at the LOS to disrupt the OL).
February 21st, 2014 at 8:20 AM ^
Ryan doesn't seem like a Mike at all to me, but I guess I'll trust the coaches. I can only imagine they've decided that Gedeon is better than either Ross or Morgan, but I just don't know if Ryan is better than either of them as an ILB. Maybe they've decided that Gedeon is simply better than Ryan full stop? That would be very surprising to me.
February 21st, 2014 at 8:53 AM ^
Ryan is similar in size to Ray Lewis (JR 6'3 240, RL 6'1, 240), he is 20 pounds heavier than Ross or Morgan and has good instincts. Ross has shown good instincts, but I believe he struggles fighting through OL blocks in the second level. Ryan has more mass and while he is not a quick as Ross, will be able to fight through those blocks to get to the football. I like the move of putting our best defensive player in a position to make a play every down and I think he is talented enough and instinctive enough to get the job done.
February 21st, 2014 at 9:25 AM ^
I believe Mattison was quoted earlier this year as saying we needed to get bigger at LB. He may have meant "bigger inside" after the way ohio (and some others) ran at will up the middle last year. I am curious to see how this all shakes out. Gedeon looked good for a true freshman last year, and he also looked bigger than Morgan, Bolden, Ross. Wonder if he will crack the starting lineup this year? Mattison taking over coaching LBs makes this all the more interesting.
February 21st, 2014 at 8:21 AM ^
February 21st, 2014 at 8:41 AM ^
We sure have a lot of question marks on this team this year. D line play is going to be huge. Offense of line play is going to be huge. It just seems like we still have a long ....way .....to ..... go.
Sigh.
Let's hope for some MAGIC this year.
PS-I know this is a different thread but… If things aren't great this year I don't think a coaching change is the answer.
February 21st, 2014 at 8:45 AM ^
I'm not sure if it's desperation. Linebacker seems like one of the better position groups. I don't see the coaches making desperation changes, given the group they have there.
February 21st, 2014 at 8:49 AM ^
Out of all positions, I think LB for Michigan is the least likely to have a "desperation change" attached to it. They could have gotten by just fine with another year of grooming and staying with the status quo. This change was made because the coaches think it's for the best for the team.
February 21st, 2014 at 9:33 AM ^
However, do you think this is a data point in the growing concern, at least in my opinion, that the coaches seem to have difficulty properly identifying the talent and where they should play during practice? Or perhaps a still lack of what they see as development at spots?
I'm thinking about the insider talk that the coaches thought Gardner would never be a viable QB, the OL shuffling this year and last year, Funchess as a WR not until late in the year, Braden as a seeming lock for starter to nothing, Thomas as seeming lock for Nickel to nowhere, safety shuffling, LB shuffling...just seems like a lot of movement; more than normal tweaks.
February 21st, 2014 at 9:50 AM ^
Ryan still is probably optimally a SAM, this move is probably for the better of the defense as a whole though, so this move isn't really an identifying type move.
I'm high on the DG hype train and think he'll be a very good QB once/if he finds better protection, but he really struggled early in his career with accuracy, mechanics, and reading defenses. He took a leap after he gained some confidence, and they did plan on moving him back to QB after 2012 to at least give him a shot. But him as a good QB was far from obvious until things really started clicking. And his upside at WR was and still is pretty high as well.
OL shuffling was because the OL wasn't performing, but I don't think it was really an evaluation problem. They were playing with young guys and they switched up what they were trying to do as far as scheme, which allowed for others to step up. When the OL is performing at the level they were, you're forced to try things to some degree.
Funchess I still think can play TE. I think at the start of the season Michigan didn't really have a lot of options there. Butt was still young (TR FR) and making young mistakes, and Williams isn't athletic enough. On top of that, they had decent numbers on the outside with Gallon, Darboh, Chesson, Reynolds, and Dileo. Funchess didn't develop during the season and Butt really stepped up, and that's why he moved.
Thomas they were trying to get on the field in a role that a young athletic guy could pick up, but he struggled in coverage as a guy that came in playing LB in HS. Now, they are trying to coach him up on the one position he was actually intended to play instead of coaching him two positions so that he can progress faster, but he was always intended to end up at safety.
This isn't a Michigan only thing, you can look over at MSU for what are probably more drastic moves than Michigan has had. The younger Bullough moved from SAM to RB and now is moving back to LB. They have another RB that may move to LB and another RB that may move to WR. They converted an OL to TE, they converted another OL to DL and may move him back. They've moved guys from CB to WR, safety to LB. They rotated guys from OC to OG and OG to OT and vise versa. Position moves, particularly for young guys (underclassman) is normal.
February 21st, 2014 at 9:58 AM ^
Does he have the size to play that LB/S SAM position? I could see him fitting in well there if he's big enough.
February 21st, 2014 at 10:05 AM ^
But I don't think the coaches want that much of a hybrid player. Thomas would be a good 3-3-5 box safety for instance, which is a S/LB hybrid. Michigan still likely wants a LB/S hybrid with an emphasis on LB. I think you'd take away a lot of Thomas's attributes by building him up too big, and I just don't see LB as a better fit for him. Or for the team for that matter, with the depth and experience the way it currently is at safety.
February 21st, 2014 at 11:03 AM ^
wouldnt it be more that ryan at sam was the best position for him last season given the options at linebacker and the players they want to redshirt? or could be the coaches want to run a slightly different scheme next year with the guys we have?
February 21st, 2014 at 8:23 AM ^
Ok, so this might be a stupid question, but does that mean Des Morgan moves to a different role? I couldnt imagine him just going to the bench his senior year
Maybe I missed something, I don't know
February 21st, 2014 at 9:11 AM ^
He's too good and consistent to keep off the field entirely. Just by the fact that Ryan is unlikely to not play, Morgan's role will change a bit. My guess is he is going back to more of a pure ILB type role where he can come in at MIKE or WILL and Bolden gets kicked outside, but that's just a guess. I'm not sure Morgan really fits well at SAM, so I doubt you see him move out there. You could see more match-up situations at the WILL spot to help out both Morgan and Ross based on their skill sets and limitations as well, which may help the defense going forward.
February 21st, 2014 at 9:37 AM ^
The real downside of Morgan not starting is that one of our few seniors may not be a prominent player. I thought this was a killer this past season. Team leaders need to be guys who are out there every play, leading by example and setting the tone for the other guys. Not Cam Gordon and Courtney Avery. God bless them and everything.
February 21st, 2014 at 10:52 AM ^
Captain, and Senior, ILB Eric Mayes played behind SO ILB Dhani Jones.
February 21st, 2014 at 11:25 AM ^
Kinda. Mayes was injured just a few games into the season. He was the starter (and captain) until then. Mayes was out for the rest of the season after his injury. Jones took advatage of this opportunity and was very good with all that speed.
February 21st, 2014 at 8:23 AM ^
Gone from team? Gone for spring?
February 21st, 2014 at 8:27 AM ^
February 21st, 2014 at 8:31 AM ^
February 21st, 2014 at 8:40 AM ^
February 21st, 2014 at 8:43 AM ^
It does free up a spot. Handing out medical waivers is one of Saban's go-to moves to keep his roster numbers down.
(To be clear: not suggesting this is a roster management move. Obviously Bryant has had an unfortunate history with injuries and there's no reason to believe this is anything but an actual legit medical waiver.)
February 21st, 2014 at 9:05 AM ^
Definitely not a roster management move. SIgning day was a bit ago, and we didn't oversign; we actually banked a scholarship. If you wanted to make the argument that it opened up a scholarship for the 2015 class, I still don't know if I'd be able to see that. Bryant is a RS Junior. After this season, if the staff didn't really want him on the team, they may have parted ways with him graduating after 4 years, and he could've played somewhere on a grad school schollie.
Saban's medicals upset me because his players will still transfer to other good schools and are competetive. Saban has all sorts of creative ways to free up scholarships.
February 21st, 2014 at 6:46 PM ^
I would assume his Scholarship will go to a walk-on, which is always nice to see
February 21st, 2014 at 8:36 AM ^