Sione's Flow

December 29th, 2013 at 2:01 PM ^

I believe Brady Hoke literally bleeds Maize and Blue and would keep him in some capacity at Michigan, he can recruit like a mad man.  He may turn it around in 2014 and 2015 and prove us wrong.  But Borges has shown no ability to adjust to in game situations or call a coherent game plan. 

Joined: 06/05/2011

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steve sharik

December 29th, 2013 at 2:07 PM ^

And that there's a serious attitude problem on the team.  The most damning quote in the article is Frank saying, "If one person doesn't do their job, it affects the whole team. When you've got a bunch of guys who want to buy into that, who want to be part of that family-like atmosphere, then you'll have a great team."

Does that mean we should fire the coach at the first sign of attitude problems?  All top coaches have had teams that underachieved due to attitude, even Bo.  Take 1980, for example.  Bo himself admitted that was a national title team that lost 2 out of its first 3 b/c "The head coach made one classic mistake: he didn't coach attitude like he should." (Bo, The Schembechler Years, 1990)

Nick Saban, too, faces this dilemma on teams.  If he has a young guy with an attidue, however, he essentially cuts the player b/c he's oversigning.  The year Auburn won the NC with Cam Newton, Saban spoke about the attitude problem of that team, that they had a sense of entitlement.  Notice that since then he talks about how that even though last year's team won the title, this year's team hasn't won anything yet.

Hoke has to be given the chance to not only install the talent and schemes, but the attitude, too.  That takes time, as well.  Hoke's just not as cold hearted as the over-signing SEC coaches are.  (Miles happy to do it too, so I don't think Les is a Michigan Man considering he's willing to be unethical in order to win.)

So, even if there's attitude problems, it doesn't mean Hoke should be fired.  The head coach deserves five years, especially in this case since he didn't have the job until only a couple weeks before signing day.

Troubling (if true)? Yes.  Fireable? Not yet.

Joined: 08/08/2009

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SysMark

December 29th, 2013 at 4:06 PM ^

To this day I've always felt the 1980 team may have been the best of the Bo era and any since, and that includes 1997.  The 1980 team not only lost two of the first three, they came within a hair of losing to NW in the opener.  By the end of the seacon they had an unstoppable offense and shutout level defense.  Great season but could have been undefeated if not for the flat start.

Moving forward I agree with everything you're saying.  The problem Brandon has right now is how does you rationalize dropping RichRod after 2010 but cutting Hoke a total pass now?  The situations are starting to look eerily similar.

Don't get me wrong, I'm completely opposed to firing any coach after three years based on W-L but that's a tough one for DB to explain.

Joined: 11/15/2008

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MGoStrength

December 29th, 2013 at 5:07 PM ^

IMO the RR fire was just as much about not "getting UM" as it was about winning.  Don't get me wrong, if RR was winning 10 games every year we would have gotten over the whole part about not understanding UM.  But, his lack of understanding of the UM traditions, his unwillingness to set his ego aside and admit it, and his general attitude and style of doing this was just as much a part of his being fired IMO.  Also, the way he fared so poorly against MSU and OSU hurt too.  This is also why Hoke will be given the benefit of the doubt, in addition to the fact that Brandon hired him, and he's recruiting well.  He may not be beating MSU and OSU every year, but he did beat them both once and played them close in the losses.

Joined: 07/29/2010

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SysMark

December 29th, 2013 at 10:54 PM ^

I agree and I'm really just playing devil's advocate and don't think anyone should be fired at this point.  The RR situation was a trainwreck on too many fronts, the Freep Jihad probably most damaging.  Personally I think this team is likely to pull a major turnaround next year.

For now at least it does leave DB in the position of having to explain to recruits why he won't fire this coach - he would probably be wise right now to say it again.

Joined: 11/15/2008

MGoPoints: 21734

ontarioblue

December 29th, 2013 at 2:36 PM ^

He would have ran across the country for this job. No doubt he would. Reason may also be he knew no other big league school was ever coming to knock on his door. He is a great recruiter. But I am really beginning to wonder if he is a good coach. He always says the right things but at some point talk is nor enough. Give him 1 more year under the condition he changes the coaching culture he has there. If he refuses to make any changes or fails to see the reason for changes, then fire him Monday.

Joined: 06/30/2008

MGoPoints: 16574

Waves

December 29th, 2013 at 3:46 PM ^

The best hire is almost never someone who is so desperate for the job that they would take it no matter what. Top talent can be had but must be wooed because top talent is always in demand. Hoke was a bail-out hire and not considered top shelf by anyone anywhere.

Joined: 11/11/2013

MGoPoints: 1471

MGoStrength

December 29th, 2013 at 5:13 PM ^

I can't see him fired next year unless he wins less than 7 games.  I'd expect him to win 8-9 next year and keep his job for another year.  At that point if there isn't significant improvement then the conversation will get harder, but I can't see how he gets fired next year unless it's a total failure.  Even another year just like this one won't result in his fire IMO.  We may not like it, but Brandon likes him, he recruits well, he says all the right things, and does right by the kids.  Winning eventually has to come too, but all those other things will buy him at least 2 more years unless next year is a total failure IMO.

Joined: 07/29/2010

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michfan6060returns

December 29th, 2013 at 2:21 PM ^

Hmmm I'm confused as to why some people are so sure juiceman is trolling. Sure it could be possible, but judging by the way our team plays I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was telling the truth.

Joined: 09/25/2013

MGoPoints: 418

klctlc

December 29th, 2013 at 3:36 PM ^

Guys/gals This is one of the better posts I have read. Regardless of what you think of juicemans veracity, you have to give him credit for his perspective. I believe juiceman, but also think it is not too big of a deal,. Think back to when you were 22 or whatever, everything seemed larger than life. He is close to a top rated sports program that is on tv every week, he is probably too close. But I find his info very interesting. Howeva! Let's table coaching change discussions until after NSF. I was as pissed last night as any body and for one of the first times really questioned mattison. But recruits read this and other than the ee's they are all free agents. Hoke is not going anywhere, right or wrong. Let's pray for 2 out of 3 next year in south bend, east Lansing or Columbus ( I can dream, right?)

Joined: 09/02/2009

MGoPoints: 2704

bigfan2959

December 29th, 2013 at 3:39 PM ^

This last game has even made me question how true Rich Rod's assertion was that he would have won 11 games in Hokes first season if he remained as coach. After this terrible season I wonder if that's not correct.  Even Mattison does not seem nearly as good after last night,. 

Joined: 01/27/2013

MGoPoints: 160

blueblueblue

December 29th, 2013 at 3:40 PM ^

First time I have seen such a heavily edited thread. Weird. Its fine with me - its the prerogative of the owner and the mods, but its just weird/discomfiting to see. 

Joined: 12/28/2008

MGoPoints: 6630

GoDamnBlue

December 29th, 2013 at 4:25 PM ^

... I'm acquaintances with a few of the players on the team and briefly dated a girl who tutored and is friends with some of the players and I've been told similar things.

Joined: 12/16/2013

MGoPoints: -21

GoDamnBlue

December 29th, 2013 at 4:52 PM ^

... I'm actually not kidding. And this is ultimately the problem with Michigan's fanbase - they believe only what they want to hear. The coaches and powers that be are obviously no different. You want me to name names, give detailed examples with appropriate dates? I can do that. But again, people are only going to believe what they wanna hear... ... And God knows this board is full of people who choose to only see things through Maize & Blue tinted lenses. I'm not saying Hoke is a racist because I haven't heard anything like that, but one integration I had with a bunch of the players at the Brown Jug was very telling.

Joined: 12/16/2013

MGoPoints: -21

Don

December 29th, 2013 at 7:00 PM ^

I assume you meant "interaction," but care to elaborate on what you encountered?

I don't need names myself, but your hint of some sort of team "issues" doesn't mean much without some additional info.

Joined: 06/30/2008

MGoPoints: 148371

GoDamnBlue

December 29th, 2013 at 8:31 PM ^

... I was typing on my iPhone and that piece of junk rarely works right.

Yes, I meant to say "interaction", and no I'm not calling Hoke a racist, haven't heard any of those comments. But last summer I was at the Brown Jug with my then girlfriend (sorry, I'm not putting her name out there) and was in the presence of so many football players I thought I was at Fan Day... and a few things stood out to me:

1) Some of the players weren't nearly as physically imposing as I thought they would be, i.e. Frank Clark, and I'm not a big guy by any means, 

2) No one in the bar even seemed to acknowledge who the players were outside of maybe Denard, who was there (and it was my second time meeting and talking to him - I've got a picture of our first encounter if people don't believe me), and this is a far cry from when I was in undergrad when Henne and Hart were playing and people acted starstruck whenever they entered an establishment, and

3) ... I found it really strange that all the African-American players (Countess, J. Wilson, Darboh, Clark, A.J. Williams, T. Richardson, and there were a few others I can't remember) were on one side of the bar and all the Caucasian ones were on another. I always thought teams that played together, well... played together. When the African American players exited the premises no one said hi or bye to the Caucasian ones (J. Ryan, a tight end who's name I can't remember, and a couple others I recognized but don't know by name). It just seemed kinda odd. 

The girl I dated also said that a lot of the guys have told her that they like Hoke but don't respect him in the same sense that you'd want to fight for him, they don't fear him because he doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. They said it's a pretty easy-going atmosphere, not a lot of intensity. 

No one has to believe what I'm saying but I have nothing to gain by lying to you. I'm just frustrated by what I'm seeing and what feel like what I heard is starting to ring true a bit... So, whatever - downvote, neg away, but this is just some of what I've experienced. 

 

 

 

Joined: 12/16/2013

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MGoStrength

December 29th, 2013 at 4:50 PM ^

At the end of the day this is all just talk from a frustrated player.  It's human nature to vent when you're frustrated or in an emotional state.  I find it hard to beleive that there is a toughness issue because Hoke said at the beginning of the season how much he liked this team and he said over and over how he liked the effort even if he didn't like the result.  He talks toughness all the time and reinforces it.  If kids don't listen that's not on the coaches. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

 

I just think this is a problem when most of your talent is young and your older starters are less talented. It seems like the younger guys are frustrated and the older guys just aren't producing.  There are a handful of older guys producing like Lewan, Schofield, Gallon, etc. But, we have too many average older players and all our talent is young.  I'd expect these things to work themselves out as we get older and more experienced.  Winning cures all things, we just need to win some big games.  Every year the team chemistry is different.  Next season is a new year, a new group, new freshman, new seniors, and maybe even a new coach or two.  I wouldn't worry about this too much.  I'd be worried more about how we develop our offensive line for next year and if we need a different offensive style/identity if the guys aren't capable of run blocking the way the coaches want.

Joined: 07/29/2010

MGoPoints: 20002

ILL_Legel

December 29th, 2013 at 8:34 PM ^

Totally agree. There are 80+ scholarship guys on the team. They are not all going to agree with each other and coach decisions. There are cliques like all large group settings.

A long time ago, I hung out with some of the basketball players (on really good teams) and even with only 15 guys they had internal disagreements and coaching complaints. Most of it was playing time or normal student stuff (e.g. girl conflicts).

I imagine most of us encounter similar stuff at work. Maybe there is more to it in this case, maybe not. Usually, there is not more to it than people being pissed when things don't go their way.

Joined: 08/13/2010

MGoPoints: 4841

MonkeyMan

December 29th, 2013 at 9:28 PM ^

The single most common comment I've read the past two years from various people who watch the sidelines, meet players, interact with the coaches, watch Hoke- is that there is little fire in Hoke or his teams. It is amazing how often versions of this theme come up- I almost never read the opposite. Can football be played with no emotion?

Joined: 10/13/2013

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