OT: Games of Thrones 6/2/13
What do you guys know about funny!!! That was pure comedic genius and you just see it as trolling... I'm disappointed but I accept that much like Jesus Christ, Einstein, and Chumbawamba, Jdon isn't appreciated in his own time...
There are several minor characters to this point (and some yet to be introduced) that have me anxiously awaiting books 6 and 7 in hopes of seeing them "get theirs" based on upcoming events. I won't give hints on the current villains, except to say that the books are just as unpredictable for them as they have been for the Starks thus far. Meaning you probably won't see what you hope/expect......................or will you?
What book are they at with the TV show now? 3?
About 2/3 of the way through book 3. Book 3 will continue into season 4 with a strong probability of books 4 and 5 being mixed in. Also, the Theon storyline is out of book 5.
Yeah, but parts of book 3, book 4, and book 5 all run parallel to some regard, so linear wise the reese/theon events aren't totally out of timeline.
I mentioned it because if he wants to get to the point where he's read "everything" that's in the shows, then he'll need to read all of the books.
When running the timelines in my head I really thougn this would be the season finale. They did a great job with this and my wife gave a very audible "ugh" when evrything began to unfold at the wedding. It seems that there can only be one other logical end point to this season, but I thought more transpired betwen the red wedding and "it" in the book. That seems to be the only thing that could rival the red wedding in the way of a climax. Anyway, can't wait until next Sunday, then it will be back to book one to start over for the offseason.
Well, there are about 400 pages between those two events and only one relevant chapter. I've had a theory for a while that they are going to finish up certain storylines from book 3 this season and then they can start bringing in some book 4 storylines next season. While interesting things are happening in book 3, they can start setting up plot for books 4 and 5. Then, when book 3 finishes and those storylines grow stale, the ones that they moved ahead on can start becoming a bit more interesting.
The previous two seasons the earth-shattering episodes were 9. The last was tying things up and setting up next season. Which doesn't send you out on as big a note, but isn't as much of a cliffhanger thing either.
I don't find the show as engrossing anymore now that I've read the books. I read them between last season and this one. Having said that, I think the books were definitely worth the read and, overall, better than the show. Plus, it's a lot easier understanding subplots and the characters themselves when you get 1200+ pages as opposed to 10 hours per season.
I think they (D&D) do extremely well at keeping the readers guessing..
I don't want to cite examples here but just in last night's episode there were two people at the wedding who should have not been, we as readers have no idea what their fates would be. And I like that.
Eventually the series will pass the books. How we readers deal with that I don't know...
The series isn't planning to go ahead of the books. Books 4 and 5 will likely be double season books like book 3. Given the wealth of new places and material in them, this seems very likely. By that time even GRRM should have book 6 out. And the show producers and runners have previous discussed putting in a pause or doing an interlude based on other content GRRM has produced in the ASOFAI universe.
So it is highly unlikely that HBO will start writing new plot. At worst, they'll work with GRRM to do pre-production based on what he's finished of the next book. FYI, book 6 is apparently 1/3 done with the first 500 pages roughly ready.
I don't know where you saw the 500 pages but that makes sense, seeing how he had a head start with chapters pulled from book 5...
I am just pessimistic on the complete timeline wherein I doubt we see a conclusion of the series before 2019 or 2020, and that is if things go well... I would bet we don't see WoW until 2015, plus there will be more Dunk and Egg... I have heard the rumors of dunk and egg to hold us over while waiting for Dream of Spring, but who knows really?
honestly I am interested to see what they do with the show once season 4 is complete. With the narrative structure of 4 and 5 they will obviously be joining them for the t.v. show, but things can be very strained on a tv audience at that point (especially considering how many new characters are introduced in books four and five)...
I'm rambling now, but I'll just stop and say that the completion of the series and the books will be a miracle if they are done before 2020, at which point the younger characters will be much too old looking... imho.
jdon
I watch the show with a bunch of non-readers so in a way knowing what happens, and seeing their reactions enhances the experience for me. I would say that if you enjoy the show alone, maybe "watch then read", but if you watch with a group then go ahead and read ahead!
This is really hard to answer without "spoiling" things in the books, but I would say it's definitely worth it. I enjoy knowing back stories and why things are happening a certain way. It also makes it easier to discuss the events because you don't have to worry about someone dropping a spoiler on you. When changes are made in the show, I'll often explain them to my wife because she wouldn't have any idea of the details that she's missing out on by not reading the books.
Plus, as surprised as you are, the big events are that much better in the books because you truly have no idea they are coming. On the show, the foreshadowing is almost painful because it gives away so much. I think if you read the books, you'll get to enjoy the big events twice. The first time will be better from the book. The second time will be slightly lessened but watching them translating it to the screen so perfectly and seeing others react to what you knew had been coming will give you a different type of enjoyment.
Plus, as surprised as you are, the big events are that much better in the books because you truly have no idea they are coming.
I wouldn't go quite that far. Most things, yes. When Dany fucked up the slavers in Astapor, that was out of the blue. And awesome. Other seminal events in the book, too.
The Red Wedding, though, is actually pretty well foreshadowed. Not that you'd guess what's about to happen, but there are a whole bunch of things that are just "off" that lead up to it. And I guess don't want to say too much for the sake of non-readers, but the style of the writing changes in the approaching chapters. Maybe it's not foreshadowing as much as a deep foreboding. But for me, as the pages got closer and closer to "Jaime Lannister sends his regards," it felt like an approaching storm. Couldn't have guessed how badly things would go, but I was convinced they weren't going to go well.
"Jaime Lannister sends his regards,"
What's funny/ironic to me is that Jaime, in his own way, is actually being his version of polite and even honorable when he said it, only Roose misunderstands him because to him and all Westeros, Jaime's the Kingslayer and of course that's what a Kingslayer means when he says that...
I think I have a different feeling with serialized treatments (comics and such) than stand alone, in depth things, like novels. Because they're adapting things differently. I generally think if you read something first, then see it on tv, it's going to disappoint because they're not doing it exactly as you wan them to. And TV and movies are visual medium, so shocking events are more shocking and visuals exciting. They do that better. What books do is get far more in-depth than any show can, and that's still there. If I knew the RW was coming, it probably wouldn't have meant as much on screen. If I see a scene on tv and know it's coming in the books, I still get all the added backstory, new characters, motivations, and things I don't get just watching it, so the book is very entertaining.
But I've gone both ways, and every reading/watching experience differs. But just a different angle. With the Walking Dead I watched then read, then watched. But something like that strays so far away from the source material, I'm not sure it matters. Might depend on the type of source material, and who is doing it. Things like Jaws and Jurassic Park lend themselves more to movies than books (and especially in the former case, are elevated in adaptation). But then you can get something like Iron Man 3, which if you don't know the source material, you probably love, but if you do, annoys you quite a bit.
So basically, I've given you no answers. Sorry.
There are lots of comments to which I could have responded for this, but I wanted to make sure this gets seen so people don't abandon the show.
For the non-readers, just remember that there was a large outcry against the show after Ned was killed and many people threatened to stop watching the show. However, that scene was necessary for Robb to become the King of the North. Certain things needed to happen the way that they did for the story to continue in the way that it did. When one storyline ends, another begins. I'm not saying that there is a silver lining in this, but as the story continues, I think you'll understand why this happened.
Valar Morghulis.
The thing is that with Ned and Robb it is initially shocking but after rationality kicks in, you can see that GRRM clearly signposted their respective demises and set it up quite nicely to where it was a logical payoff. Without going too much into depth, I will say I personally have some big quibbles with how GRRM handles these kinds of things in the later and as yet unfilmed books. I'm going to be really (and by really, I mean 'morbidly') interested to see how HBO handles A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons.
Also... is it just my faulty memory but is the other shocking thing about last night's episode the complete absence of boobs and butts?
ETA: joeyb's comments above mine are all pretty much spot-on.
With this plan books 4 and 5 could span 3 seasons and Martin would have four years from now to get book 6 published
This thread has almost as many posts as the rest of the season threads combined.
Right after the episode, I checked and there were 20 responses. I woke up this morning to over 150. Now, we're over 200. You can still tell where it happened though. Just look for the "well fuck" comment.
As a reader who has read the entire book series (1-5) for two rounds, I recommend watching this video:
Watching the non-readers' reactions after last night's show was priceless.
That compilation cut out the best part of this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNipTRi7t2o&t=17s
*gasp* *scream* *popcorn*
Holy crap, I want that I'm With The Band t-shirt.
Viewers got off easy, in fact. In the books, Arya's chapter ends giving you the impression that she has also been killed. IIRC it's much further along into the book before you learn that she was only knocked out, so you spend a good portion of SoS thinking she's dead.
The show never teases that idea - I can only imagine because the writers knew everyone would already be losing their shit after the wedding. It would have been easy to apparently "kill" Arya at the end of episode nine and not reveal that she was still alive until season four. But all the people swearing never to watch the show again might actually follow through!
WTF. Stop posting fucking details. Just quit. I've read them all, so no issue for me but many others (and mods) have asked repeatedly for people to not do what you just did.
All I did was talk about stuff that has happened up to this point.... Really not sure how I've ruined it for anyone. No spoilers here, no details about future events except to say Arya is still alive, which.... we all know that because the show DIDN'T tease her death. I'm pretty far from the first person to compare the events of the show to the events as portrayed in the books, too. So honestly, I have no idea what I've supposedly done wrong here.
so I'm just jumping into the fray now, but I've been reading... This is my kind of blog ... over 200 posts about Game ot Thrones, Brian tosses the Minard infographic on the home page and it's a Michigan blog to boot.
Commence stream of consciousness...
As a non-book reader, I did indeed have Robb's death spoiled for me on this very blog earlier this season, so thanks whoever you are, but whatevz. I didn't know exactly how it would happen. I think the dong-punch was Cat buying it. Probably the most devastating final seconds of any show I've ever seen. Well, you know what ... how soon we forget Lori's c-section on TWD, but this was more shocking. Love both shows, Sundays are always "nice."
This event reminds me of "Luke I'm you father/losing his hand/Han in carbonite" on some major steroids. But that's what made Empire so great.
For the first 50 minutes I was cringing over how close Arya and Bran were coming to being reuinited with Jon and Robb/Cat ... then neither happened. I suppose Dog sitting there eating pig's feet probably saved Arya's life, otherwise she would have been at the reception on time.
Where did Blackfish go after he whizzed?
There has been some talk on this blog about the show overtaking the books, and I think a good way to allow GRRM to either catch up or talk his time would be to spread out a season by doing some flashbacks a la LOST. Each of the ten episodes could feature Robert and Ned fighting alongside Jorah to defeat Balon, taking the Iron Throne, and Jaime's SLAYING of the Mad King, seeing how Wylla and Ned's affair happened, Ned's father and brother being murdered by the Mad King, etc.. They might need to find some younger actors but that would be fun to watch on screen even though we know what's going to happen. Just to see an opening scene of "season 7" or whatever with a young Ned and Robert sitting in a tavern drinking and halfway through their conversation you realize it's them ... Just a thought.
Back when Arya was serving as Tywin's cup girl she talked about the Targaryen sisters who rode the dragons as if they were her heroines, and Tywin commented on it. I think there's something to that, but that's totally my guess ... again, I have not read the books and please don't confirm anything as such if you did.
Love this show. Love this blog. Thanks all.
The show isn't going to overtake the books anytime soon. We have at least two more seasons of content from the currently released books. Book 6 will be out by then (probably this year or next. It's called Winds of Winter so maybe a winter release before next season) and will add another 1-2 seasons of content. So, now we're talking about the show overtaking the books sometime around season 7. That's 4 years out. I read somewhere that GRRM is has 25% of the next book completely done. I assume that means edited and that he is putting finishing touches on the rest. I thought I also read somewhere that he's already started on book 7 so hopefully he will be able to finish that up in the 2-3 years between finishing book 6 and the start of season 7.
regarding the show taking over the books... (and this will be a long-ish ramble)
The producers are very likely in a 'we'll cross that bridge when we get to it' mode. And that's understandable because they will have a lot of other things on their plate. But if the TV show continues being a ratings success, it WILL overtake the books.
What became A Feast for Crows (published in 2005) and A Dance With Dragons (published in 2011) were originally two parts of the fourth novel that was intended to follow A Storm of Swords (published in 2000) The original plan was also to have the fourth book set 5 years after Storm in order to give things time to settle down. This would have given time for the surviving Stark kids/Dany to hit puberty, etc. It would have also necessitated a ton of flashbacks, so that notion was scrapped. What then happened was that Feast and Dance were split up geographically because there were so many divergent point-of-view chapters... not the most ideal solution, but certainly an understandable one.
Still, somewhere along the line, GRRM painted himself into a corner. Some folks may be optimistic about Winds of Winter coming out soonish because 500 pages of it are already written and simply didn't make it into Dance. That's super - we heard that song and dance before in 2005:
They may be able to start filming Winds of Winter by the time, you know, it's actually done. Even GRRM can get a book done in 5 years' time. If 2014 is the 2nd half of Storm, and 2015&2016 are some mashup of Feast/Dance, then you can get Winds in 2017. That's very doable. Even if that happens, GRRM still has to write the seventh novel and there is no way that's happening by 2018, let alone 2019 or 2020.
Now, there is some reason for guarded optimism here - the Feast/Dance bit represents the middle hump of a story that any author - particularly GRRM - will tell you is the hardest to slog through. (And if you've read Feast/Dance it certainly shows, imo) If he's moved past that, then it might be clearer sailing for the last two novels.
These are outweighed by all the reasons for pessimism - A Game of Thrones' success has given GRRM even more side projects on his plate; in addition to non-novel series projects like editing sci-fi compilations and guest appearances at conventions. Hey, if he's getting to reap the byproducts of his newfound fame, more power to him, but it does add to an already busy schedule. Moreover, I personally feel he's lost control of the story and he'll have to do a yeoman's job of getting it back on track in Winds of Winter. He'll be the first to tell you he's not a fast writer and well.... people's exhibit A is the last thirteen years.
I know GoT is a big hit for HBO, but they've cancelled big budget shows before. Deadwood and Rome were both cut short, with the stated reason being financial and not ratings-related. Honestly, I wonder how many more seasons GoT has coming. I figure if we're lucky, we get two more years for five total, at which point we're more or less caught up with the books (assuming we don't get the next one by then, which I think is a 50/50 proposition at best.) If HBO has to wait for another book, I think that's the death knell for sure. If we're to get a sixth season, that will probably require the sixth book to be released prior to or around the time the fifth season airs. But a seventh season seems an impossible dream either way, as we won't get the seventh book anywhere within a workable time frame, and I'm far less optimistic than others that HBO will just write it themselves from there on, in order to extend a show that has already run for six years and cost a ton to produce.
I hope to be wrong of course, just as I hope the sixth book comes out this winter and the seventh book soon after that. But I'm not sure I see it happening. Maybe I'm just feeling sorry for myself because The Borgias just got cancelled (lousy Showtime - It was your best show!)
I don't think this has been the Borgias' best season, although I still think it's a better show than most of what's on TV. The unfortunate thing is that one more season would essentially finish the story, as two of the major characters are nearing the end of their historical plot lines, as it were. So it's a bummer to me that we can't just get that one more season.
This is what will keep Game of Thrones on TV. They have continuously increased their ratings each season. With all of the talk about the Red Wedding and a strong finish this week, season 4 might even top The Sopranos' best season. As long as they are bringing in subscriptions, they will have what they need to continue. If the show starts slipping and losing viewers, they'll either have to cut back the budget a bit or cancel the show. Either way, I think this next episode and next season will keep adding subscriptions. Depending on how they handle season 5, I could see them getting cut off after season 6, but I think they'll make it 7 or 8 seasons. Keep in mind that the Sopranos made it 86 episodes and Game of Thrones has a lot more content to work with, so 8 or 9 seasons to finish the 7 books isn't really out of the realm of possibility.
I agree that the ratings are a great argument for keeping GoT going, and I certainly hope those ratings stay high because I want the show to run as long as possible. But it is still very expensive, so it won't have to dip in ratings as low as some other shows have dipped in order for HBO to become conflicted about keeping it. Trying to be as vague as possible and keep myself out of trouble here, but there are those who think the books start to become a bit less interesting once we've passed a certain couple more big events in book three, and if the show doesn't spice things up a little compared to a lot of book four and five (or if some of the people upset about the RW decide they don't want to watch anymore,) then I can see the ratings coming down some. It'll still be HBO's biggest show - or one of their two biggest depending on where BE goes from here - but it'll also continue to be easily the most expensive. Lena Dunham's boobs come a lot cheaper than CGI dragons.
Well, I expect that any dip in the ratings will cause them to re-evaluate what they are doing with the show. As long as they are increasing viewers, keep doing what you're doing, but once there is a sign of a decline, you either scale back expenses or cancel the show. I think that the Red Wedding and this final episode will result in increases in viewers for next season. If they do what I think they are going to do with next season, I expect an increase in viewers in season 5, at least for the first episodes. They typically greenlight after seeing the results of the first episode, so that would mean a 6th season. However, if there is a dip next season due to the red wedding, I'd guess that we might not even get a season 5 or 6.