Chiwolve

September 18th, 2018 at 6:55 PM ^

"But the reason that they get paid so much is clear enough.  Head coaches are paid to produce super-competitive teams"

I wonder what they need to produce said super-competitive teams?

Is the reason you turn into games on Saturdays to see Urban Meyer and Jim Harbaugh have a staring competition or write plays on a chalkboard?

Section 1.8

September 18th, 2018 at 7:19 PM ^

No.

But the reason I watch college football is not because I am addicted to football at the highest level.  I could watch the NFL, if that was my thing.

I never, ever watch the NFL.

I am interested in college football, because that is what I find interesting.  The regular turnover of players; their youth and the unpredictability of college football.  The exalting of institutional tradition, over any individual players.

If Big Ten football had to choose between "the NFL" or "the Ivy League" as a model, I would choose the Ivy League in a millisecond.

matty blue

September 19th, 2018 at 6:22 AM ^

oh. my god.

The U-M Athletic Department is not swimming in money.  They are begging me for more money on a monthly, if not weekly, basis.

yes, to pay for more shit.  you say that yourself in the next paragraph!

I have a real question in my mind about coaching salaries.  But the market dictates that.  It's a true, free market in an ultra-competitive environment.  

i can't believe you don't see the problem here.  you shrug that the market dictates coaching salaries, but that apparently same free market doesn't apply to the players themselves.  suggesting that the coaches have value but players don't is just so, so plantation.

congratulations on not buying food in the stadium.  i guess?

 

Section 1.8

September 19th, 2018 at 10:30 AM ^

So here we go with the "plantation" bullshit.

As far as I am concerned, there is no "market" for college football players.  The moment that they start getting paid, is the moment I am done with the entire enterprise.  I am out; not buying tickets, not supporting it, not watching it.  Fall is a great time to play golf.

Amateurism in college football is one of its great features, it is not a bug.

I seriously suggest that all of the social justice warriors who want to see 18-21 year olds getting paid for playing football, go start an NFL minor league.  And don't try to borrow off the credibility, tradition, history, pageantry and general model of college football.

 

matty blue

September 19th, 2018 at 1:53 PM ^

also bullshit?  "the moment they get paid blah blah blah."  i stand by the word "plantation" 100%, by the way.

still haven't heard you address why market value applies to coaches but not players, i'm guessing because it looks like the only defense you have is "i like it the way it is."  again - please note that i haven't said i think they should be paid.

M Go Cue

September 18th, 2018 at 4:32 PM ^

I know a lot of people here are calling BS, but I can assure you that there are plenty of university presidents who would be happy to manage a smaller budget if that meant no more football.

UMinSF

September 18th, 2018 at 4:59 PM ^

My position is probably unpopular, but it's the way I feel.

I believe we're heading toward a tipping point, where college programs (football and basketball) split into "semi-professional" or "semi-amateur".

With all the scandals, and the obviously corrupting impact of all the money flowing into these sports, it seems inevitable that a bunch of schools will eventually say "enough".  What would it mean?

"Semi-pro" Division: 

- larger "stipends"

- continuing arms race with facilities and salaries

- squeeze every last dollar possible out of TV contracts, ticket prices, concessions, etc.

- growing corporate sponsorship, or even direct affiliation with NFL/NBA

- probably allowing athletes to own their likeness - sort of olympic model

- possibly remove academic requirements completely

- continue to pretend bag men aren't doling out money

Outcome? Continue process toward true minor league for pro teams. Great training ground for future pros, but sad outcomes for those kids who aren't good enough. Probably somewhat less fan interest, especially in-stadium.

Likely participants? OSU, MSU, maybe PSU, Rutgers maybe a few others in BIG. SEC except Vandy. Half of ACC (Clemson, FSU, Miami, VT, NC, NC State. Most of Big 12, Part of PAC 12 - USC, the Arizonas, maybe the Oregons, maybe the Washingtons, maybe Utah and/or UCLA. Boise, Houston, SMU, BYU, maybe a few others. Total of about 40.

"Semi-amateur"

- restrictions on TV revenue, or naturally reduced income based on lower ratings/desirability

- restrictions on coaching salaries

- strict enforcement of rules, much more enforcement. No bag men. Possibly adopt olympic model regarding ownership of likeness etc.

- strict enforcement of real academic requirements. Scholarships guaranteed until bachelor's degree completed. 

- more university control of scheduling, etc. Game times set by schools, not networks.

- more control over games. Fewer TV timeouts, emphasis on in-stadium experience. Lower ticket and concession prices. 

Outcome? Much lower revenue. Fewer great players/teams. Attractive in-game experience, but fewer games nationally broadcast. Probably somewhat less general fan interest.

Likely participants? UM (I hope), Wiscy, NW, Minny, Purdue, maybe a few others in BIG, Vandy, Duke, BC, Virginia, GT, Pitt, Syracuse, Wake, maybe a few others in ACC, maybe Texas and/or TCU, Stanford, Cal, some others in PAC (maybe the Washingtons/Oregons, maybe Utah, Colorado, maybe UCLA. ND, Rice, Tulane, service academies, possibly even Ivies if they want to step up in a more amateur setting. Maybe around 40 schools.

As for the "also-rans" (Sun Belt, MAC, etc.), I imagine their numbers will slowly shrink as schools realize how financially stupid it is to try to compete. Many will probably move to DII.

At some point, being associated with the likes of MSU/OSU and the SEC is counter to the mission of the university. Sure, money is a powerful lure, but U Chicago and the Ivies walked away years ago - it's not unprecedented.

I love college football and basketball, but they become less fun for me in a direct relationship to the increase in money. Adding more money into the system and paying players make college sports less attractive to me. I've never had any interest in minor league sports.

Just my opinion.

Chiwolve

September 18th, 2018 at 5:37 PM ^

"I love college football and basketball, but they become less fun for me in a direct relationship to the increase in money. Adding more money into the system and paying players make college sports less attractive to me. I've never had any interest in minor league sports."

Umm what?? The money is already in the system and the NCAA, Conferences, Coaches, Bowl Administrators, and many others are paid quite handsomely for the work they do / do not complete.

So your argument boils down to - "If these 18 -22 year-olds, who are laboring and sacrificing to put out a product I already 'love', start getting a share of the money I already pay to watch the product they produce - I will become less attracted to said product."

Section 1.8

September 18th, 2018 at 5:55 PM ^

Those 18-22 year olds don't have to labor and sacrifice anything if they don't want to.  They are incredibly lucky to be where they are.

I already said; I am done with college football when and if they start paying players.  I hope that there are so many others out there like me, that no serious person will consider implementing it.

You have no idea how much I want this fight.

 

Chiwolve

September 18th, 2018 at 6:47 PM ^

So what if they are lucky to be where they are. You could argue that the majority of the American workforce is incredibly lucky to be where they are -- but I don't here people arguing that they should not be paid for their labor due to that fact.

People love to suspend their principles (for example, you seem to be a fan of free markets), when it becomes inconvenient. I'm glad you "want this fight" - it would be nice if you had an argument other than - 1) I don't like it and 2) the student athletes are lucky / fortunate, therefore, they should be grateful for whatever they are given

PapabearBlue

September 18th, 2018 at 6:52 PM ^

"Those 18-22 year olds don't have to labor and sacrifice anything if they don't want to.  They are incredibly lucky to be where they are. "

So where does the line get drawn for when somebody is worth something more than "basic" or not? Is it when it's an entertainment venue? Actors shouldn't get paid because they don't have to labor and sacrifice if they don't want to, they are lucky movie companies want to make movies with them? Or is it people with cushy office jobs? They shouldn't get paid more because they are lucky they don't have to be doing construction?

Like it or not, nobody outside of current students are watching Michigan Football because you or I are the ones out there playing, they are going to watch because these kids are actually good. They aren't any more "lucky" than anyone else that works their ass off and also happens to be some of the best at their job.

 

Section 1.8

September 18th, 2018 at 7:01 PM ^

But I'm not paying to go to a Lions game.  I've never paid to go to a Lions game.  And I won't watch them on television either.  I'm not interested in professional, or semi-professional, football.

I am interested in collegiate football precisely because of what it is.  I'm more interested in Yale-Harvard, than I am in Bears-Packers.

And I am out, when college football isn't that anymore.

UMinSF

September 19th, 2018 at 12:34 AM ^

As I said, Chi - it's just my opinion. 

So, to respond to your statement - yes. As you said, the money is already in the system, and it's exactly that (relatively recent) explosion of money that has slowly lessened my interest.

No so very long ago, Bo and Don Canham insisted that Michigan games be played at 1, because it was best for players, students, and fans attending the game. Ticket prices were lower than they could be, and people could bring their own beverages into the stadium. Fall Saturdays at Michigan Stadium were among my fondest childhood memories.

Has the emphasis on money made Michigan football better? IMO, absolutely not. Ticket/concession prices, endless TV timeouts, even noon kickoffs lessen the fun. Those TV contracts have badly damaged the in-game experience. 

Schools/conferences should prioritize what's best for athletes, students and supporters, rather than what makes the most money. 

IMO, college sports would be more fun with less money. Not everything in this world is (or should be) about maximizing revenue. Activities related to a not-for-profit University are very much included.

You totally lost me when you started talking about worldwide capitalism. It's a school, not a corporation. It's not a damned "product" - it's an experience, an activity, a sport. Dave Brandon thought of Michigan athletics as a "product". Dave Brandon is evil and stupid, and personifies everything I find harmful to college sports.

Most athletes have no chance to turn professional. They play for the love of the game, and for the scholarship. To me, that's fantastic, and fun to support and cheer.

For those few athletes who may have a pro future, their college experience is already giving them:

- scholarship, including R&B and a bit of spending cash (and even some swag when they leave)

- a spectacular opportunity to demonstrate their talent to their future employers

- free coaching, tutoring and training, and world class athletic facilities to hone their skills

- opportunity to become famous, which can be worth millions of dollars. There are VERY few Kobes and LeBrons - most athletes get far more fame and exposure playing college ball than they would playing in a minor league.

- valuable, life-long connection with fellow alums who love to provide opportunities to former athletes

It's bullshit to say that 100,000 people show up at Michigan Stadium because of the current players. Sure, Shea Patterson and Chase Winovich contribute to the fun and interest, but most people go to watch MICHIGAN, their alma mater or local team, or school with a winning tradition, or with their favorite mascot or colors, or just to enjoy a fall day in Ann Arbor. What I'm trying to say is that with few exceptions, the school makes the athlete famous, not the other way around.

I also don't buy that college athletes are indentured servants, "laboring and sacrificing" for the financial gain of their University overlords. It sure looks to me like the kids LOVE playing their sport, they LOVE being on TV and playing in front of huge crowds. I sure wish I could have "labored and sacrificed" like those kids - sadly, 6 footers with an unorthodox jumper and less than otherworldly athleticism don't get scholarships to play at Michigan.

Most players seem to maintain a life-long connection and affection toward their school, often much greater than their pro team. Michael Jordan still bleeds Carolina blue, and Chuck Woodson still bleeds Michigan Blue. Why? My bet is because they loved their time on campus and playing college sports.

Almost no one watches G-League basketball, and the players seem to want only to move on.

I like professional sports because I get to see the very best athletes compete at the highest level.

I like college sports because of an intimate connection with my school, and because I like to watch young people playing for the love of the game.

I like college sports more.

Again, just my opinion. 

Snake Eyes

September 18th, 2018 at 5:21 PM ^

Here's how I see paying players destroying college athletics as we know it (19-22 y/o playing for a limited time).

Once the schools start paying the players, they become employees. The schools are now no longer exempt through the niche carved out by the NCAA from the Sherman Act which prohibits unreasonable restraints on trade to promote competition.  How are schools going to tell a would-be sixth year player that he isn't allowed to continue his trade of playing football? Creating rules that locks out able-bodied competitors seems like a pretty clear violation of the Sherman Act.

Other sports are able to do this because of collective bargaining agreements that let the players collectively choose to follow certain rules (3 years from high school for NFL, 53 man roster).  The player unions don't mind these types of rules as the players are protecting themselves from competition and keeps their pay up, but what employee is going to vote for a rule that locks themselves out of making money when they are just reach their earning prime (ages of ~24 to 30)?

Since the schools will be required to let anybody work for them, college football just becomes a minor league team with a bunch of 28 year old's that are playing for a paycheck.  I think that would kill any connection the fans have with the players which would greatly affect the way they would support the team.

 

I also don't like the argument that we should just let the players make money off their likenesses.  This is just a veiled way of saying "let boosters give them whatever they feel like." Nobody really thinks that a high school prospect would be a good spokesman for The Related Companies, but big-time boosters will be able to essentially buy their own teams.

How happy would everyone be once some Russian oligarch or Kuwaiti prince's nephew decides he likes Michigan State football and throws money at a bunch of 5 stars for shits and giggles? I know this is a slippery slope argument, but there's nothing stopping it from reaching that level once the genie is out of the bottle.

Section 1.8

September 18th, 2018 at 6:07 PM ^

The simple reason that NCAA regulations and bylaws are so complex, is because people will go to such incredible lengths to skirt them.

Paying college players would be opening one of the biggest cans of worms in NCAA history.

 

Chiwolve

September 18th, 2018 at 6:51 PM ^

Yes, it seems to work in almost every other part of the global economy, but I can see your totally valid concern that paying people for the labor they provide would be more than our delicate society can take...

Section 1.8

September 18th, 2018 at 7:05 PM ^

wtf?  There are students "laboring" in the law quad, and the chemistry building and in East Engineering too.  We aren't paying them.

Really; any student-athlete who feels that their labor is being stolen from them should just get out and go to where they feel appreciated.

I want to make a really clear point because I see where you and I are headed here.  To the extent that college football is a "job" apart from school, which dominates time and energy and everything else and which looks and feels like a job; that is a problem with college football.  The answer is NOT to pay players for performing that job.  The answer is to change college football to make it less like any sort of a job, and more like a sport in which student-athletes participate for fun.

Paying players makes the problem worse; it doesn't make things better.

 

Chiwolve

September 18th, 2018 at 10:20 PM ^

So playing football is the same as studying now... give me a break.

BTW, if that law student or engineer or any other student came out with a market viable product from their work (an invention, an app, a startup), there would be no bullshit about them not getting paid and they should be happy with a scholarship or class credit as compensation. I guess you don't see a double standard in that.

BTW, it's fine if you would prefer to watch Yale-Harvard vs. Packers-Bears, in fact, I may agree with you on that point. But clearly there is a reason why the NFL and big time college football are worth billions of dollars annually and Ivy League football is not. My preferences (or yours) should play no factor in whether student athletes should be able to be paid 

matty blue

September 19th, 2018 at 10:23 AM ^

wtf?  There are students "laboring" in the law quad, and the chemistry building and in East Engineering too.  We aren't paying them.

no, we're not paying law students.  it should be pretty obvious why that comparison doesn't apply to this discussion, but just to hit a couple of the high points:  nobody is paying for tickets to watch students laboring in the law quad.  television networks are not paying millions and millions of dollars to broadcast a live shot of the main reading room at the grad.  alumni are not buying jerseys with the names of the our most talented medical students.

Really; any student-athlete who feels that their labor is being stolen from them should just get out and go to where they feel appreciated.

yes, they can go directly to the nfl and get paid.  they just have to wait three years so that they can sign a contract (a contract that was collectively bargained on their behalf)

I want to make a really clear point because I see where you and I are headed here.  To the extent that college football is a "job" apart from school, which dominates time and energy and everything else and which looks and feels like a job; that is a problem with college football.  The answer is NOT to pay players for performing that job.  The answer is to change college football to make it less like any sort of a job, and more like a sport in which student-athletes participate for fun.

but college football IS a job.  it DOES "dominate time and energy and everything else and looks and feels like a job."  the actual work performed by an nfl player is precisely the same as that performed by a college player.  literally the only difference is that we like to convince ourselves that we're somehow more connected to college players, be it by shared experience, or geography, or sheer fandom (news flash - we are not, certainly once we leave campus).

by the way, i don't disagree - at all - that college football badly suffers from the always-increasing infusion of absolutely absurd amounts of money.  i hate it, too.  but that problem is not going away, now or ever - there are way too many pigs at the trough for that to ever happen.  to me, it's time to distribute the wealth in an equitable way...your delicate sensibilities be damned.  sorry.

to me, a not-unrelated issue is that of player safety.  i think the last nfl player to die as a direct result of injury / illness was korey stringer, around 20 years ago.  the nfl players association successfully bargained for player safety as a contractual issue, and it hasn't happened since.  there's no such parallel for college players precisely because they aren't paid and thus are not be protected as a group (my apologies to civil rights / labor lawyers...i'm speaking as a total layman here).  we hear of college players dying just about every year. 

who speaks for the players, when they are unpaid independent contractors?

Tex_Ind_Blue

September 18th, 2018 at 5:44 PM ^

"I also don't like the argument that we should just let the players make money off their likenesses.  This is just a veiled way of saying "let boosters give them whatever they feel like." Nobody really thinks that a high school prospect would be a good spokesman for The Related Companies, but big-time boosters will be able to essentially buy their own teams."

---Boosters are already doing this. See Ed Martin. See Cam Newton's father. Also Olympic athletes of similar age are already doing this around the world. 

"How happy would everyone be once some Russian oligarch or Kuwaiti prince's nephew decides he likes Michigan State football and throws money at a bunch of 5 stars for shits and giggles? I know this is a slippery slope argument, but there's nothing stopping it from reaching that level once the genie is out of the bottle."

---Stephen Ross can directly pay the players to come to AA as well. MSU is kicking UMs behind for the past 10 years without 5 star recruits. It won't be worse than this. 

 

Section 1.8

September 18th, 2018 at 6:04 PM ^

Ed Martin was not a booster.

Alright; under the byzantine and ultraconservative definitions of the NCAA, Ed Martin was a "booster."  But ONLY by that definition was he a booster.

Ed Martin was a felon.  A scumbag.  A numbers-running union thug factory rat.

Ed Martin never attended the University of Michigan.  Not a student, not a grad, not an alum, not a donor.  He was not a Michigan coach or team member.  He was not on staff, was never a faculty member, and was not even (as far as I know) a Michigan parent or tuition-payer.

Ed Martin never gave Michigan a dime, as far as I am aware.  Ed Martin's specialty outside of federal criminal activity was that he curried favor with select young men from inner-city Detroit with superior athletic talent, for the purpose of hopefully capitalizing on their success someday for himself.  So he ingratiated himself with them, gave them money and favors and other things, and did almost nothing of any consequence at all for the University of Michigan or any other university.

And now, the one good thing about Ed Martin is that he is dead.

 

Alumnus93

September 18th, 2018 at 6:14 PM ^

pay the athletes and you kill half the other sports, that are subsidized by football and basketball.

they are being paid, handsomely, with a free education along with free food.... pay them, but then make them pay for school and food....and taxes, too...     and then you have implications of instate vs out of state players and the tuition....

works fine the way it is.... 

treetown

September 18th, 2018 at 9:45 PM ^

Hi, this isn't the naive statement it seems to be. It is really pretty cynical - basically it is defending the status quo under the guise that they are serving the educational mission.

Consider:

1. We have many students devote themselves to fields of study that are part of degree granting programs that have very little hope of every making a great professional living. I'm thinking specifically of music, drama and the arts. 

2. We have some students who do hit it big - every few years someone at the UM who did study music, drama or the arts does end up making a decent career of it. Just like most of the people who go to the top music conservatories like Julliard don't end as concert violinist, or pianists, a rare few do.

3. So what's the problem? The problem is that in those fields, the training and education (that's the student part) is actually aim at trying to help these kids succeed in their profession and are taught by people who are actually in tune with what the professional world is seeking.  How is that different than sports?

4. Well, there is no athletic performance major. There are music performance majors. There are art majors. There are dramatic arts majors. These not from some fly-by-night dubious diploma mills but from the so-called ivy league. In athletics there are inches of documents limiting practice, the nature of practice and so far. No such limits occur in any of the arts, drama or music. IF you can find a place to practice, you can practice your bassoon, oboe, or tenor voice to heart's content. IF you can get the canvas, paints, clay, or marble you can create as much art as you may want. Only in athletics is actually development of skill and ability consciously and deliberately hindered and obstructed. No one has to be paid, but they should have their training unfettered and taken seriously.

5. Rather than paying athletes, make their educational student component real. Make them real students of the game. Make actually work on their skills. Most of the team honestly aren't good enough to be performance athlete majors - just like most of the band and orchestra are NOT music majors. But for those who can - then let them do it and help them. This would eliminate a lot of the BS crap of fake courses and easy grading - The people who grade out as a performance athlete at the end should be good enough to be a pro athlete. How can anybody really say a program is good if the star QB busts out because they can't read a defense or understand how that is done?

6. I know that some will claim, pshaw, how can "studying" football, basketball, or any sport (e.g. discus, javelin, badminton) be considered a "serious" study? Really? When people devote themselves to writing long thesis about the symbolism of the use of the color red in Hemingway - why is it so hard to imagine that the study of any human endeavor that preoccupies a good chunk of the population of modern human civilization isn't a serious field of study? It is just snobbery. A quick perusal of the many technical entries on this site explaining the nature of offense, defense and the fine points of play for the different positions shows that there is no limit if one really chooses to take it seriously.

Hail2UM83

September 19th, 2018 at 9:22 AM ^

Call me old school, but If you have the opportunity to play for a D1 School for 3-4 years, have free room and board, get a 40k plus a year education paid for and walk out of college to either the pros or otherwise debt free...I call that payment enough. Sure increase the stipend, let these guys go out and grab dinner once a week and to buy a few things they otherwise couldn't afford (shoes,clothes, music, going to the movies etc.) but limit the amount they can spend per week then that's fine. But to give these guys a salary? Not so sure that's a Pandora's box anyone wants to open.