CC: Marcus Ray's thoughts on Harbaugh, Miles and Bret (not duplicative of prior board post)
Sam Webb just posted a transcript of his recent discussion with Marcus Ray in which Ray shares his thoughts on some of our perceived leading candidates. Since most of us like Webb, here's the link for those interested:
The short summary of Ray's opinions:
1. Harbaugh - would do well here, get us to 10 wins, likely win some championships, give us a kick in the ass, run the ball (which Ray clearly thinks is critical if you read through the whole article) and improve team mentality. However, he expect that Harbaugh could bolt back to the NFL at some point since he "love coaching more than he loves Michigan." Overall, a fair summary.
2. Les Miles - Ray raises some pretty fair concerns about Les, namely whether he would be able to repeat his success with Michigan's academic standards (which he notes are much higher than LSU by stating that half of LSU's roster wouldnt get in to Michigan). He also notes that while Les' current staff has good recruiting connections in the south, again, the academics might be a problem. Also, age. These are pretty fair criticisms. While Les is a monster recruiter at LSU and does really well with LSU talent, would he recruit as well at Michigan, or coach as well without as much high-speed southern talent? It is a fair question.
3. Bret Bielema - disclaimer: I don't like Bielema, and would not want him to be a coach here. So, I was happy to hear Ray give only a lukewarm reception to the idea, specifically noting that while he would run the ball (again, very important to Ray), and would do well in the Big Ten, he might not do as well out out of the conference. He also noted the perception that he has some shady tactics on the field (likely a reference to having a player try to remove one of Steve Breaston's legs), and can be viewed as a meathead.
Also, sure to start debate in these parts, Ray pretty much says that he wouldn't want a coach running the spread, as it only works in the south. Obviously, that is far from true, but in light of Hackett's statement to the team re: spread coaching, it is likely not an issue.
Nothing earth shattering, but an interesting read for those of us who are glued to our computers hitting F5 for going on 3 days now.
December 5th, 2014 at 1:40 PM ^
It sucks you wrote all of that to be 2nd. +1 informative though.
December 5th, 2014 at 1:47 PM ^
I thought that at first, as well, but these are actually totally different. The post below mine is re: Ray's interview on 105.1 in which he discusses a former players' call with Hackett and some other topics. Mine is about an article from Webb discussing the positives and negatives of three top candidates.
December 5th, 2014 at 1:48 PM ^
No, he did it the right way. There are too many people on here who derive some strange pleasure from being the first to post something. This post is far more informative and helpful and should be the model for sharing news.
December 5th, 2014 at 2:03 PM ^
Even if this were essentially a duplicate of the first thread regarding Ray's thoughts (and it clearly is not, of course), I can guarantee you that this is the thread that would stay up simply because of the quality and helpful summaries. Actually, it happens rather a lot in faster news cycles like the coaching search that the first thread is a one sentence summary or "title says it all" deal, not a deliberate, thoughtful piece.
After all, four people yesterday were the first to post a summary of Colin Cowherd's thoughts because those would never have a chance of making the board the moment he finished the sentence, right? RIGHT?
December 5th, 2014 at 2:51 PM ^
This was a great post and the OP should be proud.
December 5th, 2014 at 5:37 PM ^
December 5th, 2014 at 1:41 PM ^
December 5th, 2014 at 2:37 PM ^
December 5th, 2014 at 6:40 PM ^
of what Matt thinks it right
December 5th, 2014 at 1:44 PM ^
Comparatively speaking, I do appreciate all you wrote though.
December 5th, 2014 at 1:46 PM ^
How do people who obviously know a bit about football (like Ray) continue to believe something as stupid as the spread only works in the south? Has he watched OSU play lately?
I mean it's so dumb it makes me question everything else the guys says.
December 5th, 2014 at 1:53 PM ^
Oregon and Philadelphia are both south of Canada.
December 5th, 2014 at 2:16 PM ^
Seriously. It's like he's somehow missed the last 4 OSU games. Or the Appalachian State game. Or every game ever against a mobile QB. How does this garbage possibly continue to exist?
December 5th, 2014 at 2:34 PM ^
I was hoping someone else had picked up on this too. I have no preference on offensive scheme (different ways to skin a cat), but when Ray said the spread doesn't work in the north, I starting yelling in my car.
Also, I don't understand the notion that Miles may not do as well with less talent at Michigan. We see it time and time again in the college game: coaching makes all the difference regardless of talent level. As an example, Lane Kiffin had some very talented players at USC (same or better levels than LSU), but they underperformed. Miles sustained Saban level results at LSU over the long term. He's a great coach and trying to argue that points to more of a personal dislike than reviewing the facts.
December 5th, 2014 at 2:38 PM ^
Dont want to be heretical but Ray's comments increasingly come off as self serving justifications of his own history and, to a lesser extent, a justification of a bygone era of football. A Big Ten analyst dismissing the spread while stressing the need to run the ball is incredibly damning and I wonder to what degree mindsets like Ray's within the ranks of former players creates the toxic environment we've all heard referenced for so very long.
December 5th, 2014 at 6:29 PM ^
December 5th, 2014 at 2:57 PM ^
All that spread happy stuff, get that out of here, it works only in warm climates. I guess OSU not losing a regular season Big 10 game in three years is just an illusion.
December 5th, 2014 at 3:38 PM ^
I've seen the spread work in Windsor and its glorious.
But we are too far north to make it work...
December 5th, 2014 at 6:51 PM ^
Ray also said somewhere, I think BTN, that Hoke won in 2011 with LC's players, not Rich Rod's. I have a feeling I can guess where his disdain for the spread comes from.
December 6th, 2014 at 6:25 AM ^
I saw that too: First he said, when RR took over the "cupboard was bare" and that was one of the reason for all the losses. But later, he said that Hoke's first season was due to Carr's players not RR's. Don't know how he imagines that Hoke won with players from the bare cupboard, unless he's implying RR coached them up to be stars for Hoke -- which I doubt he was.
December 6th, 2014 at 12:12 AM ^
when you stop and realize that the spread pioneers came from the Midwest (Randy Walker, Urban Meyer), the Northeast (Chip Kelly) and West Virginia, which sure as hell ain't warm and Southern.
But yeah, it can't work in bad weather. Obviously you have to try and recruit pro style passers to try to throw on point passes deep down the field in the cold and wind to succeed in the Big 10.
December 5th, 2014 at 1:46 PM ^
He can't be serious. Am I right to say that MOST D-1 FBS teams now run some variation of the spread and NOT pro-style? It works in the SEC, Big 12, Pac 12, and even the BIG 10 (see the best team in the conference - Ohio St.).
That's a ridiculous comment if he said that, and honestly, would warrant him losing quite a bit of credibility.
December 5th, 2014 at 1:58 PM ^
Not only that...last I checked, you can actually run the ball out of the spread and pistol and any other spread type of offense. Heck, we ran the ball pretty well in the 2008 Capital One Bowl game vs. Florida when we went to that spread-style design for that lone day.
December 5th, 2014 at 2:39 PM ^
The spread works at Ohio State and Bowling Green, but not at Toledo or Michigan. The spread stops working north of Perrysburg. It's a scientific fact.
December 5th, 2014 at 1:47 PM ^
Bert*
December 5th, 2014 at 1:53 PM ^
I've listened to a lot of Ray has said in recent years. And it's clear he has no idea what the fuck it takes to succedd in college football anymore.
December 5th, 2014 at 1:53 PM ^
I've listened to a lot of Ray has said in recent years. And it's clear he has no idea what the fuck it takes to succedd in college football anymore.
December 5th, 2014 at 2:06 PM ^
you said this twice because its right. Ray is a dinosaur and I've heard his Al Bundy Stories about the teams he was on 100 times. When i hear him on the radio, I change it.
December 5th, 2014 at 2:28 PM ^
You can say that again!
December 5th, 2014 at 1:54 PM ^
The spread only works in the South thing is a crock of shit. It's running the damn option a different way. Which is what Bo did for a long time, Crisler did before him. Michigan has only been "Pro-style" since about the mid 80s (surprise, Harbaugh was the QB!)
December 5th, 2014 at 2:48 PM ^
offense is that it ran the ball a particular way to suit a system Bo liked. In fact, Michgian frequently changed its offense under Bo, based mostly on whatever seemed to work best at the time across country. Michigan ran option, wishbone, fullhouse and split backfields. It ran formations with two tight ends or more under Harbaugh. Watch his tributes by Wolverine Historian and how Michigan's bread and butter plays were passes to crossing tight ends, backs out of the backfield and occasional deep throws.
It was under Moeller and Carr that Michigan's offense evolved from a dominant running game with quarterback options to a dropback passing attack.
Bo was concerned with results and production and effiiciency, and believed running the ball was crucial but he wasn't tied to a particular system in running the ball. He felt that the system ought to fit the players you have on hand and best matches their proficiecy and skill level.
So, Harbaugh becomes a dropback passer in the NFL because that it what the system was among most teams.
Making certain guys conform to a system instead of allowing their strengths to enhance whatever offense they are best at running makes them more efficient and effective.
And, of course, we saw how the failure to reconcile this has worked out for Michigan with two spread quarterbacks forced to become dropback passers to suit a particular blocking scheme and system. The difference between this and the Michigan past is defining yourself and then recruiting to whatever style you run without change.
December 5th, 2014 at 1:54 PM ^
I immediately run away. Dude is clueless on so many things.
December 5th, 2014 at 3:43 PM ^
Moe if you come back to this thread do you have any feel on the CC? You had some info quicker than anyone on the AD situation.
December 5th, 2014 at 1:54 PM ^
I am sure that he will leave the program in good hands.
December 5th, 2014 at 1:55 PM ^
This is my one worry about Les. I think he probably has more than a few guys on his LSU team that "ain't come here to play school". And while many of our athletes wound't be able to get into Michigan without their athletic ability, the difference between our admissions office and those at other schools (save for Stanford and a few others), is pretty stark.
That said, Brady recruited well, so Les should be able to as well. And his age doesn't bother me. Dude looks 15 years younger than he is.
December 5th, 2014 at 2:30 PM ^
I'm not sure this is actually true. I think as long as a player can qualify based on NCAA standards Michigan will take them. I know that Hoke tended to not recruit kids that he thought were marginal to qualify, but I understood that as more of a preference (not wanting to waste time / a spot) and not an institutional higher standard. Unless the presumption is that LSU has some UNC type deal going on to keep athletes eligible that Michigan doesn't have.
I could be wrong, but this is my understanding.
December 5th, 2014 at 4:57 PM ^
while we might be able to get a few barely qualifying players in, as RichRod found out quickly, that number is small and weigh fewer than Miles is used to recruiting.
December 5th, 2014 at 8:51 PM ^
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December 5th, 2014 at 9:39 PM ^
I can't remember which all-america game it was, but I saw a kid this year commit to "the University of LSU". I can't see that kid getting into Michigan.
December 5th, 2014 at 1:55 PM ^
I think Michigan will have trouble CONSISTENTLY getting players who can make the spread work . I love the spread but think we'd be better off bing more like Sparty and Wisconsin-- or Alabam (ha ha). Man ball that works.
December 5th, 2014 at 2:20 PM ^
So, is OSU going to have trouble consistently running it? If so, I must have missed the start of their backslide.
December 5th, 2014 at 2:40 PM ^
Totally agree, is there something about OSU's offense right now that we would not LOVE to have? OSU ran the ball right over our "Manball" defense in late November many years counting. Miss St. would do the same, probably much more effectively than MSU. I hope the new coach will be more open to this versus the "coaching search consultants."
December 5th, 2014 at 1:55 PM ^
I think Michigan will have trouble CONSISTENTLY getting players who can make the spread work . ie our kids are too slow. I love the spread but think we'd be better off being more like Sparty and Wisconsin-- or Alabam (ha ha). Man ball that works.
December 5th, 2014 at 1:58 PM ^
Even if Harbaugh gave us just three years I would still want him.
The potential coaching tree he could leave is half of his appeal.
December 5th, 2014 at 2:10 PM ^
I swear to god if the University of Alaska wins 6 straight D-1 national championships running a 4 WR passing spread there would still be dudes who whine that's its magically ineffective north of the Kansas border.
Does no one pay attention to the fact that TCU went from a .500 squad to a national championship contender from Patterson's grudgingly installing a spread this past offseason?
December 5th, 2014 at 9:45 PM ^
Pro-style is really spread to pass now. I'm not sold on read-option due to broken quarterback syndrome, but it's hard to argue the success of throwing to multiple targets.
December 5th, 2014 at 2:02 PM ^
Why would Les' recruiting be questioned? When has Michigan ever struggled to recruit when there's been stability? Only times we've had a hard time were late RR era and when it became obvious Hoke was gone. We've been fine recruiting every other year from what I can tell. Problem is development.
I just don't get people questioning wheher a guy that has won a national championship and multiple SEC titles can recruit at a big school like Michigan. Obviously he'd have to adjust what kids he goes after, but it's not like 100% of LSU commits would not qualify for Michigan. It's probably just a handful each class.
December 5th, 2014 at 3:44 PM ^
Since Les Miles became head coach at LSU the average recruiiting rank for Rivals is #9 for LSU and #11 for UM. #11 for UM is with 2 coaching transition years thrown in (07, 11)
So basically 1 (or 2) players in a class of 22 under Les would be a 3 star instead of a 4 star. How would we survive?
Lots of reasons to question Les but the massive drop off in recruiting is not an issue. Dude is one of the top 10 brand names in CFB - every kid knows who he is. No one knew who Hoke was nationally before he showed up here. Les would bring both school brand and his own personal brand, something only a handful of coaches can do.
That said I dont think Les gets offered for various other reasons.
December 5th, 2014 at 2:05 PM ^
Butch Jones currently runs a spread offense, when Marcus Ray was on staff with him at Central they ran a spread, a very successful spread offense, his comments are nonsense, I will never understand the endless disdain for running the myriad versions of spread offenses at Michigan.
December 5th, 2014 at 2:05 PM ^
in the Big Ten. Granted, Purdue didn't become dominant, but he did show that a team can win a championship with it before Rodriguez even took over at WVU.