OT: Michigan Undergraduate quality?
So I'm scrolling down by facebook homepage as I boredly procrastinate on homework when I see one of my friends taking heat from state fans because, you know. My friend (we are both current U of M students) retorts with the whole "state is a crappy school" schpeel, when another state fan quickly swoops in and begins going off on how "only michigan's grad programs are good" and that Michigan's undergraduate program is terrible and only skates by on the rep of the graduate schools.
Now, this is clearly not true, as a glance at any undergraduate ranking would tell you, but all slander usually has a kernel of truth, or at least an origin of sorts. Where would State fans hear or be told such a thing? and is there any truth to it?
October 13th, 2010 at 3:04 PM ^
I went through UM's SOE, and truest me, three of those four semesters in the classroom are nothing similar to student teaching. State also does "pre student teaching" as we call it.
October 13th, 2010 at 5:30 PM ^
when i was in undergrad and medical school Staae friends used to brag about their teacher programs. an education undergrad at UM informed me we were ranked higher and i confirmed it. my Staae friends never bragged in front of me again.
October 12th, 2010 at 5:41 PM ^
Last time I applied for undergraduate was 2003 and I'm 100% positive Michigan is a great academic institution for undergraduates
Whoever told you that is crazy and does not know academic institutions at all
October 12th, 2010 at 5:44 PM ^
how we all seem to comment with words that are, on average, one to two syllables longer than usual when we're discussing the wild world of academia?
Not hatin'. I'm guilty of it too.
October 12th, 2010 at 5:55 PM ^
Unless you transferred or eventually join Academia, you probably can't ever compare the quality of education received at one undergraduate institution to another. There's just no real way to measure it. Even "empirical" data such as employment and grad. school entrance rates are skewed based on reputation and the quality of the student entering the undergraduate institution.
In my opinion, students that want to get the most out of their education can pretty much get a "world-class" education at any respectable school. For everyone else, what you get out of your education pretty much comes down to the quality of students you attend with, and the standards that professors/T.A. holds the students to when grading. The first factor is easy to determine, not based on U.S. News rankings, but based on the actual test score/g.p.a. data released within those rankings. The second factor is much harder to compare to other schools. Some schools, including very prestigious ones, have a reputation as being quite easy once you're in, others have a reputation for being rigorous, but it is impossible to judge if those reputations are earned without having actually gone to that school and gone to another in order to compare it.
October 12th, 2010 at 6:01 PM ^
Not only is State below UM overall, i believe generally they are the least regarded academic school in the B10 overall.
Almost all other B10 schools are their respective state's flagship univ with the attendant money and prestige, while those that are not either have niche specialties (see Purdue with engineering) or are respected private schools (Northwestern)
Rankings wise, Nebraska will check in next year below them, but that is about it.
lets face it: they are the conference's littlest brother when it comes to the school overall
October 12th, 2010 at 6:06 PM ^
Well to be fair to MSU, they have veterinary science as their niche area, but I don't think that particular college as a part of the University is big enough to put them over a Purdue.
Being ranked below Iowa and Ohio State for academics has to sort of, kind of, really blow.
October 12th, 2010 at 6:11 PM ^
Veterinary science is very niche. Engineering is one of the biggest occupations in the country. Comparing the two is silly.
October 12th, 2010 at 7:20 PM ^
Which is why I said that that particular college doesn't put them over a Purdue.
October 12th, 2010 at 6:05 PM ^
It's a good school, like any B10 university, but is not on the same level as UM. Any State fan who tells you otherwise (unless they are a teacher) is delusional and trying to convince himself/herself more than you.
October 12th, 2010 at 6:24 PM ^
states (correctly) that it's the worst school rankings wise in the B10.
October 12th, 2010 at 7:17 PM ^
See the comment which states (correctly) that it's a big 10 university and they're all solid. Graduating with a degree from MSU will definitely get you a job; we're not talking about Phoenix online or something. Just because it isn't on par with other outstanding schools does not make it a bad educational institution.
October 12th, 2010 at 6:48 PM ^
when I confronted said fan with no less than 6 different undergraduate rankings, he started going "well, but State was a better FIT for me"
whatever that means...
October 12th, 2010 at 7:31 PM ^
I thought about attending UM when I was applying for undergrad, but I decided to go east. I wanted to do biomedical engineering and UM's undergraduate BME program was pretty much in its infancy and kind of finding its way around.. though the graduate program is quite excellent.
Personally, I thought smaller class sizes was a huge plus, and if I had to do it over again, I would still make the same choice. UM undergrad is pretty massive, and I feel like I'd be lost in the shuffle had I chosen to go to UM. Bottom line, it's more about fit and the people around you, rather than an undergraduate school ranking.
That being said, going to a higher ranked undergraduate institution and doing well there can be pretty important for admission to a top-rated professional school (law, medicine). So don't discount it completely.
Here's a cool-story-bro moment: I have to admit that I was briefly considering going to MSU over UM, only because I got a full ride at MSU versus the usual Regents' at UM. But I decided to eschew both to spend even more money to go out east.. /coolstorybro
October 12th, 2010 at 8:08 PM ^
No doubt that MSU is at the bottom of a pretty elite group of universities.In terms of top to bottom, i would argue only the Ivies are better. They are ahead of most of the SEC and big 12 schools. no shame in that i suppose.
OSU and PSU have both come on in recent years in terms of overall quality and MSU is definitely a better school than they were 15 or 20 years ago, but it has not been enough to pass anyone in the B10
Sparty fans always point out (rightfully) that they making strides as a better overall school, but when every other B10 school starts off higher and does not lose ground, they cannot really gain ground
October 12th, 2010 at 8:32 PM ^
Perhaps surprisingly, the ACC is even with or better than the Big Ten. Their top-tier schools (Duke, UVa, UNC) compare pretty well with ours, and there aren't many embarrassing ones in the remainder of the list.
October 12th, 2010 at 8:37 PM ^
I'll start off by saying I graduated from MSU. And no, I've never burned a couch :(
Here's my long rant about this:
By the way, I did get into Michigan. Yes, I know you hear that from everyone who ever went to State, but unlike most, I actually have the SAT scores to prove it (screenshot, maybe?) in case you don't believe that anyone who ever went to MSU got into Michigan. I was an international student, however, and was never taught to hate either school when I was growing up. I ended up going to MSU over Michigan and several other schools because MSU offered me a great scholarship and an invitation to their Honors College. I also liked their campus when I visited. Only one other school offered me a better scholarship than MSU, but upon further research I found it to be undesirable. Michigan offered me very little financial assistance, so that's that.
My honest opinion is that undergraduate education really doesn't vary that much from college to college. I sat through several lectures with my brother at Northwestern (ranked highest in the Big Ten) and was never blown away. I've also heard many criticisms against Harvard for the high percentage of undergrad courses taught by TAs... so to say that one school's undergraduate level of education is head-and-shoulders above another is ignorant at best, but arrogant at worst... especially when you're talking about two top 5% colleges (there are over 3,500 colleges in the United States). You guys have the amazing ability to make any public school not named "University of Michigan" sound like East-Western Coastal Wyoming School for the Blind... fact is, every Big Ten school is pretty damn good for national and worldwide standards. There's a reason MSU has produced more Rhodes Scholars than any other Big Ten University, and it's not our agriculture program or our ski-mask wearing skills.
I will concede one point that has been made here... the percentage of smart kids at Michigan is probably higher than the percentage of smart kids at MSU... just like the percentage is probably higher at Northwestern than at UM, and higher at Harvard than at Northwestern. As I said, I was in the Honors College at MSU and took some classes with some brilliant people (you need a minimum 30 ACT or 1360 Math+Reading SAT to get in), most of whom did get into or could've gotten into Michigan. I also took classes with many idiots. The percentage of idiots would've probably been lower had I gone to Michigan, but I don't know that the level of instruction really would've been all that different. It's also likely that I would've pushed myself harder in some classes had all of my peers been closer to my level... but none of these things mean that my education was poor. I honestly don't envy anyone with a different ("better") undergrad degree--the real bucks are made in grad school these days.
I'm happily employed (in Michigan!) and scoring in the 700's on my practice GMATs (wish me luck on Thursday!), so I guess some of us "can read" and "can write."
October 12th, 2010 at 8:59 PM ^
Good for you bro.
October 12th, 2010 at 9:30 PM ^
I fully expected that response. You should've used a funny image though.
October 13th, 2010 at 3:42 PM ^
A lot of academic "rankings" don't really mean anything other than general groupings (top tier, second tier, etc.). Any school within the same 10 or 15 schools in the rankings is about the same or at least comparable. For the people that went to Michigan, a lot of the criteria that are viewed as negatives in these rankings aren't really negatives at all (e.g., total size of undergraduate class). After I graduated from Michigan, I realized what a massive and amazing alumni network we have. That alumni network would be smaller if Michigan's class size were smaller and selectivity were higher. People from extremely selective small schools generally do not get the benefit of a large alumni network. So school rankings are inherently flawed in my view.
Also. the major reason I went to Michigan instead of Northwestern (the two schools I was deciding between) was that Michigan was more affordable when I got my projected financial aid packages from both schools. If Northwestern had been cheaper, I probably would have gone there (blasphemy!). If I had not been accepted at either Michigan or Northwestern, then I probably would have gone to MSU by default. Is MSU bad? Not at all. I'm sure I would have liked it just fine, but it certainly was not my top choice or even in my top tier of schools. To its credit, however, it was more affordable than both Michigan and Northwestern, and I do know countless people that loved their time there.
As far as comparing the two, it's tough. Michigan is definitely more selective and more respected on a national level. Michigan State is more affordable, or at least it was when I was in high school. They both have large class sizes. They have a different feel to them culturally and on campus. The books you use in class are probably the same, or essentially the same, at both schools and probably throughout the U.S. The curricula at the undergrad level is probably more similar than different. If you know you are going to medical or law school afterwards, where you go to undergrad and what you major in is probably not as important as people make it out to be, provided you get good grades and test scores.
I think what is often lost in the shuffle with all these rankings is how much the school will expand your horizons and challenge you to be a better person. I think Michigan pushed me harder and made me a better person than MSU would have, but I cannot say for sure because I didn't attend MSU. I do have two friends that got into both schools and chose MSU (in both cases because they wanted to do education), but everybody has to do what's right for them. I don't hold it against anyone because they went to MSU any more than I would hope people would hold it against me if I went to Northwestern instead of Michigan. The reason people pick one school over another might be due to cost, or a specific major, or even proximity to family, all of which seem valid to me.
October 12th, 2010 at 9:09 PM ^
The argument that UM Undergrad is bad and Grad schools are great doesn't really make much sense in reality - not just because independent of the grad schools, UM undergrad has amazing students and is a high quality institution. You can't treat graduate and undergrad programs as entirely independent because they are not. I studied Political Science at Michigan. In my field, the grad school is ranked #1 in the country. I got to take classes with the same professors the grad students did and because they were there, I was able to seek out really interesting independent study and research opportunities. Michigan grad programs have a much stronger reputations than the undergrad program, but that does not say anything bad about the undergrad program there. Ceteris paribus, if you are trying to determine which of two universities is better, the one with stronger grad programs will be stronger across the board. Sorry, Little Brother, enjoy STAEE.
October 12th, 2010 at 9:22 PM ^
October 12th, 2010 at 9:33 PM ^
Michigan's med school is ranked 6th in the country and known as being among the elite. At least according to one respectable opinion I know, MSU's med school actually manages to be mediocre compared to most others in the country, though this is possibly largely due to MI putting more into building UM as the state's premiere medical school. MSU does have one of the best D.O. programs in the country, however.
October 13th, 2010 at 5:55 PM ^
Michigan's medical school has always been ranked in or at the top 10. MSU's Osteopathic school consistantly outranks their med school. BUT, I was accepted at UM,MSU Osteopathic,Wisconsin,Case Western,Creighton,Indiana,and WSU but denied even an interview at Stanford and MSU.The only conclusion I can draw is MSU medical school is as good as Stanford's.
October 12th, 2010 at 9:36 PM ^
Not really...
For "Research," USNWR ranks Michigan 6th (tied with 3 other schools) while MSU is ranked 85th.
For "Primary Care," MSU's DO school is ranked 7th, Michigan is ranked 14th, and MSU's MD school is ranked 23rd.
For obvious reasons, research tends to be more highly-regarded in academia.
October 14th, 2010 at 12:08 AM ^
This is a joke right? There is a /s hidden in this i'm assuming....
October 12th, 2010 at 9:56 PM ^
There's a lot of talk about TA's and larger class sizes here so I will weigh in from own experience.
1) Michigan was one of my 3 or 4 schools I applied to (others were Penn St :(, VT, MD). I focused more on the last 3 and less on Michigan. I don't remember how my application went but I do seem to vaguely remember something unique about that application at the time which was not used in the other 3. Can't remember.
2) I have taken both huge classes at one college and small classes at a community college, and I can see why people like the smaller classes better. However, the "rap" on larger classes is unfair, as they mostly shrink down as you go further into college. I was in a chemistry lecture with about 100, 200+ other students freshman year, I didn't really have a problem with it, you can always approach the teacher after class, during office hours. Plus, as I said, the classes get smaller in junior and senior year.
3) At VT, TA's taught classes but so did professors. So the professors taught well, as well as the TA's, and students were great people overall. I didn't really have a problem with any of them.
October 12th, 2010 at 10:42 PM ^
Yeah, Michigan Rocks
October 13th, 2010 at 9:47 PM ^
This is the resume thread where we post our ACT, SAT, GPA, schools we got acceptance letters from, and overall geniusness right?
October 14th, 2010 at 1:32 AM ^
