Semi-OT: Tom Brady greatest ever discussion
This has been discussed a lot over the years but I think Tom Brady's play this year should bring it back into legit discussion. I always hear that Peyton is the best QB in the NFL and that Tom is 1.B - but I see it completely different and this season is another reason why.
Tom is performing surgery on the best defenses in the NFL. Without Randy Moss. Who really only gave Brady one season before he stopped being Moss half the time. Peyton has always had receivers and always played in a dome. Brady has had 4 Superbowl appearances with only one of those where he had great receivers to help him, and it was a juggernaut.
Now he is surrounded by youth and a bunch of hard working but not elite in talent counterparts. Look at the results. He is obliterating the best defenses in the league.
It didn't take long after Brady got his knee mashed up and everyone was putting Peyton back on the top of the list and people were calling Brady a system QB etc etc.. Also there were those that said he would never be the same ala Carson Palmer. Yet after a little over a year he looks just like 2007 Tom Brady. All while Peyton has looked frustrated by his lack of talent to play with because of injuries.
I think Peyton is one of the greatest, but I think Tom is 1.A while Peyton is 1.B -- I even think Tom has done enough to be put in the discussion with Joe Montana.
Another note is this is a young team. A team with a ton of draft picks and very good young talent on an emerging defense. Belichick blew it all up and started most of it over so he could do it all over again. He thought long term and I think its going to pay off big. IMO this team is about to be the team to beat for the next 5 years in the AFC.
December 13th, 2010 at 1:30 PM ^
Whatever. Pete and repeat went up the hill. Pete cam down who was left?
December 12th, 2010 at 6:46 PM ^
If you want mechanics, charisma, and a rifle arm, Manning is your man. If you want a winner who knows how to get to the Super Bowl and win, then Brady has to get the nod. Can we use Giselle as a "tie-breaker?"
December 12th, 2010 at 6:50 PM ^
December 12th, 2010 at 7:06 PM ^
Yeah... It's pretty tough to look at Tom right now and say anyone has a stronger arm, more charisma, or better mechanics/accuracy.
December 12th, 2010 at 6:51 PM ^
December 12th, 2010 at 7:02 PM ^
Joe Montana:
4 Super Bowls, 4 Super Bowl wins, 11 TD, 0 picks in those 4 SBs. Two of those SBs before Jerry Rice.
Tom Brady has had a wonderful, outstanding career, but if there's a big game to be won, I want Joe Montana under center over any other QB I've seen over the last 30 years (I'm 36 and I'm not about to start lecturing about Bradshaw, Unitas, etc.)
December 12th, 2010 at 7:10 PM ^
You know... after looking at Montana's number in the Super Bowl and considering the fact that he never lost one, I think he's still over and above anyone, including Tom. Brady's still got some years to catch him, though.
December 12th, 2010 at 8:01 PM ^
I'm with you. I lived in the bay area during Joe's glory years and watched almost every game the niners played from 83-89. I love Brady and see an awful lot of Montana in his game but I still put Joe on top. No better clutch QB I've ever seen and I'm old enough to have seen Unitas, Starr, Tarkenton (very underrated for the same reasons we love Montana and Brady), Bradshaw, Staubach, Marino, Montana and Brady.
But the OP is right on one thing - Tom is definitely in the conversation!
December 12th, 2010 at 8:56 PM ^
But he had the greatest receiver of all time, and Taylor, and Craig, and great O-lines and TEs, and an underrated defense with the likes of Ronnie Lott, among others. Steve Young showed you could win with that team.
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<br>Best QB I've seen was John Elway. Got to 3 Super Bowls with teams that wouldn't have even made the playoffs without him (quick, name me the HoFers on those earlier teams), had the biggest rifle ever, could scramble, led all those comebacks, and when he finally had a pretty good team around him, won 2 in a row and retired (having played in 5).
December 12th, 2010 at 10:57 PM ^
is to have a play-off.
(In case of a tie, we discuss haircuts and wives.)
December 12th, 2010 at 7:01 PM ^
I just hope that they can finish unlike the 2007 team. There is something about this team. The way they are playing right now, they just seem like they have "it". I am Bears fan, and they crushed us today.
December 12th, 2010 at 7:43 PM ^
How can you have this discussion, today, without mentioning DREW STANTON?
Honorable mention, at least.
December 12th, 2010 at 7:49 PM ^
that Peyton Manning is better than Tom Brady and I love Tom Brady.
Peyton Manning's playoff numbers are much better than most people realized.
I don't consider Super Bowl rings when in discussion for greatest QB of all time because it's a function of a team rather than individual. It takes 22 players on both side of the field to win a Super Bowl, not 1.
December 12th, 2010 at 8:19 PM ^
His knowledge of the game and command of the offense is astounding. He's one of the few non-Steelers I can actually stand watching. Simply amazing.
In terms of being clutch Ben Roethlisberger has to be number one. Dude escapes so many tackles/sack attempts, puts up good numbers, and IIRC has the most come-from-behind victories in the league since he became a starter in 2004.
December 12th, 2010 at 8:34 PM ^
December 12th, 2010 at 8:42 PM ^
Better comparison in basketball I think
Chamberlin vs Russel - Raw talent vs rings. Lots and lots of rings.
December 12th, 2010 at 9:23 PM ^
You mean lots and lots of difference in the surrounding talent.
December 12th, 2010 at 9:04 PM ^
Could escape his tackles/sack attempts.
<br>Hey-O!
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<br>Looks like the Steelers will have another shot to try and beat Brady this post season though...
December 12th, 2010 at 11:02 PM ^
They carved us up in the first appearance, this one should be in NE, and our OL and DL have been slammed by injuries. Not good.
December 13th, 2010 at 12:59 PM ^
Still only one game with 3 left....it's not impossible for home field. The problem is it seems NE has done better against the Steeler in Pittsburgh than anybody else has. But defense comes through in the playoffs, and the Pats are still a work in progress there.
December 12th, 2010 at 9:01 PM ^
All the way back to college Peyton has come up small when the pressure is on. Last Year's Super Bowl INT was not an outlier.
December 12th, 2010 at 9:14 PM ^
That they keep track of wins and losses for quaterbacks. It's because they are the players most in control of the game. Manning has consistently been surrounded by a great supporting cast and has consistently fallen short in the playoffs. I don't know if you're looking at quarterback rating or what, but Manning has not been a very average playoff performer. To me, playoff Manning was best exemplified in 2007-08. The Colts had the Chargers at home, without Phillip Rivers in the second half. Manning had plenty of time to lead a game-winning drive against an inferior team and failed on 3 seperate occasions. It's just who he is.
December 12th, 2010 at 9:26 PM ^
I mean, some people do keep track of a QB's W-L, but really the main sport where an individual gets credit for a team goal is the starting pitcher in baseball, and as we saw this year's AL Cy Young, we're smarter than just looking at the W-L record when making that evaluation.
December 12th, 2010 at 9:55 PM ^
is probably the stupidest stats ever because football is a team game and it takes 22 players to win or lose a game.
The only record that should count is tennis, golf or any other individual sports because that player has complete control of every aspect of the game.
December 12th, 2010 at 9:52 PM ^
PEYTON MANNING | Passer Rating | Completion % | Yds. Per Attempt | TDs | TD % | INTs | INT % | TD/INT Ratio |
Regular Season | 102.27 | 66.85 | 7.94 | 228 | 6.14 | 81 | 2.18 | 2.81/1 |
Playoffs | 93.0 | 65.3 | 7.88 | 26 | 4.79 | 16 | 2.95 | 1.62/1 |
Peyton hasn't.
edit: These stats don't include the super bowl last season... Which he lost.
December 12th, 2010 at 9:55 PM ^
The only guy close? Montana.
December 13th, 2010 at 11:28 AM ^
Could be by virtue of the stronger competition, just saying.
December 13th, 2010 at 1:01 PM ^
But Brady's and Montana's actually go UP for the playoffs...against stronger competition (the exact same competition for Brady and Manning).
December 13th, 2010 at 11:39 PM ^
truth
December 12th, 2010 at 8:03 PM ^
I think Brady's got a more impressive resume than Manning. Once you get passed the fact that Manning has 50+% more career attempts than Brady their numbers are strikingly similar. If you look at completion %, td %, int % and yards per play they're nearly identical. Once you factor in that Manning has had more weapons, plays in a dome and Brady's vastly superior playoff performance (not only 2 more Super Bowls, but 5 less flameouts in the first round) you have to go with Brady.
December 13th, 2010 at 10:14 AM ^
The dome is the most under-appreciated factor for me - changes the offense fundamentally, especially late in the season
December 12th, 2010 at 8:12 PM ^
It's amazing how close Brady got to not even having this be a debate. If the Pats had finished the perfect season there would not even be a discussion as to who the greatest quarterback ever is.
December 12th, 2010 at 9:06 PM ^
He'd be going for the one for the thumb, only one to win 5!!! Worst-professional-game-EVAR!
December 12th, 2010 at 10:13 PM ^
I have to agree 150%. I just love the fire he shows when he tries to pull the team up. I think this is one intangible that you cannot measure until the players time has passed. He oozes leadership.
December 12th, 2010 at 10:14 PM ^
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh5D_TMGwjk
I'll take Brady all day. He wins with less talent then Peyton.
December 13th, 2010 at 11:18 AM ^
I was in a hotel ballroom with 400+ Saints fans, two blocks from Bourbon St watching that game. When we got that pick we all knew who was going to win. Great moment
December 12th, 2010 at 10:42 PM ^
.......on the argument between Brady and Manning.
1. Manning does not have a rifle for an arm. He is merely average at best for arm strength, or does no one wonder why no long passes(like Brady or Brees)?
2. Brady, in a 15-20mph windy snowstorm, with snow covering the field, and gusts up to 30mph, goes 27-40 for 369 yds and 2 TDs against a decent defense. Does anyone here seriously think that Manning could have done anything even remotely similar? I didn't think so.
3. Brady has 3 rings and was respectable in his loss with 266yds, 1TD/0Int. Manning has 1 ring and his SB loss stats are 333yds, 1TD/1INT(a big int on what could have been a game-winning drive. Typical Manning).
Manning has always been regarded as a very good QB who couldn't ever win the big game until he won his first SB. Brady was always regarded as a good QB who was as clutch as they come when it came to the big games.
And, I will never, ever, root or like Manning for what his college coach did in 1997 simply because Woodson won the Heisman over Manning. Fair or not, I don't care, and that's the way it will be.
December 13th, 2010 at 12:48 AM ^
December 13th, 2010 at 2:18 AM ^
... I love Tom Brady, but you guys are being way too one sided. Now, close your eyes and imagine you grew up and went to Tennessee. Would you still look at Superbowls as the number 1 factor? No, you'd look at total output, league MVPs, etc... Point is, they are both two of the greatest in the history of the sport. There is really no way of convincingly arguing one vs. the other.
December 13th, 2010 at 3:13 AM ^
Before Brady even got to the league, the arguments were there about who was the greatest, and do you know what the overall metric used was? SuperBowl wins. Montana was considered the greatest ever at the time mainly due to his 4 SB wins. The apex acheivement in the NFL for QBs is a SB win. You don't hear anyone saying how they want to lead the league in this stat, or that stat and not caring whether they make it to the SB or not. Everyone always talks, at the beginning of the season, that they believe they have a shot at making the SB.
If that is what they, themselves measure their season by, why shouldn't we? The stats you mention are merely attempts by Manning's fans to push their favorite player into, and on top of, a discussion of who is the greatest.
Right now, Montana still leads. If Brady wins another this season, one has to believe that he would be the one on top. Manning is a very good QB who can run his offense very well, but until he proves more than once that he can win the biggest game of them all, he won't ever make my list of greatest QBs ever.
December 13th, 2010 at 11:21 AM ^
Now I know Manning does have a Super Bowl which Marino does not, but lets face it the Colts defense and running game won the playoff games and the Super Bowl. Brady is more successful than Manning without a doubt. But in general I think a person is only great when those around him are great. A great brain surgeon has to have a great staff around them, space shuttles are not made by one brilliant engineer but rather a whole group. If you want to be great and achieve great things you have to be around the best.
December 13th, 2010 at 10:47 AM ^
Tom is always On Topic. Er, isn't that "OT"? Anyway, discussion of MICHIGAN MEN even after they left UM is "not off topic" nor "not semi-off topic." To me, anyway. What do I know, I used to have 300 points and got negbanged to death once.
December 13th, 2010 at 11:13 AM ^
Is Favre on top of this page, smiling at me?
December 13th, 2010 at 11:48 AM ^
is definitely the more clutch quarterback. What's interesting to me is that Brady has had far better defenses, while Peyton has had way more high-octane weapons to work with for longer. How does one handicap for that in comparing their greatness? Also, neither has had an elite (or even better-than-mediocre) running game to rely on (except when Mike Hart is in for the Colts, of course).
They're both remarkable talents, and while Peyton will make a much more fearsome run at the record books, Brady will retire with more rings. This isn't a Bill Walton/Wilt Chamberlain debate either, as Peyton has fared quite well against Brady's Pats in head-to-head match-ups.
It's a great debate, though if I ever had my life depend on winning one football game with a team assembled of my choice, Brady would be QB-1. Still, neither is really indisputably better than the other, at least in this stage of their careers.
December 14th, 2010 at 12:02 AM ^
This isn't a Bill Walton/Wilt Chamberlain debate either, as Peyton has fared quite well against Brady's Pats in head-to-head match-ups.
Maybe in regular season play, but in playoff head-to-head games, it's what? NE 3 wins to Colts 1 win?