Michigan is Good, But Not Elite, and Won't be Elite Without Different (Worse) Institutional Standards

Submitted by jcorqian on November 26th, 2018 at 4:11 PM

Summary Points

  • We have severely overreacted as a fanbase after OSU instead of just admitting the truth
  • The truth is that we are likely a good, consistent 10-win team under Harbaugh which would be mostly in-line with history; we are not elite and we have never been elite in the modern era
  • To be elite would mean winning 85%+ of games like Meyer, Saban, and Swinney – my view is that the distinction between elite and non-elite programs is not scheme or player development but rather player talent being recruited
  • Michigan – as a university – has structural factors (not paying players, adhering to academic standards, caring about integrity, etc.) that prevent us from recruiting elite talent as consistently as Alabama, Clemson, and OSU
  • We as a university / fanbase would have to sacrifice some of those structural factors to truly be an elite team – the open question to ourselves is whether that’s worth it or not…  if it’s not worth it, we should be content with 10-win seasons and rarely beating OSU instead of constantly being in BPONE
    • I am not making a value judgment on this, as I’m not sure where I stand on this myself – I guess I personally lean towards being ok with just being good but not elite at football and having Michigan be a place of integrity

I. Our Overreactions

The short-term thinking and overreactions on this board and the broader fanbase consistently leaves me shaking my head.  Perhaps it should be unsurprising given that I work as an equity investor and so see short-termism and overreactions in the market constantly, but I guess the effect is even more dramatic in college sports.  

Before the season started, everyone had fairly reasonable takes as summed up by LSAClassof2000's diary post here.  The average prediction on this board was for 9.6 wins, and we achieved 10 wins which was right in line.  But man did we ride an absolute roller coaster of hot takes and overreactions along the way. 

After Notre Dame - a game that we lost by one touchdown against a veteran team on the road at night after several game-defining plays bizarrely went ND's way - the board was ready to throw in the towel.  We were severely drenched in BPONE and this includes Brian et. al., UMBig11, and even reasonable coach types I really respect like Magnus.  There were only a few dissenting opinions that the season wasn't lost and that we - in fact - were actually pretty good.  This was my thought as well, and I told several co-workers that I was actually fairly encouraged by our performance against a very good team for a first road start breaking in that offensive line.  Of course, today Notre Dame is a lock to be in the playoff.  You can argue that their schedule was really easy, but when they made that schedule they had no idea all the teams they would play this year would suck.  I would argue the same thing about our schedule - many of the teams we played and beat turned out to be not as good as advertised (e.g., Michigan State, Penn State, and especially Wisconsin which started the season #4).

Then came our string of 10 straight wins.  We paved weaker teams into the dust and rode an incredible wave of optimism through the Penn State game.  The Revenge Tour was in full swing, with merely one last foe to defeat.  Don't get me wrong, I wasn't immune to the optimism in any way and I really enjoyed that feeling.  It was strong enough that many ignored some cracks along the way.  Never mind that it became fairly obvious that many of these teams that we beat simply weren't as good as they were supposed to be.  Never mind the fact that we were somewhat exposed by Indiana, which ran a similar offense to OSU but with athletes only 90% as good (and that last 10% makes all the difference - imagine a 10% difference in the 40-yard dash, for example).  We here on the board were already going through every possible CFP scenario to see how Michigan would get in, who we'd play, etc.  That little obstacle in the way which was OSU was almost a foregone victory - after all, they got blown out by Purdue right?  They only narrowly beat teams that we pounded into the pavement right?  Michigan is going to be elite again and the conversation was already "bring on Alabama."

Then the OSU game happened.  Yes, it was a debacle, and yes we are probably better than 62 - 39.  The game proved that we are - in fact - not elite and not ready to compete with a truly elite team.  By this, I mean if the game were played 100 times, that we would win at least 40 of those times.  I don't think that's been the case for Harbaugh other than 2016, during which perhaps it was 60 / 100 towards us.  We just aren't at that level.  But our fanbase simply couldn't take this realization.  The asinine calls of fire Harbaugh, fire Pep (never mind that literally no one here knows how much of the offense is Pep vs. Harbaugh), fire Don Brown (never mind that we've fielded the #1 defense 3 years in a row), fire everybody are simply maddening and illogical.  Who does this element of the fanbase think we could get that's better?  It makes no sense.  What was really dumb to me were all the posters who turned on the players and on the Revenge Tour.  "Wow the Revenge Tour is the most juvenile thing ever, it's stupid, other teams don't need that motivation, let your actions do the talking, etc."  These were very likely the exact same people who were fully on board with it earlier and ready to buy Revenge Tour gear.  If we had beat OSU, how many posts on the Revenge Tour being stupid would there be?  I bet it would be literally zero.  This is ridiculous - either the Revenge Tour is awesome or it's juvenile and stupid.  The concept itself should not be affected by the outcome of the game.  Yet here we are.

II. Who We Are - Good, But Not Elite

Ultimately the point of this diary is to address our latest overreaction to the OSU game.  For my job, I attempt to recognize when human sentiment swings too far from the fundamentals in either direction and simply analyze what the data says.  What the data says is that we had a pretty good team that had a pretty good season, just not elite.  In fact, the data says that we have - at least in modern history - never been consistently an elite team (the definition here being one that is truly capable of winning a national championship). 

This seems to be the disconnect with the wild overreaction to the OSU game - a significant portion of our fanbase already thought of ourselves as elite.  This is simply not true and really has never been true in the modern era.  The takeaway for me is to simply reset my expectations - the playoff simply shouldn't be the expectation here at Michigan unless we change some long-term philosophical approaches as a university that are ultimately structural deficiencies (more on this later).

I was going to gather the data to prove this myself, but thankfully jmblue has beaten me to the punch and has done an excellent job of both providing the data and his own very well-reasoned conclusions.  I link to his diary post here.

The only things I would add to jmblue's work is to highlight a couple points.  From 1979 to 2007 (29 years pre-RR), we averaged 9.1 wins.  So Bo, Gary, and Lloyd together during this time averaged only 9.1 wins, and 1997 was a complete outlier.  9-3 and 9-4 seasons consistently results in a <75% win rate, obviously.  Harbaugh is actually averaging more in his four seasons.  Yes an extra game was added at some point compared to earlier eras, but it was also easier to win in the earlier years due to a bigger talent disparity (scholarships).  And again, as jmblue points out, we won many of those earlier Big Ten championships simply because you could tie - if that same methodology were used today, we would tie with OSU for Big Ten champions this year.

III. What Does Elite Actually Look Like?

So we've hopefully established that we are a pretty good team over the years - even great at times - but not really consistently elite.  So what does consistently elite look like?  Phrased another way, what would the team have to achieve to live up to the "fire Harbaugh" reactionary crowd's expectations?

Meyer is 81 - 9 (90%) at OSU in 7 seasons.  That is elite.  Saban is 144 - 20 (88%) at Alabama in 12 seasons, and 137 - 14 (91%) excluding his first 7 - 6 season.  That is elite.  Dabo Swinney is 113 - 30 (79%) at Clemson in 11 seasons, but 15 of those losses came during his first 3 seasons as he was building the program.  Excluding those, he is 94 - 15 (86%).  That is elite.

Since the college football playoff started, here are the teams and winners from every championship year (e.g., 2015 for the 2014 - 2015 season):

2015: Oregon, Florida State, Alabama, Ohio State | Winner: Ohio State over Oregon

2016: Clemson, Oklahoma, Alabama, Michigan State (LOL) | Winner: Alabama over Clemson

2017: Clemson, Ohio State, Alabama, Washington | Winner: Clemson over Alabama

2018: Georgia, Oklahoma, Alabama, Clemson | Winner: Alabama over Georgia

2019 projected: Alabama, Clemson, Notre Dame, Oklahoma

There's a few conclusions that I draw from this:

+ Teams that make the CFP – and especially those that win – generally have the best players.  In my view there are two ways to win in football – have better schemes or have better players.  At the elite level, however, I think everyone has great coaches that run great schemes.  I don’t think we will ever have a massive schematic advantage over Alabama, Clemson, Georgia, Oklahoma, or OSU – they care about football and can pay good coaches just as much as us (in fact, below I argue we have a schematic deficit as we refuse to embrace the spread).  Case in point – OSU already had counters to adjustments that Michigan made to its defense, as Space Coyote pointed out.  It’s not as if we would have magically won the game if we just played zone defense the whole time – OSU has the coaching and the athletes to run zone beaters, and Brandon Watson is still going to be slower than OSU’s 3rd, 4th, and 5th wide receivers (I hate writing that as Watson has stuck around to be a very good player – unfortunately he is simply athletically limited).  I don’t think anyone would dispute that OSU has better talent top to bottom than Michigan does and that it matters.  We need better players to compete at this level on a consistent basis.  Obviously player development matters a lot too, but it’s not like those elite teams don’t develop their players.

+ Teams that make the CFP typically run a spread offense.  I believe that the only team above that doesn’t run a spread basically at all is MSU (LOL).  Alabama used to be more pro-style (but incorporated spread elements) but has transitioned with the times to a spread.  Admittedly, I haven’t followed Georgia much to know whether they are clearly spread or pro-style under Kirby Smart.  Ultimately, however, the data would suggest fairly convincingly that at the college level at least the spread offense is simply better and harder to defend.

+ It’s much easier to for certain teams to make it to the CFP than others.  But just because you make the CFP doesn’t mean you are an elite top four team.  MSU (LOL), Washington, and even Oregon and Oklahoma are examples of this.  This is because college football is split into divisions, and some divisions are inherently easier than others.  The Pac12 and Big12 are simply weaker than the Big10 and SEC in this current era, meaning that the top-end teams in the Pac12 and Big12 are likely worse than the Big10 and SECs’ top-end teams.  Yet, the best teams from these weaker conferences can often sneak in over the 2nd or 3rd best team from the Big10 or SEC.  Oregon / Washington doesn’t have to go through Alabama or OSU to get in, nor does Oklahoma.  However, Michigan has to go through OSU and Georgia has to go through Alabama.  Not that this matters all that much in the end because of the point below.

+ Teams that don't belong in the playoffs are quickly exposed.  If you aren't actually a Top 4 team in the country but you make the playoffs anyway, you get pounded pretty hard.  MSU (LOL), Washington, and even Oregon are examples of this.  They each got destroyed by an actual elite team.  Had Michigan made it to the CFP to play Alabama or Clemson, I think we would have been absolutely wrecked.  I think Notre Dame – which is a pretty damn good team this year – is going to get wrecked by either of those teams.

IV. How Do We Become Elite?

If you made it this far, I appreciate it and I do finally get to the punchline.  I’m not just pointing out problems without offering potential solutions – unfortunately these solutions may not be well received by us as Michigan alumni and fans.  After all, Michigan is an institution that stands for integrity and we all need to make our own choices on what football means to us within that broader context.

Easy fixes – schematically.  As the data above would suggest, we should be running a spread offense.  We should force defenses to play 11v11 (on every play), use misdirection, and get the ball to our playmakers 1v1 in space.  We have the athletes now to do so but we still do not do this.  Instead, we line up in a mashing formation to run and then run obvious play actions on 3rd and 7 that fool no one (I don’t think we’ve really ever actually run on this down and distance, so why even fake it?).  We run to open up the pass when we could and likely should pass to open up the run.  Get the ball to DPJ and Chris Evans and let them beat guys 1v1, just like Indiana and OSU did to us.  Get the ball to playmakers as they are running in stride so they can pickup YAC instead of having players have to constantly look back, adjust, and then get tackled for YAC.  Let playmakers make plays with as few execution constraints as possible (e.g., everyone else needs to hit their blocks).  It’s always going to be harder to tackle someone running full speed when they get the ball. 

I don’t think these are novel concepts but for some reason seem to choose a more complicated scheme on purpose – Harbaugh has been fairly stubborn in this regard despite showing a history of tinkering and philosophy adjustments elsewhere.  Our offense does well against inferior defenses, but against OSU which has superior talent and just as importantly superior depth we have obviously not fared well.  The OSU game was really disappointing because it appeared we were on the path to incorporating all the above elements into our game – however, we seemed to prefer to play completely straight up and absolutely regressed.

On defense, I think changes to scheme are less necessary.  We simply didn’t have the athletes to matchup.  OSU’s top four receivers are all 4.4 speed players and excellent at getting open and they have literally the best throwing quarterback in the history of the Big 10 (by statistics at least).  Our defensive line simply was not good enough either – those that thought Michigan has the best defensive line in the country simply have not spent enough time watching other teams out there.  I don’t believe the outcome of the OSU game would have been any different had we altered our scheme, ran zone completely, etc.  We were simply out-talented more so than we were outcoached.

I think a better scheme will close the gap between us and OSU, and would have made this last game closer for us.  It wouldn't have won the game for us though.  We needed players as well.

Hard fixes – recruit better players.  Michigan pulls in a Rashan Gary, Jabrill Peppers, Daxton Hill, and hopefully Zach Harrison every once in a while, but it really isn’t to the consistency of Alabama, Clemson, and especially Ohio State.  Clemson (and I know it wasn’t always the case before) today starts four world-beaters at defensive line.  I think highly of Rashan as a player, teammate, and person but think that any of Clemson’s four is likely as good if not better at the college level than Rashan has been… and there are four of them.  Again, I don’t think this is going out on a limb here but we simply don’t have the athletes to consistently beat OSU.  And yes, I know that Purdue blew them out and Maryland almost beat them but they were just lucky rolls of the dice.  Do you really believe that Purdue / Maryland beats this year’s OSU team consistently, e.g., >60 games out of 100?

In my mind, there are several reasons why Michigan does not recruit at the level of Alabama, Clemson, and Ohio State:

+ We do not cheat and pay players.  We all know that the entire SEC, from Saban on down, pay players to go to their school.  Our own players have implied as much during their recruitments – Denard, Rashan with Clemson, etc.  Look at Laquon Treadwell and Isaiah Wilson to Ole Miss and Georgia respectively.  We know beyond a doubt this is happening.  There are supremely talented players that would never consider us because we won’t buy their mother a new house or car or slip them a few thousand dollars.

+ We care about academics.  When you come to Michigan, it’s expected that you go to class and graduate with a Michigan degree.  It’s expected that you better yourself and expand your horizons – that’s why we have the overseas trips to Paris, Rome, etc.  There are talented players that do not care about academics or bettering themselves.  They won’t consider us because the just want to play football, party, and fuck girls without having to deal with homework.

+ We care about character.  We all know Urban Meyer is a piece of shit who played Aaron Hernandez and who protected a coach who beat his wife (and truthfully, I freely admit I don’t really care about Courtney Smith – I was only interested because it was OSU; otherwise, she is a completely random person to me and I don’t have any vested interest in her any more than I would have towards any other victim I don’t know – obviously domestic violence is horrible in general).  We know Urban doesn’t care about anything other than winning, and his own players have implied that it’s an all business, cutthroat environment as opposed to a closer, family environment at Michigan.  It just recently came out that Reuben Foster had a domestic violence incident (yes I realize that he isn’t on Saban’s current team).  We all know that other teams have played players who have done probably pretty bad things.  Yet our standard is higher.  There are talented players out there who won’t consider us because they want to get away with doing bad things.

+ These matter to a lesser extent, but geography works against us.  Michigan is not filled with recruiting talent unlike Ohio, California, Texas, and the South.  Furthermore, though I don’t believe Michigan is really colder than anywhere else of similar latitude (I’m from Iowa and used to live in NYC), the perception that Michigan winters are horrendous probably prevents some talented players from considering us.

So what do we do to counter these issues?  Well, the first question in my mind is should we even want to change these things? 

There is a clear trade-off between the quality of player and Michigan’s standards (when it comes to recruiting as a whole – obviously we have one-off case in Rashan and Jabrill etc.) – lower the standards and bring in higher quality players.  Hypothetically, if Michigan were to pay players I think our recruiting disadvantage goes away.  We have more resources than basically any other football school out there.  $50k for a top-20 recruit consistently is nothing.  I myself don’t even know where I sit on this issue – I’m not sure it’s a good thing to prioritize football over the integrity of Michigan.  But that’s essentially what we would have to do to be an elite program.  It’s up to each of us to determine how much that means individually.

Overall conclusion: Michigan is not on a level playing field with Alabama, Clemson, OSU, etc.  We could make it a level playing field if we 1) paid players, 2) lowered academic standards, and 3) lowered character standards.  If we as an institution are willing to make that tradeoff, then we can be an elite program.  If we are not willing to do so, then we should be content with 10-win seasons and rare victories vs. OSU and rare appearances in the CFP in which we are beaten by teams with superior talent.  We simply cannot have both high institutional standards as a program AND expect to consistently beat OSU and compete for championships.

Side note: I tried to think through hypothetically what would happen if Michigan successfully lobbied (together with other schools) for paying the players.  I don’t think that would work either because 1) not all the schools have enough money to pay players beyond scholarships (at least I don’t believe so since most athletic departments are loss-making), and 2) there is nothing to prevent Alabama from further paying the #1 recruit in the nation on top of what they are getting paid just to play in college.  We would just be back to where we are today.  The counter to that is that after a certain level of payment, money would matter less to players and so they might start valuing other things that other programs have to offer.  However, these are 17-year old kids often from less than fortunate backgrounds so I still imagine that – on the whole – more money is hard to turn down.

Comments

KernTatum68

November 27th, 2018 at 1:23 AM ^

Bingo. If you lose a recruit all of a sudden they are bad? Or there was some underlying scheme? Then go after 3 and 4 stars and coach them up. How many times has Michigan gone toe to toe with the supposed cheaters and said, “if you are considering going to school that lies and cheats, we are done. We want integrity. “

jbohl

November 26th, 2018 at 8:11 PM ^

demographics, geography, institutional standards.  you said it all.  as i've said to many NC or bust excellence demanders .  Michigan hasn't been elite since the late 40's.  Very good ? sure.  Elite?  no.   Bo wasn't BO except in maize & blue mythology.  3 ten win seasons in 4  is a good start.  

Ramblin

November 26th, 2018 at 8:46 PM ^

I tend to agree on most points.  As for recruiting, here is the biggest hurdle in my mind.  I don't think it is us not paying players, or our refusal to recruit questionable character, although I think that has something to do with it.

If I'm a 5 star recruit with my eyes on the NFL, why in god's name would I want to go to a school and compete with elite scholars in class every day?  Even if I was an elite scholar myself, what is the point really?  Now a few special kids might care...  However, if I'm honest with myself, I wouldn't bother.  I'd go to a gladiator academy with VERY lax academic standards, loose women, and a penchant for putting players into the NFL early and often.  

In fact, I don't think I would tell my son to put himself through any type of academic rigor if I truly thought he had a shot at the NFL.  Concentrate on football as exclusively as possible.  Go where that is easiest to do.  If you don't make it to the NFL, then concentrate on school. 

I think this all gets down to a really fundamental thing we all tend to ignore.  This is minor league football at this point.  We try to pretend it's something else still.  Now, I'm assuming we pull some strings for our players to make it easier, and Michigan isn't MIT, but if football was my meal ticket and true passion, I wouldn't bother attending a school that even pretended to care about academics.

    

GeorgetownTom

November 26th, 2018 at 8:53 PM ^

The academic angle is overblown. Michigan does not have the same academic standards when it comes to football that Stanford has. They are recruiting the same guys who Alabama, OSU and Clemson are recruiting. If you are a 5 star recruit and are interested in Michigan, as long as you meet the NCAA's minimum standards, have no criminal history, you're getting into Michigan if that's where you want to play football.

However, Michigan does have a geographic disadvantage that will keep them from elite recruiting territory. To compensate for the lack of high level talent in Michigan and the Midwest in general, you are generally trying to get recruits from California, Texas, Florida, Georgia, to turn down local options. All things equal, recruits generally pick the local school. Michigan will lose most of these battles and never quite break into elite recruiting territory.

Which brings me to the next point. Does it make sense continuing to run Harbaugh's traditional offense that requires you to have better players at each position on the field when you know you will never have a more talented roster than OSU? Yes, Harbaugh's Michigan has come close to beating Meyer's OSU teams, but they've also gotten blown out twice. If/when Michigan does get by OSU, awaiting them in the playoff will be more OSU type programs.

So, what does Michigan do? 

Ramblin

November 26th, 2018 at 9:08 PM ^

See above.  I agree with the admissions standards thing.  However, you still have to compete with a higher caliber of student once you get in.  I'm sure there are a lot of 5 star athletes that could care less about academics - and I don't blame them for that.  My goal is the NFL and millions of dollars.  Econ 101 is not...  So why put yourself into a situation where skating by is more difficult because of the people you are in class with?  I for one wouldn't do that.  Give me a southern school with an average incoming GPA of 2.0...  I'm willing to bet we have missed out on our fair share of 5 stars based on that logic.

footballguy

November 26th, 2018 at 9:21 PM ^

These kids get so much help it's unreal. And you only need a 1.8 for your first year to be eligible for your second, a 1.9 to be eligible for your third, and a 2.0 to be elligible for your fourth/fifth. That is not hard to achieve in a general studies path with tons of tutors at your disposal. Even at Michigan.

People always forget that northern states have shit weather, and all of the good recruits are in the south or warm states. I mean USC is an fine academic institution yet they have great recruiting classes. You know why? LA is fucking incredible. 

Out of all the things listed as complaints about recruits, I think academics should be near the bottom, or not even listed at all.

GeorgetownTom

November 26th, 2018 at 10:47 PM ^

I agree. If I'm a football recruit, there are 3 things that I'm looking for in a college:

1) I want to win a lot games/championships

2) I want to get to the NFL

3) Campus life since I have to spend the next 3-4 years here. This ranges from school and social life to the gameday experience.

But, I think all 3 points can be overcome by a school if they are located in a talent rich area. Imagine if the state of Michigan consistently produced around 40 4 and 5 star recruits every year. (For reference, there are 39 4 and 5 star recruits in the class of 2019 from Georgia). Now, the state of Michigan would be more heavily recruited but given Michigan's history and flagship status, they would probably be guaranteed to sign at least 10 of these guys each year.  Couple that with the 10 4 and 5 stars that Michigan has committed now from out of state, finish it off with 5 3 stars and you've probably got a top 3 class in the country.

 

Search4Meaning

December 31st, 2018 at 3:29 PM ^

The academic angle is overblown. - Perhaps, but it does exist.

Michigan does not have the same academic standards when it comes to football that Stanford has. - correct, but not too far behind.

If you are a 5 star recruit and are interested in Michigan, as long as you meet the NCAA's minimum standards, have no criminal history, you're getting into Michigan  - not true at all.  Sorry.  I know for a fact that this is not true.

Michigan does have a geographic disadvantage that will keep them from elite recruiting territory. - true.

All things equal, recruits generally pick the local school. Michigan will lose most of these battles and never quite break into elite recruiting territory. - Correct.

Does it make sense continuing to run Harbaugh's traditional offense... - not to me.

ConfessedBuckeye

November 26th, 2018 at 8:58 PM ^

This is moronic. 

The saddest, tiredest poop wad to hurl in the OSU-Michigan debate is the holier-than-thou “we have academic standards” BS.

More importantly, it’s not even an accurate argument anymore. Ohio State is a completely different place than it was 30 years ago when this narrative was born.

Two years ago the average ACT score of Michigan’s freshman class was a 28. Ohio State’s was a 27. 

You’re a Midwest state school.

You’re not Harvard. You’re not even Stanford or Notre Dame. 

Find another excuse for sucking. 

 

 

Rose Bowl

November 26th, 2018 at 9:21 PM ^

Hit a soft spot?  Dang you’re sensitive. 

OSU has:

  • Supported a head coach that harbored a woman beater. 
  • Hired a head coach that was sleeping with a Florida co-ed. 
  • Hired a head coach that mentored Aaron Hernandez.
  • Hired two coaches involved in the Sandusky child sex abuse scandal - Schiano / Johnson 
  • Hired a coach that paid recruits in cash, cars and tattoos. 
  • Hired a coach that got fired for abusing players at Indiana. 
  • OSU doesn't pretend to have good academics. Their players take easy classes and don't pretend to attend an elite academic institution.

It's a sad day in college football when these behaviors are rewarded, but it's put OSU on top of the Big Ten. Until Michigan put winning above all these transgressions like OSU we will not beat them. I was hoping we could do it the right way but it won't happen.

ConfessedBuckeye

November 26th, 2018 at 9:39 PM ^

Ha yes. One thing you said there is true.

Ohio State players don’t pretend to attend an elite academic institution.

Michigan players do pretend to attend an elite academic institution.

Your many comrades here are spot-on. There’s never been a 5* recruit dying to go to Michigan that’s been turned away because they couldn’t qualify. Michigan is recruiting at the same academic standard as Alabama and Clemson and everyone else. 

 

 

 

Ramblin

November 26th, 2018 at 9:22 PM ^

You guys kick our ass in football.  You do not kick our ass academically.  Sorry man, that is as much a fact as Michigan being inferior to OSU in football is a fact.  That said, I was thinking more along the lines of SEC football academies vs northern schools with higher academic standards.  This hurts Stanford, ND, UM, and OSU if you guys have now joined the public ivy.  I guess I didn't get the academic powerhouse memo.   

Search4Meaning

December 31st, 2018 at 3:52 PM ^

Q:  Do you know what the similarity is between a Michigan student and an Ohio State student?

 

A:  They could both get into Ohio State.

We're not a Harvard or Stanford or Notre Dame.  We were aware of that.  We're okay with that.

OSU has made big steps in their academic standings.  Congrats.  But, they really had nowhere else to go but up.

OSU has clearly excelled in football and have dominated the series over the last 25 years.  You're elite in that way.  Congrats. 

But in very few ways is OSU an equal school to Michigan academically.  Read any US New & World Report on colleges, any Times Higher Education, any QS Top Universities, any Forbes, etc.

Let's look at the QS Top Universities:  Michigan #20 - OSU #89.

So... Congrats on your 27 ACT score.  If in your mind, this trumps the fact that no unbiased organization agrees with you that OSU is an academic equal to Michigan, you are a Buckeye.

Go Blue!

 

footballguy

November 26th, 2018 at 9:05 PM ^

I'm sorry, but I have never bought into the academic argument. Most of these kids are taking classes that, with the help of tutors, could easily give them the 1.8/1.9/2.0 necessary to be eligible, even at a school like Michigan. Most of these kids, or at least the ones starting with hopes of the NFL, are not taking a difficult course load. 

Now the arguments about paying players, turning an eye to behavioral issues, etc - sure, I will agree about that to an extent. But academics? No. If the number 1 recruit that has a 2.3 high school GPA decommits from Bama and wants to go to Michigan, he will be accepted with open arms here.

The fact of the matter is that Michigan sucks. Not the school - the state. I love it to death, and it is gorgeous, but holy hell it is miserable here for most of the time the kids would even be playing football. The south has warmer weather, and honestly better looking girls. I love it here in A2, but an 18 year old top recruit from the south? I'll probably stay somewhere warmer.

footballguy

November 26th, 2018 at 9:14 PM ^

Main point is that I fully disagree about academics, and partially agree about players being paid. I can't fully agree with players not being paid, because with how these kids are treated like celebrities in A2 and just how much money a lot of Michigan alums have, I could easily see some rogue people breaking some NCAA rules or giving them gifts. I mean it happened with the basketball team. It's just so hard to track so I can't say that it 100% isn't happening. 

DSimpson

November 26th, 2018 at 9:15 PM ^

Oh BS.

We are SO dignified. We’re such martyrs. We could win - honest we could - if we would just lower ourselves to everyone else’s level.

You want to tell me the Fab Five weren’t paid? What were their SAT scores? I forget, did they ace molecular genetics? 

Good thing U-M doesn’t stand for nonsense from players! Like when Brandon Gibbons was raping girls and Taylor Lewan got kicked off the team for threatening the girl to keep her from reporting. Or, wait, did they play out their careers at Michigan?

If only the Michigan football team could challenge the rest of the league to an honesty-and-poetry-reciting contest.  Because, you know, Michigan would never offer a scholarship to a 5-star player unless he could recite Yeats as well.

Give it a rest.  Sometimes you’re just not as good. Don’t cry that the rules are all against you and you’re the only one honest enough to follow them.

Search4Meaning

December 31st, 2018 at 4:22 PM ^

We could win - honest we could - if we would just lower ourselves to everyone else’s level. - I don't think that this is the sole determinant of Michigan's ability to win.  But it is a hindrance.

You want to tell me the Fab Five weren’t paid? - well, two were.  But if you had taken the time to actually research it at all, you would see that the payments occurred before they came to Michigan from a guy who was at that time was not a Michigan booster.  But you obviously don't care about facts.  Never let the facts get in the way of a biased accusation - right?

I forget, did they ace molecular genetics? - you didn't forget.  It is not a class at any school.  Anywhere.  But your point is that they didn't take tough classes, which is fair.

Brandon Gibbons was raping girls and Taylor Lewan got kicked off the team for threatening the girl to keep her from reporting. Or, wait, did they play out their careers at Michigan? - There was one girl.  Gibbons was expelled from the University.  Not our finest moment to be sure.  Lewan's accuser could not prove that he threatened her and later retracted her statement.

We aren't as good and we're speculating as to why.  There are many many reasons.

 

dotslashderek

November 26th, 2018 at 9:17 PM ^

Dude, this is a lot of work which is respectable but your own math works against you and then you have to do all kinds of hacking to try and make it work.

An analysis that basically begins and ends with win % is laughable because saban (for instance) has faced significantly tougher in-conference competition in the sec versus what meyer has faced in the big ten.  This shows up when both osu and msu are blown out and blanked on offense in their most recent visits to the playoffs.

And Clemson is elite right now but wasn't elite through most of dabo's tenure.  Truth is bama has been the elite program for the last decade, osu, clemson, and oklahoma have been the other really strong programs for the last five years and none of this says anything about where programs like michigan, texas, and usc will be five years from now.

I don't mean to be harsh but this entire analysis is garbage and basically meaningless - all you're doing is reiterating that certain programs have been good for some recent period of time.

Cheers.

ConfessedBuckeye

November 26th, 2018 at 9:22 PM ^

Sorry to reply again... the character thing is complete garbage too. Do we need to recap Frank Clark’s rap sheet? Or how about Grant Perry?

In fact, according to this, from 2010-15 Michigan had the most arrests of any Big Ten program other than Iowa.

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/wolverines/2015/08/18/michigan-football-player-arrests/31925649/

Finally, if you think Urban Meyer enabled Aaron Hernandez, you’ve obviously read absolutely nothing about that situation. Every account of Hernandez’s time at Florida says Urban was basically the only thing keeping Hernandez from completely coming off the rails. Urban literally met with Hernandez for bible study every morning!!!

The idea that your program stands atop an unimpeachable pedestal over the ‘elite’ college football programs is garbage.

Ramblin

November 26th, 2018 at 9:39 PM ^

This really bothers you doesn't it?  Look, Michigan is way dirtier than OSU.  We are vastly inferior academically.  Urban Meyer is a great man of exceedingly high moral character.  Ann Arbor is a cesspool of bagmen...  Are you happy now? 

ConfessedBuckeye

November 26th, 2018 at 9:44 PM ^

Just stop making dumb excuses.

Michigan just hasn’t been as good as Ohio State for the better part of the past 20 years, just as Michigan was better than Ohio State for most of the 20 years before that. Period.

It’s coaching and players and X’s and O’s. It’s not because Michigan is Mother Teresa and every other major program is a horde of African warlords. 

Ramblin

November 26th, 2018 at 10:10 PM ^

I hate to say this...  You are correct to a certain degree.  We certainly aren't Mother Teresa.  However, we ain't Baylor either.  We aren't recruiting like OSU, or Bama, or Clemson.  SEC bagmen have something to do with that.  SEC academic standards have something to do with that.  Cold weather has something to do with that.

Our inability to compete on a national level also has something to do with our refusal to run a modern offense, or run a zone, or prepare for OSU the way OSU prepares for Michigan.

Now, aside from the latest fiasco at OSU, Urban Meyer isn't blatantly scandalous.  That one is more about him being an awesome coach with a pipeline to the NFL.

All in all, I think it is a valid point to say that treating your team's football program as a minor league farm team is probably the best bet for winning.  Various schools do that to differing degrees.  Michigan isn't at the top of the list of them.  Not by a long shot.  I'm not saying that OSU is either, but there is more to this story than X's and O's and coaching.  That is a big part of it, but to think it is the end of the story is naive imo.      

Luke15

November 27th, 2018 at 1:51 PM ^

Here's the thing...

And I'm guessing I am not alone here. I have interacted with a lot of Buckeye GRADUATES. I once worked for one of the largest multi-national corporations in the world based out of Ohio and they recruited and hired quite a few OSU grads. So I had a lot of interactions with OSU people.

And by and large, I found OSU grads to consistently be some combination of meathead, idiot and douchebag. And though I did work with one guy whom I was told was intelligent, his social skills were horrendous. I also met and worked with a lot of OSU fans in this company that attended other Ohio schools that were considered academically superior like Miami University in Oxford, Kenyon, Xavier, etc. (everyone in Ohio basically adopts the Buckeyes as their team b/c there are no other good programs in the state). These OSU fans were a step up from graduates like yourself. Smarter, less socially awkward, less annoying to be around. They projected and occupied higher levels of the organization too.

Later in life, I have met lots of Buckeye fans, some of which attended school there and some that did not. Again, fairly consistent meatheads. Quite stupid, obnoxious and painful to be around. One guy that I worked with in Los Angeles, a true OSU grad, that rose to a VP level, ended up getting fired for embezzlement. First and only person I ever knew that achieved such an honor.

Anyway, I usually hang in there for a while and see if someone who attended OSU can prove me wrong. It is yet to happen. I don't agree with the OP that academic standards are preventing Michigan from being better than OSU. However, this does not mean your school does not have a much higher concentration of social douchebags and intellectual lowlifes like yourself. It does. Registering on your rival's message board and trying to defend your school is a good example of OSU insecurity. You can beat Michigan's football team over and over but never win. You can beat us, but you cannot be us, and that is what will always eat at you.

That's right, your football team has dominated us. Good for you. However, your school and the entire state of Ohio sucks. It is the armpit capital of the world. You have an ugly state, awful law enforcement, Big Lots and Cleveland. Columbus doesn't come close to Ann Arbor and there are no nice places in Ohio like Western Michigan, Traverse City and the U.P. I still would prefer being from the great state of Michigan -- beautiful as it is -- and attending the University of Michigan over having to claim Ohio as my home no matter how many times my team could claim victory over Michigan. 

One other story. Last year I was touring an art collection in central Europe that one of my friends and business colleagues owns and invited me to see. On one particular floor his Salvador Dali collection was on display and I saw a young man in an OSU windbreaker hustling by the paintings and making loud comments to his friends who were all obnoxiously yucking it up. I could not resist asking him if he went to OSU and he said "yes" and then talked up his team's dominance over Michigan, being sure to offer his best covertly condescending "it's okay, you'll probably get us next year" drivel. He then went on to make a stupid and crass joke about the nudity in Dali's paintings. Since I liked the idea that the price of his admission had essentially paid for the art books my friend had gifted me as mementos, I asked him to take a picture with me. Of course he formed the "O arms" over his head.

Ironically, we were standing in front of Dali's paintings of Dante's Divine Comedy when this occurred. As Brian put it yesterday, we Michigan fans might be in Hell as it relates to the current state of the rivalry. But at least it's an escapable Hell. All things are cyclical. We have been dominant in the rivalry before, and we will be again. Being from Ohio, going to Ohio State, feeling the need to form the O arms in an art gallery in Europe... well, that's a different type of Hell. Inescapable Hell. Good luck with that.

Ramblin

November 28th, 2018 at 3:26 AM ^

It's hypothetical, but I truly believe that if Urban Meyer was Michigan's coach, and the scandal happened at Michigan, he wouldn't still be the coach.  Regardless of how undeniably great he was at coaching football.  There wouldn't have been a rally to keep him.  I believe that in my heart of hearts.

Chris S

November 26th, 2018 at 9:46 PM ^

All good points my man. I hope we all don't come off like that. I didn't know about the arrest thing, either. Surprised to see Iowa on the top of the list.

We're all just going to be miserable and jealous for the next week or so. That's how it goes around here after The Game. Then the misery fades off.

M Go Cue

November 26th, 2018 at 9:31 PM ^

No offense, but it is just so pathetic to act like we are above it all, suffering for the sake of academic integrity.

Michigan football pulls scholarships, makes grayshirt offers, etc. just like SEC schools.  While pretty straight now, M hoops in the 90’s wasn’t exactly the epitome of integrity either.

We are recruiting fine, and will be fine as a team.  We will beat Ohio State again and will win the B1G, which is our usual goal and expectation.

Ramblin

November 26th, 2018 at 9:45 PM ^

We certainly aren't above it all...  Still, if my main concern is football, I'm not going to go to a school known for - at least in part, no need for another rant buckeye troll guy - challenging academics.  Seems like more trouble than it's worth.  That has to figure into this.  At least a little.

footballguy

November 27th, 2018 at 12:35 AM ^

Again, which is why I don't buy the academic excuse.

I said all of the good recruits are in the south, and the north has shit weather. If Michigan had a fertile recruiting ground, Michigan would win on more recruits. If Michigan had a warm climate, they would land more recruits. This is all true even if you keep Michigan's academic standards the same.

 

 

Chris S

November 26th, 2018 at 9:41 PM ^

This is an absolutely fantastic post. I rarely read diaries but the title caught my attention because I wrote up a post on my site about this exact topic yesterday, and sent an email to my friend as well. I agree one hundred percent and I have nothing to critique or disagree with. Literally nothing. You thought this thing through in the detail I was hoping for.

Here's my opinion on today's College Football status:

Elite

Alabama, Ohio State, Clemson

 

Second-tier

Oklahoma, Notre Dame, LSU, Michigan, Georgia

 

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the second-tier teams. I think Michigan is clearly above State, Penn State, and Wisconsin and will be for a long time. LSU is clearly better than A&M, Florida, and Mississippi State. Sure those teams will get us from time to time, but I think this year Harbaugh and crew helped us cement our place there for a long time. This is a huge step up from before.

The other thing to think about is that teams can play good, bad, or average on any given day. In the 2016 Game, I think Michigan played average and Ohio State played a little bit below average. Last year I think Michigan played above average and Ohio State played below average.

This year Ohio State played their best game of the season and Michigan played average on D and a little above on offense. There is literally nothing we can do when an Elite team plays their best game of the year.

And this brings me to my last point. The beauty of college football is it allows us to disconnect our rational minds for 14 hours every Saturday in the fall. I am fine with our coaches and with where our program is headed, and I understand we're not an elite program. And losses still crush my soul, ruin my week, and make me wish horrible things upon college kids. We gotta love it!

Chris S

November 26th, 2018 at 10:49 PM ^

I think they're the best of the second-tier. I think their program overall is a notch below Clemson and OSU. I base this all on the eye test from the previous three or four years. Definitely up for debate though.

DonAZ

November 27th, 2018 at 9:40 AM ^

Agree on Alabama, Clemson, and Ohio State being in the "elite" category.

Second tier is led by Georgia and Oklahoma, with Georgia showing signs of being ready to push into the top tier.  Maybe Oklahoma, but they have to show they can get past the big games.  

charblue.

November 27th, 2018 at 2:57 PM ^

Back in the day, when Bo's voice mattered, he set his goal each year on winning the Big Ten championship with the greatest emphasis on besting Ohio State, knowing that if you beat the Buckeyes, your team was probably good enough to beat anyone. And if you won the conference and went to the Rose Bowl, the first and greatest bowl game of them all, you were in elite company.

Well, that's still true. And, in fact, given the way things have evolved since he left the world, nothing is more true. And the man who once competed against Ohio State and Michigan and found the victory road here less well traveled in any meaningful way, took his talents to the Southland, which has tried to set up barriers protecting their recruiting hotbed ever since Nick Saban left MSU.

College football's Division 1 version of a championship is unlike any other competition in the NCAA sports kingdom. It's a fucking bathing suit beauty contest. All the dogs get to go to the bowl games that were created as marketing diversions for holiday travel excursions and they dictated how the college championship was decided by pundits of the game watching from afar instead of on the field. That is still largely true because money matters more than competition.

And so 130 teams compete for an arbitrary final four spots which make every other finish irrelevant and a TV delight in bowl game season, where every meaningless game fills the pre-Cbristmas ESPN agenda in virtually empty venues in pursuit of more ad dollars while the pursuit of greatness is confined to three games.

The crass commercialism of college football started when the bowl game was introduced as a post-season remedy for a designated national championship. And it has influenced how achievement and success is defined over time.

Bo knew this inherently. And so this smart guy put his stamp on the one annual goal he knew was within the control of his team each year, winning the conference championship. This aim has always befuddled Michigan fans who wanted more from a program whose primary aim is incorporated in its fantastic fight song, Hail to the Victors, the leaders and best.

You can't control what happens outside winning your conference slate because of the way college football's Divsion 1 championship is determined, you can only control how you play your season. And the one and only challenge each year is Ohio State. It was Bo's lifelong friend and foe. So, if you beat them, more often than not the national perception of your team, was framed accordingly. Lose, and well, your season was judged accordingly. Not because it was unsuccessful, but because it wasn't as successful in championship terms.

That is our yearly goal and dilemma. Winning this conference must always be the singular goal until the NCAA expands the pool of eligible teams for its championship determination at year's end when that one game isn't be all, end all. 

Every game still counts toward that goal. So the argument that perfection means everything is just a cop-out to critics and a marketing message for raking in the TV ad money. We will all keep watching meantime because we all bleed the colors that we wear and support.

The Barwis Effect

November 26th, 2018 at 9:46 PM ^

There are many major obstacles holding U-M back as the OP so astutely illustrates.  I think another one that doesn’t often get mentioned is the mindset and approach that the entire program—staff, players, and fans alike—takes toward big games.  

I really believe it wouldn’t hurt this program to drop the whole ‘This is Michigan’ arrogance and start approaching big games with more of an underdog mindset.  When was the last time this program beat a team it wasn’t supposed to beat?  It hardly ever happens, yet every time U-M plays anyone with a heartbeat, we approach the game like we are still Yost’s Point-a-Minute teams from the turn of the century, instead of the underdogs we truly are based on our poor performance in big games over the past 50 years. 

The problem wirh playing with the ‘This is Michigan’ mindset is that you end up playing tight, you end up playing not to lose. You don’t want to make any mistakes that could screw up your own self-inflated chances of winning.  As we know, however, teams rarely beat better teams by playing not to lose.

Instead, both staff and players need to take an underdog mindset—similar to what Dantonio has done vs Michigan—and play like there is absolutely nothing to lose.  History has proven time and time again that there really isnt anything to lose anyway.  When a team drops its overinflated sense of self-worth and goes into a game not only realizing, but embracing the idea that they are not expected to win, it’s amazing what kind of a performance they can turn in. 

Perkis-Size Me

November 26th, 2018 at 10:21 PM ^

What a lazy argument. Harbaugh has had no problems reeling in top-10 classes since he got here. He’s had two already and is probably on his way to a third. That is MORE than enough to beat OSU. You don’t believe me? Go ask Iowa and Purdue what their recruiting class rankings have been. Have either of them ever snuck into the top 20? Even when Clemson has put whippings on OSU, they did it without reeling in top-5 classes. They’ve been in the 7-10 range, right where we’ve been at.

I’ll agree that Michigan doesn’t have some of the same built in advantages that OSU has, like being the only P5 State school in a state abundantly rich in football talent. But it’s not like convincing kids to come to Ann Arbor is as difficult as convincing a kid to go to Helena, Montana. And besides, Meyer is extending his recruiting base well beyond Ohio.

I feel like arguments like this are just defense mechanisms you put up so you can claim your moral high ground and say “well we could be like you, but we’re too good to lower ourselves to your level because it’s not all about winning here.” Newflash: we don’t need to adopt that mindset to beat OSU. We don’t have to lower our standards to beat them.

DHughes5218

November 26th, 2018 at 10:57 PM ^

Michigan is ahead of OSU in the recruit rankings this year and we are about to land a 5 Star out of Columbus. So did we start cheating this year or did they quit? Also you began to mention how Ole Miss paid a few players and landed a top rated class, but you only mentioned one of those recruits. Could it be you only mentioned one because another one of those guys who surprisingly picked Ole Miss is now the starting QB at Michigan? 

Everyone wants to scream SEC is paying players when that five star offensive lineman picks Georgia over Michigan, but when Solomon yells F*ck Michigan and then picks us over Georgia, we assume he just wanted a top notch education. 

Please stop with we can’t compete because they cheat. It’s just ridiculous. If you think Alabama, Georgia, or Clemson has to pay a player to get him to pick their school over Michigan you’re crazy. Harbaugh and staff are doing a good job of recruiting considering we haven’t won a conference championship in well over a decade.

Ramblin

November 26th, 2018 at 11:31 PM ^

Certain schools are known to pay players.  Are you suggesting it isn't happening or that it isn't the cause of the BIG ten's struggles against some of those teams?  Or are you suggesting that Michigan is paying players now?  I don't think that we are, or that it is happening everywhere.  My Sparty friends always bring up the "it happens everywhere" thing...  It does but to differing degrees. Gibbons was disgusting and we handled it poorly.  However, we didn't recruit a known sexual assailant to campus only to have him rape someone then turn around and pass the buck...

Sticking with my basketball point, unless the news is all lies, money had a lot to do with certain teams landing recruits recently.  Pitino beat us in the national championship because he had a multi-million dollar payroll.  I think that probably influenced some of those players...  Is it OK to take offense to that?  We did it in the 90's.  That wasn't OK either and if someone wants to say it helped us win unfairly I won't come down on them for doing so.

Ramblin

November 28th, 2018 at 2:45 AM ^

https://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/adidas-says-rick-pitino-supported-paying-athletes/

They bought hookers etc and they paid players.  I forgot about the hooker part, but add payrolling to the list.  Hard to keep track of the sleaze...

That is basketball.  There are a lot of whispers about it happening in football.  Enough to make me believe it is probably true and at its worst in the SEC.  It was certainly true of ole miss football and it is almost certainly true of other SEC football programs.

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/4/10/5594348/college-football-bag-man-interview

Enlightening reading... of course to complain about it is to appear pathetic.  Better to give people like Rick Pitino, Hugh Freeze, and the schools they represent the credit they deserve and assume it has no effect on winning or losing...

 

Winning Wolverines

November 26th, 2018 at 11:31 PM ^

Thanks for the write up.  I certainly hope we always choose the path of character and integrity.

I like it when Jim Harbaugh quotes Bo, saying "If you cheat to win, you've already lost." 

Finding a way to be elite with character and integrity is challenging, but possible.  It will be that much more meaningful when we do it.

BenHogan1

November 26th, 2018 at 11:42 PM ^

Best article about how the SEC does it. Fuck them. 

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/4/10/5594348/college-football-bag-man-interview

 

       Michigan firing Harbaugh is not the answer. Some self-reflection based on CFB today

would be welcome. Bringing the offensive scheme into this century would be a great start.

Playing more zone coverage on D against elite speed would be smart too.

Better scheme was the biggest difference vs an Ohio state school Saturday. 

       The Domers won the game whistle to whistle basically playing a wildcat QB.

O didn't score til the 4th quarter and the game only was close due to a kick return.

They're better now and I will root for them against the southern cheaters or aOsu

just because. They have a shot vs Clemson or Uber but will not beat Bama barring

an injury to Tua. Or a miracle.

       Best examples of what happens with money and payoffs is what happened to

USC & Miami when they went straight, and what has happened at Georgia since they

got more crooked by bringing in Smart after he learned at St. Nick's knee.