CC: A thread for people who still support RR
Comrades,
We may be in the extreme minority now, but I think there should be at least one thread on this board for people who believe in the spread offense and believe in what RR is building here. Let Harbaugh go to the NFL, and have DB force RR to fire the entire defensive staff, including his cherished colleagues from the WVU days. Our offense is still improving, and our defense can only get better.
If Harbaugh does indeed go to the NFL -- which is at least a possibility at this point -- the likely outcome is that DB keeps RR. Let's make sure that RR knows that we're behind him and are rooting for his success.
January 3rd, 2011 at 1:04 PM ^
of full recruiting classes and managed to pull more starters from his month after he was hired than LC did with who he brought in. The lack of quality upperclassman has been what has really hurt RR and the program as a whole.
Bring in Heater and keep Tall as the D line has been a bright spot. Then we need a secondary coach (Bedford, Brown, Austin). Make RR promise to let the D coordinator do his thing without any interference and see what happens. Potential is there and almost everyone is coming back.
January 3rd, 2011 at 1:06 PM ^
I support him too.
Bob Ryan will now ask you a question.
What if I told you that you would lose for 2 years, go 7-6 one year and then become a national powerhouse...now would that be something you might be interested in?
January 3rd, 2011 at 2:28 PM ^
It's not like he had to start a brand new D1 football program like Edsall at UConn. He took over an established D1 football power.
January 3rd, 2011 at 5:35 PM ^
I am with you His Dueness. Next year could have been the break out year we had been patiently waiting for. Now we will trash it for the next best thing, who may not even want to come after all. Be careful what you wish for.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:09 AM ^
this thread is hanging by a thread...scissors please!!
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:11 AM ^
I support 52-14 shallackings also.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:14 AM ^
and I even know how to spell shellacking.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:23 AM ^
give me a break, theres been no reason to use the word till now.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:41 AM ^
if you can't spell it you shouldn't use it
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:42 AM ^
Use a different word then
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:14 AM ^
But must admit, I really wonder, will anything be enough to satisfy those who don't like him? I've always been one to say, let him stand on his own two feet, he's a big boy and doesn't need cheerleaders. But if RR stays, two things need to happen:
- DB & MSC & LC need to loudly, vocally, and publicly support RR.
- RR needs to be less stubborn, and allow for wholesale changes to at least the defense and special teams.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:24 AM ^
(RR) doesn't need cheerleaders. But if RR stays, two things need to happen:
- DB & MSC & LC need to loudly, vocally, and publicly support RR.
So, he doesn't need cheerleaders but the AD, University President and former coach all need to become cheerleaders? Your first sentence is a good laugher too:
I really wonder, will anything be enough to satisfy those who don't like him?
What has he done that should have satisfied even the people that DO like him (ignoring that fact that people oppose RR because he's done a bad job, not because they don't "like" him)? Were you satisfied by his record in any season he coached here? Of course not. Were you satisfied by the worst defense we've ever seen? Were you satisfied by an offense that got shut down against good competition? Were you satisfied with truly "special" teams? Were you satisfied by all the attrition? Were you satisfied by the worst bowl loss in Michigan history? How many "worsts" does the guy need in the record book before you become dissatisfied?
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:59 AM ^
I was at Michigan in 1993 when they went 7-4 in the regular seasonand it was some of the most fun I've had as a Michigan fan. That year they lost to Notre Dame, Michigan State, and Wisconsin. True, they hammered Ohio State, but it was a great season. Ignoring the bowl game (which they won that year), does 7-4 with a win over OSU satisfy you? Because it sure satisfied me.
How about 1994? They went 7-4 in the regular season again and included the Hail Mary loss to Colorado, which was the worst loss I've experienced in person (I was not at the HORROR). That season included losses to PSU, Wisconsin and OSU. Would that have satisfied you if Rodriguez had been the coach?
January 3rd, 2011 at 2:33 PM ^
Did they get blown out by 20+ points in all of those losses? Did they beat any ranked teams? I believe that people would be much happier about the future of RR leading our team if we would have lost the games to OSU, both MSU's, and Wisconsin by close margins.
January 3rd, 2011 at 6:46 PM ^
We lost to much better teams, with much more experienced players. The problem isn't the losses to ranked teams. The problem is that the expectations are too high for a team starting mostly freshman and sophomore players.
We lost to OSU, Wisconsin, and MSU because they have a depth chart that allows them to start a lot of upperclass players. RR took over a program that had horrible depth. If he had good depth, when taking over, we would see mostly juniors and seniors starting at this point.
If RR does get fired and Harbaugh or any other coach comes in here and has success, fans will assume the coach changed everything. They had better get on their knees and thank RR for the roster he put into place. There is real young talent on this team now and it will only get better thanks to experience.
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:17 PM ^
Several comments in response.
- I think RR in all likelihood is gone. We'll find out later this week.
- My feeling on "cheerleading" has changed. I believe that the negativity has weakened RR, and in the unlikely event that he remains, he needs public support.
- I used to think that wins would be enough to change people's minds. I no longer think so. Regarding defense, special teams being terrible, you are correct. It is possible that if RR stays, DB would have much more input in strengthening these areas. And that RR would be more receptive. Who knows.
- In the final analysis, I think RR may have tried to do too much. He may have been better off leaving much of the defense intact with the coaching staff present when he arrived. I don't know. I always thought that he needed four years, but I think he has been so compromised, that might not be enough.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:13 AM ^
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:36 AM ^
I like Rich Rod a lot, and do think (given the opportunity) that he could definitely turn us into a national championship contender year in and year out. However, there is simply no way that we can keep him now. We have backed ourselves into a corner with holding out the decision until now. I thought we should have come out and given him resounding support and assurance a month ago. We didn't.
DB simply cannot bring him back without losing credibility, even if it would be the best decision. If RR came back, it would be extremely tough sledding on the recruiting trail...and we could easily be in the same situation next year (even though I do see a SUCCESSFUL 2011 if RR was coach).
All in all, Rich did not get a fair shake. He ran into a bad situation, without adequate support. Unfortunately, he has to go.
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:30 PM ^
And if we fire him after 3 season, I think we become Notre Dame. Continuity and experienced players will make a world of difference next year.
January 3rd, 2011 at 1:04 PM ^
No, we become Notre Dame if we keep an inept coach around for too long (see Charlie Weis).
January 3rd, 2011 at 2:13 PM ^
No, we become Notre Dame when we fire a coach after 3 years because there's a hot coaching prospect available for us that says we're his dream job and our current guy "isn't a good fit," "can't recruit," and can't win with his true freshmen and sophomore QB named Quinn/Robinson.
Then when the hot guy shuns us (much to our dismay because "This is Michigan"), we have to scramble to find a replacement and we end up with our Weis who proceeds to win with the fired coach's guys and we all hail him as the savior and give him an extension without knowing if it's him or the remains from the previous guy.
January 3rd, 2011 at 3:14 PM ^
Ah, so Ty Willingham really just needed more time. I believe Washington fans would like a word with you.
January 3rd, 2011 at 4:28 PM ^
Pretty sure Ty would've done fine with a Jr/Sr Brady Quinn, just like Weiss did.
January 3rd, 2011 at 3:47 PM ^
Just make sure it's a ridiculous 10 year extension after a close loss.
January 3rd, 2011 at 6:49 PM ^
Yes an inept coach who has won several championships and bowl games! Real smart comparing RR and his track record to that of Charlie Weis. Makes you look real knowledgeable.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:13 AM ^
Even if RR were to get this team to WVU-like condition, he still only had .400 something record against ranked programs before coming to M. This is compared to .700 something for Lloyd Carr.
<br>
<br>Sorry, but that just won't cut it at M. This was just a mistake by Bill Martin, and all we can do at this point is cut our losses and move on.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:14 AM ^
I will support this team no matter what. No matter who is the coach. So, sure, I get this.
But I've been an ardent RichRod supporter since day one. I no longer think he can get it done. If he's the coach, I'll back him, but I will be very disappointed this off-season.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:15 AM ^
Just stop. After the Gator Bowl my friends and I agreed that it is nearly impossibile to support RR now. We've defended him to everyone but after the last few months it became just too difficult. What in the past three years has shown you that Rich will win in Ann Arbor?
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:20 AM ^
We knew the defense stunk pre-Gator Bowl. It still stunk.
We knew the kicking game stunk pre-Gator Bowl. It still stunk.
We knew the offense was explosive, but had a first-year starter who occassionally makes bad decisions and receivers who drop their share of passes. That happened again.
I think DB should have decided pre-Gator Bowl, one way or the other, as 36 games worth of data should not be changed by one more data point. Perhaps he did make his decision and just hasn't told us. But for me, all the same things apply - it's a young team which should only get better next year. I want Michigan to be good (9 or more wins) next year. I'm not down for another 1-3 years of rebuilding.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:31 AM ^
The Gator Bowl didn't necessarily change my view, it just confirmed it. I was trying my best to still think RR was the future but he's not. After three years we should be a lot better than what we are right now.
Regarding the kicking game, why has it been so bad the last three years? Perhaps its because we don't have a kicking coach that can actually develop our kickers. Why hasn't RR done anything about this? Noobody complains about this more than my friend... who was a kicker on the team... for both LC and RR.
Regarding the defense. It has regressed. Our defense has gotten worse each year for the past three years.
Regarding the offense. I love Denard and think he is great for the program but our offense is so terribly overrated. Our points differential between b10 opponents has actually gotten worse over the last three years.
So, no. It wasn't the Gator Bowl that changed my mind it just confirmed how bad we are. I wanted to think we've made significant progress but we weren't even that good this year and our program is the laughingstock to the rest of the country, especially in big 10 country. If you're okay with that then I let's keep RR. But geez, I just don't even know how you can support RR as our long-term coach anymore.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:52 AM ^
Fair enough if the Gator Bowl didn't change your view, but you said you had defened RR but now couldn't - that seemed to me like it changed you, but perhaps not.
Kicking game - as has been discussed elsewhere, basically no one else has a kicking coach. We are not unusual. I find it hard to blame RR for recruiting a top-10 kicker and later finding he can barely make an XP, when that's what other programs hope to do. Jason Olesnavage, a senior walk-on was good last year (11-15 FG, 42-43 XP). This year, our Ks sucked. I think RR (or any coach) had little do with either.
Defense - I know we all want to fast-foward to when they're older (i.e., next season), but they're still smaller/slower/not experienced enough. Plus, it's easy to "regress" when the competition gets harder. If we had ended the year with Purdue, Minnesota and Iowa (instead of two Top 10 programs and a program that will end up in the Top 15), they would have magically seemed better. Finally, we all agree Gerg was a disaster - that can't be fixed until next year.
Offense - did Denard improve from his freshman year? Does it stand to reason, after one year of starting, he'd improve again? QB is the most important position in this offense (I know it's important in any offense, but particularly in this one where he runs/passes and makes those decisions on the fly). The offense was good this year. Just b/c it wasn't Oregon or Auburn doesen't change that. Plus, they tend to pale in comparison to competing offenses, who seem to do really well - unfortunately, Michigan's O can't play this year's D.
I want to win next year. I didn't like losing to Toledo, losing 3 straight times to MSU, etc, but I want to win going forward. If DB wanted to punish RR based on that, he should have fired him after the OSU game.
Laughingstock - people only care about wins. Is Texas (5-7) a laughingstock? They were in the NC game literally one year ago. Things change and I believe they would have (I'm assuming RR is gone).
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:59 AM ^
I was already on the edge after the season ended with very disappointing losses to Wisconsin and OSU. As others have said, it isn't the loss that bothers me, it is the way we lost those games.
MSU is a middle of the pack SEC team (4-4) that absolutely trashed us. I still believe RR is an excellent coach but I think it's time to admit he might not be a good fit for UM.
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:08 PM ^
Auburn
LSU
Alabama
Arkansas
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:17 PM ^
Memphis, Georgia, Alcorn State, Houston, Florida, UAB, Kentucky, Mississippi.
Do any of those wins thoroughly impress you? Look at how close most of those game were. We got blown out by this team!
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:55 PM ^
Going into the swamp and dominating the Gators.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:15 AM ^
I'm going to assume we'll have plenty of room.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:21 AM ^
It's just not working. For three years I've lied to myself, and stood up for Rod until I was blue in the face. He just needs time, it was a transformation, the cupboard was bare, injuries, transfers, youth, needs to graduate a class and on and on and on.
As a Cleveland fan it was the same thing with Braylon Edwards. His QBs are terrible, people hate him because he went to Michigan, he's had a new head coach or offensive coordinator every year, he just needs to get his confidence back. Then I finally realized that while Braylon was my favorite Mich player, he's just an asshole that doesn't catch the ball consistently, then blames everyone except himself for it.
It's been a square peg in a round hole, it's not working, there are too many things working against him at this point. He has broken all of the wrong records. I also can't get over his stubborness in forcing the 3-3-5 on both coordinators that he has had. He was stubborn in thinking that any defense is fine in the Big Ten and that he could outscore his opponent when there has been nothing but overwhelming evidence that this is not the case. I also can't stand him recruiting players that he should have easily known didn't have a chance in hell of getting admitted into the university.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:28 AM ^
I've gone through the exact same thing with RR and BE. I am done with both.
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:38 PM ^
While I don't agree with some of what you said, I think you make an interesting and thoughtful comparison, so thanks for posting that.
I agree on BE - he seems like a smart, well-meaning (e.g., UM scholarships) guy who has some real personality and decision-making flaws. His DUI was inexcusable.
However, from a football standpoint, it's interesting to see where he is now. He left Cleveland (who just had another poor season and fired their coach) and is now the leading receiver (yds and TDs) for an 11-5 Jets team. I can understand not rooting for him b/c of his "me-me-me" personality, but from a football standpoint, he's proven Cleveland fans wrong (in thinking that he doesn't catch the ball; he's still a distraction).
To compare it to RR, many people (w some good justification) want him gone from UM. When/if that happens, it will be interesting to see if he's successful elsewhere, while UM is still not acheiving what we want b/c we couldn't find a way to make it work.
Interesting point: BE is known for dropping passes; it gets brought up all the time (e.g., PTI, msg boards). Do you know who leads the NFL this year?
BE vs Wes Welker is a perfect example of how an image can be put in the media's/fan's heads and it can be off. Welker is see as a gritty, sure-handed possession receiver; BE is seen as a flashy guy who will get yards, but will drop one pass (minimum) a game. While there is factual justification for some of that (BE has dropped passes in the past; Welker is "gritty"), it's not true now (e.g., BE is not in the Top 25 in drops now). Things change.
January 3rd, 2011 at 2:08 PM ^
However, you have to admit that the issue of drops as a stat is purely subjective. There aren't any guidelines for what counts as a drop. Plus I didn't mention drops from a purely statistical basis, I just said he never catches the ball consistently which I don't think can be argued.
Braylon has only had 100 receiving yards in one game this year, and he failed to get a touchdown in the last 5 games of the year.
Plus you can't tell me that Braylon has made a 3rd overall draft choice impact. I may be a little harsh on Braylon because I was so excited when we drafted him, and I expected him to do great things. Getting a DUI in a city with 2 million cabs after your friend killed another human being with his car while being under the influence (Stallworth) is inexcusable.
January 3rd, 2011 at 3:25 PM ^
1) I agree drops are subjective (like errors in baseball). I also agree BE isn't Jerry Rice or Jason Avant in terms of consistent sticky fingers. I just thought it interesting that he's not even close to the top of drops this year (and I don't believe he was last year), which suggests while he's not the best in terms of catching consistency, he's also far from the worst.
Also, BE had a TD in yesterday's game and 100 yards and I think 80 yards the two games before that, so he's been productive late in the year.
2) It's really rare for any receiver to have enough impact to be a Top 5 draft pick b/c they are so dependent on their QB (look at Larry Fitzgerald right now). You could argue Calvin Johnson (a #2 pick) wasn't even worth it, and he's been more consistent. BE is worthy of #1 draft choice, but I would have said closer to #30 than #1.
3) BE's mistakes/poor judgement is documented and disappointing. However, his punching someone in the face and getting a DUI make him more like Jim Harbaugh than RR. Just something to think about.
(JH punched Jim Kelly in the face in the late '90s; he got a DUI in San Diego).
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:15 AM ^
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:42 AM ^
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:16 AM ^
At this point I'm basically indifferent between RR and Harbaugh provided that the new DC gets to be dictator.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:34 AM ^
I hate to see someone else reap the reward for RR's work in the fourth year.
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:28 PM ^
It is not possible to use the not enough time arguement. It is impossible to use the youth arguement to defend the record. Coach Rodriguez has failed, up to this point, and a good deal of the blame falls to him. Ahh, but I still believe that he will turn it around. He still is a brilliant football coach and a true character builder. The kids we have now make me so proud to be a fan. I do not believe that it always takes 4 years to rebuild a program because it does not. If you make all the right moves and catch a few breaks, you can have success quicker. If you make some mistakes and catch miserable breaks, it will take longer... Because he has not had success does not mean that he will not in the future. I believe that RR is the best choice for the long term future of the program.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:16 AM ^
I don't think at this point that it matters to RR what his supporters believe. The only people that matter to RR are David Brandon and the people that he reports to. We're completely irrelevant, really.
It would take a guy with real balls to bring RR back now, since the pro-RR constituency among those who DB listens to has to be tiny by now.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:18 AM ^
I am barely on this side right now. I think they can get by if they overhaul the defense. This team will have an offense of Upperclassmen for the first time for RR. The loss of D Hart will make the firing easier for me to take, but I will say I think RR deserves another year.
People are living in the moment and letting the media momentum change what you thought about this situation at the beginning of the year. The bowl game was horrible and made me really cringe, but how is the worst defense in M history going to change in the last month?
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:18 AM ^
I will always support Michigan. And I too have been in the let's see what RR can do with another year of his guys in the system. We all hated John Navarre - and he wasn't too good as a red shirt freshman QB. But, he is the answer to the trivia question - name the last UM QB to beat Ohio State..... Point is DR is still young, his offense around him is young. I do think there is a possibility that our O could become very good.
However as we know the D was terrible, but what scares me the most, is that I thought Miss St was bigger, faster, stronger, than Michigan. Where is our S&C program? I thought Bawris and his pack of wolves were suppose to make our kids super heros?
I haven't seen it...
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:18 AM ^
This team has dealt with some of the worst roster situations imaginable, not to mention all the external program bullshit, and still improved the last two seasons. Give him 18 returning starters and Rodriguez shuts up the whining fanbase.
I think if RR was gone no matter what he would already be gone. DB just wants to flirt with Harbaugh. Hopefully Jim takes his talents to South Beach (errrrr, the NFL) and the people who claim to have Michigan's best interests at heart can spend less time bitching about losses and more time supporting a very promising young team.