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Your example is the exception

Your example is the exception rather than the rule. Of course you would rather be Tom Brady rather than Jamarcus Russell, but, in the long run, you would rather be a 1st round pick instead of a 6th round pick.

It's a similar argument that fans make every year about recruiting. Ah, recruiting isn't that big of a deal because great player XYZ was only a 2 star but that 5 star was a bust. Sure, you can always pick out exceptions, but, looking at the large picture, your team has a better chance of winning with 5 stars rather than 2 stars.

This discussion has taken a strange turn anyway. The NFL careers of Troy Smith and Tom Brady have no real relevance to whether a recruit wants to be coached by Urban Meyer or Jim Harbaugh. The fact that this was prompted by a RB recruit makes it even less relevant.

My point is that a college

My point is that a college coach wants to develop his players into high draft picks (I picked 1-3 rounds but that could be debated). Teams pay good money to these picks and want to ensure they succeed.

I pointed out that Michigan did not develop Tom Brady into a desirable draft pick. If they did, he wouldn't have gone in the 6th round. Does the fact that he became a much better QB in the NFL than college serve as a compliment to his college coaching?

Recruits want to be turned into high draft picks, not draft sleepers who pan out a low percentage of the time. If a coach is producing lots of high draft picks, they are doing a good job at the college level. Once the players get to the NFL and get nice contracts, it really is up to them to put in the work to determine if they are going to be decent or great.

The last half of your paragraph has really nothing to do with my previous post.

Do you think the Michigan

Do you think the Michigan coaches made Tom Brady the NFL player that he is or do you think Tom Brady deserves most of the credit (along with BB)?

The Michigan coaches coached Brady up to be a 6th round draft pick. Would you assign his success in the NFL to Michigan, or to his development since then?

By my count, Urban put 16 players into the first 3 rounds of the NFL draft from 2006-2011. At OSU, he has put 5 players (not his recruits, whether you want to count that for or against him) into the first 3 rounds in 2 years.

Urban took a 2 star QB in Alex Smith and turned him into the #1 overall pick and he's still a starter 10 years later.

Success in the NFL is very much dependent upon the player and being lucky enough to land in a good organization.

College coaches can develop players into highly regarded prospects who get drafted into the NFL and get paid. Once there, what more can a college coach do?

For what it is worth, OSU has 3 rookie OL who were drafted last year and are now starters. They have a WR starting for the Panthers, a CB starting for the Broncos, a LB starting for the Steelers, and a RB splitting time with Frank Gore, all from last year's draft class.

Trying to point out that past OSU coaches have not developed draftable QBs doesn't seem very relevant to Urban.

If you are trying to say that Urban doesn't develop NFL talent, then the numbers don't seem to back you up on that.

OSU rumors say that Dunn

OSU rumors say that Dunn might transfer to Youngstown State if he doesn't make a move on the depth chart this spring, FWIW.

Why is that relevant?
Urban

Why is that relevant?

Urban just had Carlos Hyde go as a top 3 RB in the NFL draft last year and Ezekiel Elliot looked like the best player in CFB over the last 3 games.

I think that's a lot more appealing to a RB recruit than stats about the NFL productivity of Jim Tressel's skill position players...

Why would it?
College coaches

Why would it?

College coaches have experience in taking HS kids, winning a lot of CFB games with them, and developing them so they get drafted into the NFL.

NFL coaches have experience drafting college kids and then winning NFL games with them.

Wouldn't the college coaches who have been turning HS kids into drafted CFB players be more relevant to a HS kid than an NFL coach? It seems to be that college coaches are the ones with experience developing kids.

I doubt it plays a huge role either way, but I don't see the advantage the NFL coaches have in this instance.

Turns out kids can grow up a

Turns out kids can grow up a little bit when the go to college. Who knew?

As opposed to Michigan fans

As opposed to Michigan fans who never ridicule their coordinators?

Every fan base that cares bashes their coordinators, justly or unjustly.

Many believe co-OC Ed

Many believe co-OC Ed Warinner will be promoted to be the primary OC with playcalling duties. The new hire will likely be a co-OC with a focus as QB coach. It's quite possible he wasn't offered play calling duties.

That's the joke...though

That's the joke...though apparently the poster I replied to didn't know about that game.

My biggest complaint is that

My biggest complaint is the author seemingly trying to say that "no championships in 3 years, Meyer must not be very good." In reality, Meyer is 0-1 for championships. He was denied the opportunity in 2012 (and would have likely won). In 2013, OSU lost to a great MSU team. That's a fact, but MSU won the Rose Bowl. They lost to a good team, it happens. 2014, everything is stacking up against OSU, but the game hasn't been played yet, let's wait and see.

Meyer is 3-0 vs Michigan so I'm not sure why it matters that Tressel beat Michigan with a freshman QB.

Urban's defenses haven't been great, no, but the game has changed a hell of a lot since 2002. Who has a great defense? Bama? The Bama that just gave up 44 points to Auburn? Tressel lost 2 national championships in a row with a great defense because his offense couldn't keep up with UF and LSU.

Anyway, the point is that this post is very premature. If OSU loses tonight, everyone will rightfully say: "Well, they had some really tough luck at QB, but they made the best of it. That's a good coaching job." I'm sure there will be crazies out there, but crazies will be crazy. And if OSU wins tonight, then this whole post is just ludicrous, as this season would have been an incredible coaching job.

If only one of Tressel's best

If only one of Tressel's best teams had gotten a chance to play one of Urban's best teams on a big stage, then maybe would could have seen who was the better coach...

You compare Urban to Tressel

You compare Urban to Tressel and say "It's been three years of falling short for some reason, or another."

1) It hasn't been 3 years of anything. OSU is in the B1G championship game and could very possibly make the playoff. How about we see if they win or lose the B1G before calling this a failed season, eh?

2) The 2012 season Urban went 12-0. How in the world is that falling short? 2012 was a huge success, taking a 6-7 team to go undefeated. The fact that they were inelligible should make the accomplishment even more impressive. Year 1 = huge success.

3) Tressel never had to play B1G championship games. If Urban were playing under the same championship system (and weren't inelligible in 2012), then Urban would be a perfect 3 for 3 with B1G championships and probably would have played in the NC game last year.

You can't asked questions about whether OSU would do as well against the teams during the Tressel era without acknowledging that OSU would already be the conference champion right now, in a season that you are alluding to as "failed."

A more reasonable narrative reads:

2012 - A+ coaching job, stayed home due to outside forces

2013 - Would have won the B1G under old rules, lost to 2 best teams they played, disappointing ending

2014 - Lost Heisman contender at QB, expected to lose 2 or 3 games, instead makes the backup a Heisman contender at QB, on the verge of playoffs and B1G championship when backup gets lost for the year also, pretty rotten luck, now on QB #3 and TBD

But that's not really a narrative that matches the one you were looking for...

Mark

Hoke said he was somewhat aware that one his players put a spear in the ground before the game but "not fully aware"

I mean I guess if you are as

I mean I guess if you are as bad as Purdue has been, trying emulate Oregon can't be worse than the status quo, right?

He went outside because it is

He went outside because it is illegal for Peppers to go inside in this game...

They probably don't want to spend more than 10 minutes practicing Special teams, so they made rules that limit the complexity.

Just like the LBs aren't allowed to blitz, the FG rushers aren't allowed to rush inside of the wing, they are only allowed to go outside.

Peppers got through untouched because the wing wasn't expecting him to break the rule...

I'm just trying to point out

I'm just trying to point out that, if you take a step back and look at this situation, Michigan fans aren't really acting any better than the OSU fans that you are pointing a finger at.

When a Michigan player is accused, many Michigan fans try to poke holes in the story or else just loudly exclaim that the fans must have deserved what they got. OSU fans assume guilt and make out Lewan to be the devil.

Reverse the situation and you would likely see the same reaction, just switching the fanbases.

Fans are fans, and Michigan fans aren't magically better or more morally in the right than any other. Look at these comments and you will find fans applauding assault and comparing entire fanbases to pedophiles.

Also, if you think that OSU has been consistently beating Michigan over the past decade plus because of tattoos or peeing in alleys then I just can't help you. The games are won by players and coaches, and Michigan players have committed crimes of their own (whether or not this one turns out to be true). Just look at the recruiting battles that OSU and Michigan have, and you can tell that they are recruiting the same players, so the argument that Michigan only recruits "Michigan Men" simply doesn't hold water. Until this incident, many would probably call Lewan a true "Michigan Man." 

I just want to point out that, by labeling huge groups of people with the same brush, you are acting the same way as the opposing fans that you are calling out. There are good Michigan fans and bad Michigan fans, good OSU fans and bad OSU fans. Who are the "good" guys and who are the "bad" guys simply depends on which side of the rivalry you fall. There are many here praising violence against others based on this arbitrary divider, which I would hope a fanbase like Michigan's, one which claims to hold itself to a higher standard, would find disgusting and unacceptable.

It looks like you put a lot

It looks like you put a lot of effort into this post, but what does it have to do with the topic at hand?

It appears that your line of reasoning goes: several OSU players have gotten into legal issues, ranging from no charges to misdemeanors, and some others have gotten into NCAA issues.

Due to this, and their fans "not caring" about these incidents, this report should be given zero credibility. Is that correct?

I totally agree on waiting for the facts to come out before judging, but I just don't see why all of the justification of "we are the good guys and they are the bad guys" is necessary.

It doesnt seem relevant and it seems that many fans cling to this idea of fan base superiority to hang their hats on. You only need look around this thread to see various posters insinuating that the OSU fans deserved anything they got, etc.

The fan bases are not that different, so it seems that sides should hold off from trying to claim moral high ground.

Taking a look around this

Taking a look around this topic will show a number of Michigan fans who are acting in the exact same way as you are describing.

I think the saying about glass houses applies in this situation...

FWIW, 247 Sports just

FWIW, 247 Sports just reported that Crawford will be visiting Ohio State on Feb 8th after attending an awards banquet in Columbus. This one probably isn't over.

Glenville kids are always

Glenville kids are always strongly encouraged by their HS coach to wait until NSD to commit. The idea is that the more coaches come through their school to see them, the more likely it is that some of the non-high profile players will get noticed and offered.

It seems to work fairly well for them. If you look back at the big names from Glenville, some choose to commit early, but the rule is almost always that they wait till at least January.

So far not even a single Michigan writer has gone out on a limb to predict either anywhere other than OSU, so I would save your excitement until something happens to change that.

They didn't know what was

They didn't know what was coming all day. What they did see was Michigan come out in a formation, call a timeout, and tell their players what to expect if Michigan came out in that formation again. Here is the quote:

 

“Right before the play, Coach Meyer called a timeout and when we went over to the sideline, the last thing I remember is Coach Coombs like, ‘Tyvis, they’re going to motion into triple stack, and (Dileo) is going to run the angle route,’ ” Powell said. “And I was like, ‘Yeah, we watched that on film. That makes a lot of sense.’ “Me and Joshua (Perry) made a swap call, and Josh ended up going on the blitz. He got the pressure on him, (Gardner) threw the ball and I was able to listen to Coach Coombs and boom, there it was.” To call Powell shocked that the play unfolded exactly as he expected would be an understatement. “I was thinking to myself, ‘Coach Coombs is a genius,’ ” Powell said. “You know, it kind of shocked me. I was like, ‘He really threw that ball.’ It was just shocking to me that he really threw it. I guess they practice it and that’s their bread-and-butter play on two-point conversions. All week, that’s what we practiced at practice. That’s what they were going to do on two-point conversions.”

For those calling BS, here is

For those calling BS, here is a more full quote from a different site. If you really think that the player is making it up, I would love to hear why.

 

“Right before the play, Coach Meyer called a timeout and when we went over to the sideline, the last thing I remember is Coach Coombs like, ‘Tyvis, they’re going to motion into triple stack, and (Dileo) is going to run the angle route,’ ” Powell said. “And I was like, ‘Yeah, we watched that on film. That makes a lot of sense.’ “Me and Joshua (Perry) made a swap call, and Josh ended up going on the blitz. He got the pressure on him, (Gardner) threw the ball and I was able to listen to Coach Coombs and boom, there it was.” To call Powell shocked that the play unfolded exactly as he expected would be an understatement. “I was thinking to myself, ‘Coach Coombs is a genius,’ ” Powell said. “You know, it kind of shocked me. I was like, ‘He really threw that ball.’ It was just shocking to me that he really threw it. I guess they practice it and that’s their bread-and-butter play on two-point conversions. All week, that’s what we practiced at practice. That’s what they were going to do on two-point conversions.”

 

http://ohiostate.scout.com/2/1352398.html

It should be noted that you

It should be noted that you are listing the players' current experience, not what it will look like next year.

 

Next year, OSU's OL will look something like:

 

LT – Baldwin (Rs Sr) / chance of JuCo Mavety if he picks OSU

LG – Elfein (Rs So) [note: replaced M. Hall today]

C – Boren (Jr) [note: played a good deal early in year due to Linsley injury]

RG – Farris (Rs Jr) / Underwood (Rs Jr)

RT – Decker (Jr) [returning starter]

 

It will be a dropoff from 4 seniors on the OL, but not terribly different from the experience level of the 2012 OL.

Baylor's offense is not

Baylor's offense is not really the same as OSU's. Baylor runs a variation of the Air Raid, I believe, while OSU runs more of a run first power spread.

They have similarities, but Baylor wants to typically beat you through the air while OSU wants to beat you with Hyde and Miller.

Saturday is Senior Day and

Saturday is Senior Day and the graduating seniors will be honored.

Roby is a 4th year Junior who knew going into the year that this would be his last. He wanted to take part in the senior day traditions with his incoming recruiting class and be honored as a Senior (it is his 4th year and he should graduate in the Spring).

He is just making it official because he will be treated as a senior this weekend.

Didn't he suspend Hyde for 3

Didn't he suspend Hyde for 3 games even though no charges were filed against him this summer? That doesn't make any sense...

You realize that this isn't

You realize that this isn't Pryor selling the ring on eBay, right?

This is one of the items that he sold to the tattoo parlor that started the whole scandal. This appears to be someone associated with the tattoo parlor in some way attempting to re-sell the ring. Presumably the items were returned to them after the owner was investigated in the unrelated drug sting that started the mess, as there is nothing illegal about buying a player's item.

It wasn't mid-season, but

It wasn't mid-season, but here is OSU's OC talking about his failures in their game at Wisconsin last year:

Q: Which defense that you faced last year posed the most problems?

A: Absolutely, Wisconsin. Without a doubt. Their defensive coordinator Chris Ash, who I knew from my days at Iowa State and am good friends with … I felt like I got out coached. He was very simple. He did not call one blitz on first or second down. He called one front and one coverage. Within that front and coverage, he could adjust to any formation or motion we gave him. And he had his kids extremely well coached up on recognition of plays and alignments.

We were trying to run the ball into a nine-man front. I did a poor job in not having confidence in our throw game. You have to throw it over their heads and our guys have to make plays if they are going to commit both safeties to the run the way that they did. Even though we won in overtime (21-14), Chris had his guys more prepared than I did. I learned from it. And it’s better to learn from a win than to learn from a loss, I can tell you that.

 

http://btn.com/2013/06/19/tom-herman-we-just-keep-plugging-away/

I watched Bama play LSU and

I watched Bama play LSU and even they pulled out a fake punt and a flea flicker in that game.

Their offense is also cohesive in that they run believeable play action passes off of an effective running game, keeping the defense off balance.

What Borges is calling would not be idiotic if there were a believable run game to accompany play action passing. But the fact of the matter is that everyone knows Michigan can't run the ball from under center, so continuing to pretend to do so only results in a very beat up Devin Gardner.

Unfortunately for Borges, this is not a perfect world where he has a dominant, experienced O-Line, and he gets paid to put the players he has in a position to succeed. He is most certainly not doing that right now.

Good teams self scout and try

Good teams self scout and try to identify their own tendencies before opponents can take advantage of them.

They also have a cohesive base offense that they can execute well and does not tip off the defense early.

Let's take the example of OSU:

They run almost all of their plays out of 11 personnel (1 RB, 1 TE), and their base play, the Inside Zone read, looks identical to their base play action passes for the first several seconds of the play.

The defense knows that they can run the zone read, where they have to focus on stopping Hyde first and foremost, but also worry about containing Miller. They also know that they can run it with play action with a variety of routes, but linebackers and safeties are in a bind, as cheating towards either the run or the pass leaves them vulnerable to the other, and there isn't much of a way to determine what is coming until after the play action fake/handoff.

Even if corners play off the WRs to prevent the deep ball, they have built in package plays that allow the QB to fake the handoff and fire a hitch out to the WR while the line run blocks.

 

In Michigan's case, new formations are being wheeled out mid-season. These plays sometimes work when the defense is unprepared (i.e. Minnesota and tackle over), but once it is on film the defense knows what is coming and the offense does not seem to expect this and come prepared with effective counters to what the defenses will do to attack it.

When Funchess is lined up in line at TE, how many of those plays are running plays? Probably not a ton. Even if they are, it has been established that Funchess is not particularly effective at run blocking.

Defenses at this point in the season can know the possible plays that the offense can run out of a formation. A cohesive offense, however, makes the defense worry about covering the entirety of the field from any given formation, and punishes them harshly for cheating on a play.

Even bad defenses like Nebraska are cheating as hard as they can and bringing guys right where they think the play is coming, and they were right more often than not and continued to do so because they were not sufficiently punished for it.

It should also be noted that,

It should also be noted that, while not typical, Urban Meyer, a "guru" HC, was never a coordinator either. He went from WR coach at ND to HC at Bowling Green.

It may have actually allowed him and his staff to be a bit more creative. They got to create their own offense by bringing together various concepts from around the country that they liked, and they got to experiment with it at BG, where losing was the norm, the risk was somewhat low, and Urban didn't have anyone above him questioning the experimental (at the time) offense.

 

Even if you do get elite

Even if you do get elite coordinators, you then have to contend with the fact that most great coordinators eventually want to become head coaches. There are exceptions, sure, but in most cases, if you hire a staff of elite coaches, you have to find a replacement for them every few years as they move up the ladder.

This means that your team is good, which is great, but if your head coach isn't the one with the system and the intricate knowledge to implement it, then you are going to have to struggle with a lot of turnover when you lose your great assistants.

If your HC is the "guru" and the one calling the shots, the loss of great coordinators still hurts, but shouldn't be as crippling to the program, as it at least still has the "keeper of the system" on staff.

Even if he hasn't interviewed

Even if he hasn't interviewed yet, it is generally accepted that he will be asked to interview at some point. 

The FAU AD worked at OSU for years and has basically stated that Fickell is the top candidate. Whether Fickell will take the job is certainly up in the air though.

Fickell definitely takes a

Fickell definitely takes a lot of heat from Buckeye fans, but it should be noted that OSU's defense currently is ranked 9th nationally in total defense and 10th nationally in scoring defense for this year.

He's certainly earning his paycheck this year, even if fans like to fixate on a couple of bad games last year.

Anytime something bad happens

Anytime something bad happens to OSU, there is almost always a post about it here.

The difference is that there has been a whole lot of Michigan issues for OSU fans to enjoy this year, and not very many OSU issues for Michigan fans to laugh about...

Please cite a source for #1

Please cite a source for #1 if you are going to make a claim like that. That's a nasty rumor to spread about someone you have probably never met, especially when it seems like there is no basis to it.

As for #2, yeah he had a lot of arrests, but it wasn't exactly "record setting." I believe Georgia had more over the same time span, so it wasn't even the most in the conference. And Michigan just had a player arrested a week ago, so it's probably not the best time for pointing fingers elsewhere.

And the recruiting rankings sure don't show UF "being out-recruited for 3 years" prior to Meyer retiring. Here are the recruiting rankings from 2006-2009 for UF:

2006: #2 nationally

2007: #1 nationally

2008: #3 nationally

2009: #11 nationally

 

The upperclassmen in 2010 were exceptionally talented. What hurt UF the most is that their best coordinators got hired away as HCs and Urban retired in 2009, only to be convinced to come back as a shell of himself in 2010.

He was indeed very highly

He was indeed very highly recruited, but for what it's worth he had been seemingly favoring OSU since Tressel was there but OSU took Ezekiel Elliot instead of waiting till NSD for him.

And he was good in the Army game, but he wasn't MVP like you seem to be remembering. He rushed 8 times for 49 yards. Good, but not head and shoulders above the other players there.

And, for what it's worth, 247sports had him as the 8th best running back, and their composite had him at 4th best.

Don't get me wrong, those rankings are great, but it seems like a lot of UM fans got caught up in a positive feeback loop where they held every high ranking of him as sacrosanct and ignored any that said he was good but not quite "Freshman All-American elite."

There were plenty of warnings to tell fans that they shouldn't expect Adrian Peterson day 1, but they were mostly ignored, it seems like.

Expectations were sky high

Expectations were sky high for him among UM fans.

His big upside was supposedly that he had a college ready body out of HS and had an unusual size/speed combo. Fans saw him as the #1 ranked RB (on some sites, which are obviously the only ones that know anything) and expected him to come in and be a freshman All-American.

His HS film showed that he did not really have great balance and did not break a lot of tackles for a player his size against HS competition, but that wasn't important because, #1 ranked RB!

He came into Fall camp and rather than the large but slim bowling ball he was in high school, he seemed a bit "doughy," at least in the eyes of some.

He hasn't been able to earn more than a few carries over Fitz, who has looked much worse due to the OL, but probably isn't much more than serviceable in the type of offense that the coaches want to run.

When he has gotten time, he hasn't really flashed the way that stud freshmen RBs tend to do. Even if stuck behind a veteran, most 5 star running backs manage to earn some carries as a freshman, and even if not, they bust big plays in garbage time and show their natural ability.

He's gotten 2 TDs, but generally hasn't quite broken arm tackles and shown the natural ability that fans would expect out of a #1 RB recruit.

He still could have a good, maybe even great career at Michigan, but early signs are not nearly as promising as fans (maybe unreasonably) expected, so their revised expectations are rather low.

The tweet:
 

Tom

The tweet:

 

JuJu Smith said he thinks Michigan is a great school, but not a fit for him. Cancelled his visit said losses caused them to drop on his list

OSU will probably take a step

OSU will probably take a step back on offense next year, but I don't think it will be as significant as you think.

The biggest hit will be on the OL, losing 4/5 starters. We won't know how they will perform until they actually see action, but the 2nd team OL has played well in mop up duty and the few spot starts they received early in the year due to injuries went fairly well.

At RB, they lose Hyde (and Hall, not that he sees much time now), but Freshman Ezekiel Elliot has already passed up Rod Smith, Warren Ball, and Brionte Dunn (who is in line for a redshirt this year) and he has been working in with the starting offense when Hyde comes off the field. He looks like a future feature back.

At WR, they lose only 1 starter, Philly Brown, who has been consistently good but not quite gamebreaking. They return a strong group of receivers, including true Freshman Dontre Wilson who has seen an expanding role as the year goes on and should be featured heavily next year.

They return all their TEs, including Jeff Heuerman, who just had a 100+ yard receiving game against Purdue.

The biggest loss of course would be if Braxton declared early for the draft. At this point it is very much up in the air. It is a very deep QB draft, so it would seem wise to return for his senior year and attempt to boost his stock for the next draft. Losing Braxton would make the offense a big question mark at least until spring ball, as no one has really seen Cardale Jones or redshirting JT Barrett run the offense yet. 

To sum it up, OSU will likely return about half of its offense next year, and the skill positions already have backups seeing game action this year and ready to step into the starting role.

If the OL is at least decent, then the offense will be good once again. And their OL coach Warinner turned their 2012 OL from a weakness into a strength, so there is history to say he could do so again.

Your point about the OL next

Your point about the OL next year is especially alarming.

It is agreed by all that the OL is a disaster this year, and that is with 2 talented, experienced OT manning either side of the line.

The interior of the line has been revolving, porous, and just plain bad, for the most part.

Next year, optimistically you could argue that the interior will be more experienced and will improve. An average improvement from their current state will put the interior line at "serviceable."

Unfortunately, the 2 hardest positions on the line to play, LT and RT, will be filled with young guys who are, at best, RS Sophomores(?), and possibly younger, depending on who wins the job.

This year's excuse on the OL will be that it is young, but at least there are 2 seniors veterans anchoring each end. Next year's will be arguably younger(!), and while the interior has gotten experience this year, it is arguable if that experience has been good, and it also has been minimized by all the rotations.

 

Next year's future doesn't look that bright...

Please read my post again. I

Please read my post again. I already addressed your concerns. I was comparing the first 2 years, and stated that even if Urban lost every game from here on out, he would still be ahead. And that doesn't seem very likely.

And football is all about a few plays here and there. The difference between beating MSU on the road by 1, or beating Wisconsin in their own house in OT, or coming back to prevent a loss to a bad Purdue team, versus losing? That difference is coaching.

Games that aren't close often are that way because of talent disparities. The games that are close are when coaching decisions truly determine the win or the loss.

 

Meyer hasn't lost at OSU. Not once. He's currently +4 on Hoke in the loss column and is headed towards being +6 or +7.

Yes, spin.
You are trying to

Yes, spin.

You are trying to make Hoke losing to good teams as a positive, while trying to make Urban beating some bad teams as a negative.

At the end of the day, the fact is that Urban has yet to lose, while Hoke did 7 times over that time span. Yes, Urban has more games to play this year, but he has already matched Hoke's win total for that year and still has 5-6 more games to play. And Meyer will be the favorite in every game scheduled for the rest of the season, at least until whatever bowl game they end up in.

Well that is one way to spin

Well that is one way to spin it.

Another is that Meyer has not lost in 20 games so far.

Meyer won 1 more game and lost 2 less his first year.

Then Meyer started 8-0 his second year, while Hoke went 8-5. Meyer could lose every single game for the rest of the season, and his first 2 years would still have a better record than Hoke's.

Yes, Hoke played Alabama and Notre Dame, but take those away and Meyer is still easily ahead.

I have a question that maybe

I have a question that maybe you could shed some light on.

 

What makes the fundamentals that Hoke's staff is trying to teach different from the fundamentals that Kliff Kingsbury has successfully installed in year 1 at TT, leading them to a #15 ranking so far with a walk-on playing QB for them for much of the year?

Or how different are they from what Meyer did at OSU last year, taking an offensive line that had lost 3 five-star OL and having to start a converted TE at RT who had never played a snap of OT in his life, yet still managing to end up in the top 10 in rushing offense in year 1 of a brand new system that their players were not recruited into?

 

Obviously TT runs the Air Raid and OSU runs a power spread, but my point is that these offenses have successfully transitioned to a brand new style of offense, taught the players the fundamentals for it, and have been wildly successful in them ALL IN YEAR 1!

TT and OSU have not sacrificed their fundamentals for winning early. They installed their fundamentals quickly, continue to improve upon them, and run their offense in a way conducive to success.

Do Hoke's staff's fundamentals intrinsically require more time, experience, strength, and size to master? If so, what advantage do they have over these other teams that are able to run successful offenses in such a style nearly immediately?

 

If the staff is making such a sacrifice, what are they gaining out of it as opposed to the other systems that work fast and work well immediately?

Fans' patience shortened

I think that, consciously or not, many fans have shortened the amount of rebuilding time they are content to deal with due to OSU's nearly unprecedented success with their regime change.

Watching OSU struggle through their scandal with a 6-7 record probably led many fans to imagine that OSU would hit a similar downturn as Michigan with RR, and that Hoke would very quickly ascend UM back to the top of the B1G.

But then in came Meyer and 20 wins, and Hoke's 11-2 turned to 8-5 and then this year all confidence was restored with a win over ND, only for it to be shattered into pieces by squeakers over Akron and UCONN, followed by the ugliness at PSU.

For fans who were expecting/hoping that OSU was trending down after 2011 and that Michigan was on its way to the top of the B1G, everything is all topsy-turvy and upside down. It is not too surprising then, when many fans are reaching towards the Panic Button, ready to hit it at the next major setback.

I did some digging and even

I did some digging and even though I thought Green was invited to The Opening, his name does not appear in any of the databases from this past year's Nike Combine results. 

I did find an interview from his junior year, however, where he ran an electronic 4.58 40. How much that changed his senior year, who knows.

 

http://espn.go.com/high-school/football/video/clip?id=6598882

Does anyone have a link for

Does anyone have a link for an OSU site reporting Hoke to the NFL? The first I heard of this rumor is here, where a recruit mentioned it and then it was instantly assumed that Urban was spreading dirty lies.

The only Hoke to the NFL topic I've seen on 11W was one linking to mgoblog and asking why it was being taken as fact that Urban has been spreading such a rumor.

I do not believe any reputable OSU site has had a word to say on the matter.

Do you have any examples of

Do you have any examples of starters who deserve to have been dismissed? Mewhort and Stoneburner peed in an alley and then ran when the cops turned a flashlight on them.

Stupid? Yes. Worthy of dismissal from the team? Well I would say a DUI would be about 100 times worse and I do believe Fitz remained on the team following his punishment.

The pair were suspended from team activities over the summer, were fined (their scholarships for their summer classes were pulled) and I'm sure ran until the never wanted to see another alley in their lives.