OT: Toomer's Corner Poisoner Faces Up To 40 Years
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/story?id=6575499
Sorry if this has been posted already, but I couldn't find it anywhere. I read this and was left dumbfounded. How can a guy be facing 40 years in federal-pound me in the ass-prison for poisoning some trees. I can understand some punishment but I don't think I would ever wish 40 years on someone just for killing some trees. Sure, if an OSU fan came into the Big House and completely poisoned all the grass, I'd be upset, but I wouldn't be calling for the head on a plank.
Secondly, how do they select jurors in this case? Does the prosecution come right out and ask where potential juror's football allegiances lie?
Just wondering what you all thought. I was shocked at hearing this. Also, it's a pretty good read for those who have not read it yet.
I'd just make him pay for it, plain and simple. If he can't, put him in a work program and seize whatever he has in the bank until costs plus interest are paid.
Also, the replacement cost of the trees is huge. Just because the school's revenue is huge-r doesn't mean that 60k for each tree plus a six figure soil-recovery effort isn't a big expense.
Aside from that, living down here in the south, I can tell you that the Auburn fans do love them those trees. As others pointed out, 40 years is potential maximum.
I know this, I was just trying to think of an example on the fly haha. But thank you for pointing out my lack of complete thought.
He's not getting 40 years unless the judge is an Auburn grad and a lunatic.
One unfortunate thing about crime beat articles is they always report on the absolute maximum sentence, when rarely is anything even close to that actually delivered. Every time you read "faces up to year in prision," for example, you might as well read it as "probation and fine or a weekend in jail" unless the defendant has priors.
I can totally see an OSU fan trying to sneak into Michigan Stadium and attempting to poison field turf.
put him in an Alabama uniform(since he loves them so much) and force him to punt return at every AU practice for 5 years. i think that would learn em
I don't think he should get jail time. If he does, make it 6 months max. Let him pay restitution instead. Let him work the rest of his life, knowing that he has already pissed almost every penny he is making.
I must admit, though, that the part of me that is appalled at what he did would like to see him sentenced to work in a toxic waste dump the rest of his life.
"deterrence."
Let the message go out, to anybody who had a notion to poison the Buckeye Grove trees, or the Arboretum, or a thousand other similar places -- if you do this kind of premeditated symbolic hate-crime, you're not going to get punished as an ordinary property offender. You're going to get a life-changing stretch in prison.
I would very much like for this guy to be famous not just for poisoning the Toomer's Corner trees, but for getting X years in prison, for poisoning the Toomer's Corner trees. I want him to be famous and immediately recongizable for his jail sentence, first and foremost. That's deterrence.
And you can add to that as much "restitution" as needed.
My concern with jail as a solution is that it does nothing for the injured party. Auburn would be better off getting the remainder of his life savings/pension/whatever plus having free labor for twenty hours a week or however long until he paid off the value of his damage. In this case there will be a clear-cut dollar value and he should simply be made to pay it off, plus some type of damages and interest on top of that. Him rotting in jail does nothing to fix the problem that he caused.
I don't think I excluded "restitution" at all. You can pile on as much restitution as you'd like to. If you want to try to figure "the dollar value," it's okay with me if you take that from him. (I'd doubt that he's collectable.) But I honestly don't think it is possible to figure any "clear cut dollar value" if you are simply concerned about making a party whole. That's what civil cases are for; making injured parties whole.
This is a crime. Behavior that is an offense to the entire state. If you want payback from the guilty party, that's okay. That is, after he spends some very hard and very miserable time in jail.
Him "rotting in jail" sends a message, to every other shithead out there who might think of doing this, that they will go to jail if they try anything like this.
Some problems can't be "fixed." This is the kind of problem that we don't want to go around, time and time again, "fixing." We want to prevent these sorts of problems, not fix them. And you prevent this kind of problem by making it clear that a terrible punishment goes along with this crime.
The problems he caused. It won't fix the soil, for sure. It doesn't get the trees back in their original state. They can be replaced with money, but trees of that age and size aren't easy to transplant, even if you dug everything up for a 100 cubic yards and made the ground safe again. They can use it for other purposes, but just like a civil case in a murder trial, it does really return things to a proper state.
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<br>You can debate 40 years all day long, but Section 1 is right, the idea is to make the next fan think twice before doing something so awful.
But the best way to proceed is to make him reimburse Auburn for their expenses, plus a penalty and interest if it's applicable. Ultimately, you're right that things won't be the same, but things will certainly be no better by making Updyke go to jail, either.
Making him pay back the (probably huge) cost of soil cleaning, transplantation of trees, and a fine that goes to Auburn is the best way to deter this in the future. How many Oklahoma fans are going to think twice about killing Bevo if the punishment is paying for the damages by working in an orange shirt on campus in Austin for the money they couldn't pay up front?
Also, to Section 1, I just don't see the crime against the state, with the vague exception that Auburn happens to be a state funded institution. This was a crime against property owners, and the entire intent of the law should be getting them back to full. Calculating an exact cost will be easy when the whole thing is finished, it would just be a matter of adding up bills. Until then I'm sure there are experts who can provide a provisional ballpark figure.
We apply "compensatory damage" principles to mere negligent destruction of property.
We apply "punitive damage" principles to intentional torts.
And we apply "retributive" and "deterrent" principles to criminal acts.
As far as this guy's punishment goes, it's fine to make him pay for the cost of the damage. (Again, I doubt he can possibly pay for all the damage he's done, but if he can, fine.) And, he should be punished. With jail time. That part is retributive justice for a criminal act, and also a collective state act of deterrence.
The part where he said, when he wakes up every morning, he instantly checks the Alabama fan forum.
Ouch. I mean... ouch!!! Now that I have an iPhone, I'm checking Mgoblob about, what, 20 times a day, including when I first pick up the iPhone in the morning. (Like today. Did the silent commit get revealed? What about the 2-days-to-armaggadon for tSIO, which was now 4 days ago? Has Tress been bought out, as Bernie reported? There's something every morning to check.)
We're all addicts, I guess, it's just that some of us -- uh, them -- are crazy insane too.
Can't believe it took that long for someone to mention that part.
I don't know much about how this particular poison effects ground water....but I do know that Dow Chemical and hundreds of others dump shit into the Great Lakes on the regular which is probably a thousand times worse than what this guy did and upstream from millions of people that drink that water. Not saying it's that relevant....just got me thinking about how much time I'd do in jail if I dumped thousands of gallons of chemicals into the water like they do....also about how companies get away with atrocities like that where as people are made examples of.......and also that the pope shits in the woods and water is wet.
I'm going to do my best to tread lightly on the political line here, but honestly, a statement like that requires a preconceived political belief that is poorly backed up and not too logical. Spike 80DF is a powerful toxic herbicide that's regulated. You don't think that if huge chemical plants were regularly dumping something "thousands of times worse" than Spike 80DF into the water supply, there wouldn't already be a mass health crisis?
If most Americans were to drink untreated ground water, there most certainly would be a mass health crisis.
No it doesn't require a preconceived political belief at all. The fact that it happens doesn't require a political motivation- and it does happen. I'm not saying that Spike 80DF isn't as bad of a chemical, but I'm definitely saying that companies are putting a hell of a lot more of it into the water table than a single person who poisoned trees in a confined space.
The water table argument is just reasoning to get the maximum penalty for this guy. It may have an effect on the water table immediately surrounding the trees, but it certainly is nothing compared to what industries are doing on a daily basis. Yes it's off topic, but it's another way to look at it. That guy is without question a dick and should probably serve some jail time, but contextualize it with what goes on in the environment on the norm-- if "they" are going to make the argument that he poisoned the water table therefore endangering the lives of thousands of Alabama residents, they should probably hold others that pollute the water table accountable too if it's really that dangerous.
He may have inadvertently poisoned the water table in the area--putting many thousands of people in serious danger.This is getting a little hysterical. Are there any cases of tainted drinking water in Auburn, Alabama?
JM, the penalties are maximum penalties allowed under the various laws involved. There are probably numerous charges that have been brought, including intentional endangerment under various federal EPA laws/regulations. Each of those carry fines/sentence guidelines that add to the potential total of 40 years. Regardless of hysterics or lack thereof, it is what it is. Unauthorized dumping of outlawed substances is a serious violation of federal law that carries still penalties. The actual damage is immaterial in a way. Its clear that the chemicals caused significant damage (see dead tree) and leaked into the ground. I do not think the government needs to show contamination to the ground water to prevail.
Anytime I see something like this all I can think of is Donte Stallworth getting 26 days in jail for vehicular manslaughter while driving drunk. Some things are just ass backwards. This guy definitely deserves jail time, but not 40 years (I realize it's just the max he could get).
They will assess the fair market value of the trees (they will not assign some additional value because the trees are special, btw), and they will fine and/or jail him for property damage in that amount. It will be in the 1-3 year range, max. Or, more likely, he will plead to a lesser offense and receive a small punishment and likely avoid jail altogether (depeding on his criminal record).
If they want to really go after him the property owners can bring a civil suit. Then they can bring in experts and try and convince the judge/jury that the true value of the tree is more than FMV, etc.
See the above regarding violation of federal environment laws. Those charges, if brought, go above and beyond a simple valuation of the trees destroyed.
I don't think he should get 40 years like most but if he does at least it will be one less insane person walking the streets. When he gets out I would like to see him do an insane amount of community service which involves planting trees. I would like to see our justice system focus more on trying to make something positive out of something negative rather than focusing solely on the punishment.
Have the trees actually died yet? IIRC nobody at all knew about this until the guy blabbed about it on talk radio.
One has and another is pretty close.
Interesting. Imagine if this guy had kept his mouth shut. The trees would have started to get sick, and then it would have taken a long time to figure out what the problem is. Then there would have been no suspects.
That's a good point about the water table. I remember one of the forresters saying that he had done extensive damage that would require soil remediation as well.
Basically, he created a little mini-brownfield.
And this guy is an ex-cop. Effing douche.
Is there a difference between killing a group of trees and killing a group of horses? or dogs? or any other animal for that matter?
If you are killing the trees for the purspose of using the wood to build a structure then I guess it is more justified, but this man was out to destroy for the sake of destroying. The punishment for waste and destruction should be severe.
I actually like this viewpoint. Well played sir.
that matters here. People are not morally opposed to cutting down privately-owned trees on a small scale-whether used for a good purpose or not. If I don't like the way a tree looks in my front yard and cut it down and let it rot in the backyard no one will care. If someone else comes on my property and cuts it down and lets it rot we do care. The only difference is the trespassing.
People are morally opposed to killing dogs and other animals, though. Hence animal cruelty laws. If I decide one day I would have preferred a brown dog rather than my black one and I shoot it/abuse it/whatever, people will be morally outraged and I potentially face criminal penalties. It's even worse if a stranger comes on my land and does this to my dog because you add in the element of trespassing. Moral outrage (existing laws back me up, there's no tree cruelty laws out there) + trespassing > just trespassing. There's a difference.
If I'm driving wreckless and kill your dog, in PA the dog is considered property and restitution would only be the amount the dog was worth. Happened when my coworker's family dog was killed at a family picnic. Lawyer told them it wasn't worth the lawsuit.
I also think you can kill your dog as long as it is done humanely, that is to say with causing it to suffer. Motive doesn't count, so you can be an asshole that kills his dog when you catch it having sex with your wife and not be charged as long as you aren't inhumane.
I'm not a lawyer. These are just things I've encountered (besides the dog and wife thing)
it's intent that matters, which is why I added the abuse/kill for the animal as an option. If you intend to cause suffering to your own dog and abuse it or kill it, it's a crime (not sure if it is everywhere, I'm not a criminal lawyer). The difference is that no matter what you do to your own tree--it's not a crime. You can stab it, spraypaint it, chop it into little bits, deprive it of water, call it names....there's no crime. Not the case with certain animals. There's an element above any beyond trespassing that people and the law care about when it comes to domesticated animals.
Sorry, I wasn't asking the question for an actual answer. I was more or less expressing that there shouldn't be any difference. I understand that outr collective love for companion animals has pushed the laws against animal cruelty, but I would question why it isn't the same for trees and other plants as well.
in Montana. He should be sentenced to a forestry agent on a ball and chain for the rest of his life.
This may not be why he is facing 40 years, as it is based solely on a few minute convo with a friend of a friend at a wedding a few weeks ago. Mgolawyers can correct me if I am wrong - the phd student noted, as part of his research, that many groups that do property damage are now getting charged under the patriot act and are tried as terrorists. his research related to militant environmental groups that will burn down headquarters of places they disagree with...but again, property damage alone with no apparent danger or harm done to any people has landed some 18, 20 year old kids in jail for 20 years. could be why this guy is facing 40 years, could legally be deemed an act of "terrorism", despite not being what i would imagine most of us think of as terrorism.
Hard Times are coming for this gentleman. He was man enough, or at least he thinks he was, by calling into the Finebaum radio show & mouthing off as to his brave act.
Things don't look too good for you now , doe they.... Al from Dadeville. It's prison time for you, amigo !
1st degree murder case, non-capital. The 32-year old defendant was found guilty and will be spending the rest of her life in prison without the possibility of parole.
A 40 year sentence, in this Bama fan's case, is essentially a life sentence for destruction of property. IMO, that's way too much.
I can't wait to make this joker cry when we paste his team in his home state next season.
Have 5 18 andunders going in for extortion.
they started out with life>
One has a free ride in football, schollie. At Western, sry about his bad luck///////////////////
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toilet paper his trailer after win from now until death.
or he has to pick up all the trash in Jordan-Hare every weekend, and pick up the tp at Toomers Corners
This is ridiculous! My cousin's girlfriend, her brother, and his 5 month old baby were killed in a car accident on NY when a 17 year old (no drugs or alcohol) was dragracing a friend. They were going 145 in corvette's on a residential road. The kid KILLED THREE PEOPLE and got FOUR (4) (CUATRO) FOUR YEARs in prison... this guy could get 40?? give me an effing break.
Sorry, I've been doing this crime thing a long time and that is overkill. Hell, I have covered murder trials that don't even carry that long of a sentence.