I'm not sure why Detroit needs so many columnists to write the same exact thing. I'm half expecting Drew Sharp to realize this and start a Save RR campaign.
Final straw: Latest loss shows Wolverines need change
Why is the notion that Rich
That's not the issue.
It's, as the OP wrote, that they all "write the same exact thing."
LSA, Class of 2009
But his thread title stated
But his thread title stated that Wojo was "at it again," presumably meaning he was again suggesting Rod should be fired. I think that is the part with which the second poster was taking umbrage. Even the most ardent supporter of RR can no longer say that people calling for his ouster are out of line.
I think people calling for RR
I think people calling for RR to be fired are still out of line. I guess that takes me beyond "ardent supporter". Some of us have something called patience. We are incredibly young and inexprerienced on both sides of the ball. I am shocked people are all up in arms when teams loaded with upperclassmen(Wisconsin and Ohio State) beat us soundly. Let's see what happens when Michigan has a team loaded with juniors and seniors.
It's simply people living in the past Michigan glory expecting too much out of a rebuilding project. Sure if they fire RR now and bring in some new coach they will reap all of the rewards of the young, talented team that has been put in place. Then writers like Wojo will pat themselves on the back and tell everyone again how awful RR was while Harbaugh will be such a great coach for winning with all of RR's players.
I respectively disagree
i don't think they are out of line. I think it is up to the fans to expect greatness and not tolerate mediocrity. Do we want to fall into the Notre Dame trap? One bad coaching hire can kill everything such as dilute rivalries or lose the tradition that we rely on for recruiting. Kids these days don't care about tradition as much as what have you done lately. I believe that if we want greatness and if RR can't lead us to it, then he should go. So far, he hasn't shown that even with an additional year that this team could compete with tOSU.
I see greateness on the
I see greateness on the horizon. I just don't believe you can judge a coach who is playing with a team that lacks experienced talent. It's not an excuse, it's an analysis of the roster. We are too young to compete with teams like Ohio State and Wisconsin that have juniors and seniors throughout their roster.
I agree one bad coaching decision can kill everything but Rodriguez is not a bad coach. He has a proven track record of success. Do you really think he got to the Big Ten and forgot how to coach? He doesn't have the experience to compete with top ten teams yet. We are rebuilding for the future, it takes time.
Notre Dame is a different situation. Charlie Weis, Tyrone Willingham, and Bob Davie had very little proven head coaching success at the college football level. RR has a resume that puts to shame to any of Notre Dame's hires other than Brian Kelly.
I agree with the inexperienced roster, but
but isn't he the source of that inexperienced and disproportional roster? DId he forget how to coach? His record says yes. I like RR and think he should get one more year, but I won't shed a tear if he is done. As much as all those cliched excuses sound, the number and quality of the wins are the elephant in the room that some people who acknowledge.
The Notre Dame Trap
Incredibly ironic. The Notre Dame Trap is being mediocre because you fire a good coach before he has a chance to win. Charlie Weis had 10 wins with Willingham's team.
You don't just fire a good coach because you don't "tolerate" mediocrity. Look at the fucking reasons that the poster gave, no one "tolerates" losing, they recognize that the reason is probably not that RR is a poor coach, therefore firing him would be wasteful.
You fire a bad coach.
While you don't fire a good coach; you do fire a bad coach (or a coach whose performance has been bad). Keeping a bad coach around will only make things far worse in the long term. Three years in and RR's team was still not even competitive with the top of the conference. Our five losses came by a total of 87 points (and average of 17.4/game). Our three conference wins were by an average of 6.6 points. It's pretty clear that we're closer to the bottom than we are to the top. That's not the mark of a coach whose performance has been "good".
Facts
Uh-oh....you brought out some facts. People aren't going to like that.
You fire a coach when it
You fire a coach when it becomes clear that the program is going nowhere with him in charge. The overall progress has been slow and RR has made huge mistakes and misses, and while I no longer feel certain that Michigan can get to the top under RR, I am not certain that Michigan is getting nowhere with him either; I just don't know either way. For me, the lack of experience and talent is more a reason that you can't tell what the ceiling is. I think that there are systemic problems with the defensive coaching staff and that poor defensive recruiting does fall on RR, but I don't think we know whether whatever it is he is building will actually work, let alone whether he can build it.
Ann Arbor is a classy broad.
"Get off my plane!" - Ricky Stanzi, Air Force One 2
The Notre Dame Trap is being
The Notre Dame Trap is being mediocre because you fire a good coach before he has a chance to win. Charlie Weis had 10 wins with Willingham's team.
You can't possibly be suggesting that Tyrone Willingham is a good coach. One would have thought his horrific tenure at Washington would have removed all doubt.
ND's problem is simply that they've hired a series of bad coaches. By year three, you can pretty much tell what you've got in a coach; if he isn't working out by then, it's probably best to cut bait. Many programs have done so.
In 1998, Oklahoma fired John Blake after three seasons. They didn't turn into ND. They hired Bob Stoops and got much better.
In 2001, USC fired Paul Hackett after three seasons. They didn't turn into ND. They hired Pete Carroll and got much better.
In 2004, Florida fired Ron Zook midway through his third season. Once again, they didn't turn into ND. They hired Urban Meyer and got much better.
Interestingly enough, most of the top coaches in the country replaced guys who were fired.
I'd be willing to bet that
I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of coaches replace guys who were fired. It's sort of the nature of the profession.
Answer truly
Do you not believe that our situation, and that of Rodriguez are a little out of the ordinary given the issues with attrition, youth, D coordinator etc.?
You seem to have had a radical shift in thought recently, and I'm curious as to the reason why (other than the ever-aching Soul Dong).
not just "douchey" MGoBlog user, but now TRUSTED MGoBlog user
I've actually maintained all
I've actually maintained all along that after three seasons, it would be appropriate to evaluate RR. At this point, we've seen enough to draw judgment: he is more of an offensive coordinator than a head coach. He is a creative offensive mind, but unfortunately, is in over his head when it comes to defense and special teams and fields very mistake-prone teams. The massive attrition is not an argument in his favor; if anything, it's a sign of poor roster management. At West Virginia, the combination of very weak competition and the presence of a quality defensive coordinator helped to mask these deficiencies. At Michigan they are glaring.
I can envision a future under RR in which we're like a poor man's LSU, playing a lot of sloppy games and generally never seeming to be as good as the sum of our parts. Because we don't sit on a gold mine of talent, we'll lose more games than them - we'll have a lot of 7-5 and 8-4 seasons, always wondering what we could do if we'd just stop making mistakes.
There are several differences
between Notre Dame's situations and the current one. First I think most of those who are considering the possibility that RR should be fired, are looking at Jim Harbaugh as the successor. I know many of those who post on this blog have issues with Harbaugh, but at least for the benefit of considering the alleged "Notre Dame trap", let's assume he's the next coacch. Unlike the coaches at ND, Harbaugh has major ties to Michigan and, for the most part, will have the support of the entire Michigan community -- even RR's biggest defenders will be on board if (once?) the shift happens. Harbaugh has also had more success than Willingham before he got the ND job and given RR's record, he will -- rightly or wrongly -- be given a lot of rope. Finally the comparison to Weis taking over from Willingham in inapt if for no other reason than Weis was just a bad coach. Even Harbaugh's detractors are not likely to make that accusation.
mediocrity
If we were to keep the coach after going 7-5 with a senior-dominated team, that's tolerating mediocrity. This team played exactly the way it looked on paper, with the exception of D Robinson being better than expected. 7-5 was very close to the ceiling for this year's team given that our only DB at the junior or senior level was a position-switcher who never played before this season.
If we were to keep the coach
If we were to keep the coach after going 7-5 with a senior-dominated team, that's tolerating mediocrity.
That is an excellent, excellent point.
Ann Arbor is a classy broad.
"Get off my plane!" - Ricky Stanzi, Air Force One 2
I agree. OSU had 24 SENIORS
I agree. OSU had 24 SENIORS playing in their final home game!
Forget about the curveball Ricky. Give him the heater...
I didn't say he should go
but only if
Now even with those 24 seniors, isn't the mark of a good rivalry the phrase that you throw out the records when these teams play or any team can win. At no point over the last three years has those phrases actually meant anything. It was as sure a bet OSU was going to win, even to true diehards. Before, it didn't matter who was stronger, you always got a great and hard fought rivalry game. Did you think that was the case?
I think it was until the 85yd
I think it was until the 85yd kickoff return. i think that play pushed the momentum back firmly on OSU's side when we had it about even after our TD drive. With a more experienced team you can maybe weather the storm a bit more and still have a good chance to win. When you have sophomores who you depend on to make the best decisions in critical situations, or a group of true freshmen playing their hearts out but clearly knowing that people are pointing the finger squarely at them as to why the defense has been so bad, that momentum swing becomes monumental and insurmountable.
Forget about the curveball Ricky. Give him the heater...
It's simply people living in
It's simply people living in the past Michigan glory expecting too much out of a rebuilding project.
The issue is that, back in December 2007, we didn't expect a "rebuilding project" at all. Certainly not one that would involve us losing 75% of our Big Ten games over three years.
I did
I certainly expected a rebuilding project. I don't know how anyone could look at our roster at that time and think otherwise. There were a lot of curveballs; Mallett, Boren, Clemons etc, but rebuilding was a given for me. Especially on the offense, which is coming along pretty well IME.
not just "douchey" MGoBlog user, but now TRUSTED MGoBlog user
In the broadcast yesterday
they said that Ohio State was graduating 24 seniors. How many will we graduate?
Winning with upperclassmen...
Every 4 years or so is the plan for the second tier Big Ten programs, along with hopefully dodging a game or two against other competitive teams in the conference...I know there is a lot of youth on our team this year, but since when does Michigan need to to have all of this experience? Top programs re-load every year...
USC agrees.
USC agrees.
Right.
WoJo is a sports-writer. His last column was about the same thing. That makes two in a row. Hence, he's at it (writing the same thing as everyone else) again.
LSA, Class of 2009
How is being consistent repetitive?
He said if we get blown out, Rich should be out. We got blown out. What should he have written after the game? Nah, don't fire him, I changed my mind? At least he's sticking to what he said. Even if I don't agree with something, I respect that more than guys in the media (And elsewhere) who change their argument depending on what point they're trying to make.
"I love him, he's a great coach, he's a great mentor, he's a great friend. He's every single thing you want a college coach to be, and he does it flawlessly." -David Molk
Idiotic
Basing the future of your coach on a single game is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. You make a determination about your coach based on all the things Brandon has mentioned.
So this is how you picture Brandon looking at things. "Well I've been disappointed in things, but I love RR as our coach, I see the potential of the youth, I love how RR treats the kids, I think he has high morale fiber, he is an offensive genius...all right if Gibbons makes this fg RR stays if he misses he is gone"
Stupid
a single game???
time to wake up sleepy head.
Facts
We lost by larger margins to MSU, Iowa, and OSU this year than we did last year. It's beyond humiliating at this point. Anyone who says this is "progress"or "rebuilding" probably wasn't walking down State St. after the MSU game with me this year.
"All I've had today is, like, six gummy bears and some scotch"
I've come to the conclusion
I've come to the conclusion that you're a very dedicated/sophisticated troll.
Agree. why not
just flip a coin? Brandon said we have 5% of the information at his disposal. I believe he will decide what is best for the program.
Brian owns
this blog not my thoughts. That's some logic there my friend. Because the owner of the blog says so? He must be fired?
"Runnnn!!! get to da choppa"
I have read countless
I have read countless comments stating that what he says is gospel so that was for them. To Ziff, It may be idiotic to have the mind set of "win or you're fired" but he needs to show he can coach Michigan to a victory over a quality opponent.
Omnia mutantur nos et mutamur in illis.
hmmmm...
So I take it that the win over Connecticut (a BCS bowl team to the Orange in all likelihood) is now not a win over a "quality opponent". The same crew of gaudy monsters from Storrs I spent all of August hearing about.
Convenience sampling?
If the haters don't hate you then you're doing something wrong. - David Cone
actually... not
Michigan has to go 8-5 next year or Rodriguez should be cut loose. 7-6 might be okay if the bowl matchup is obviously bad.
Get used to it
Lots of people are going to be saying the same thing.
I won't demand RR be let go, I'm still hoping for a turnaround, but getting dominated 2 games in a row isn't exactly giving me a lot of confidence.
Wojo's at least been consistent
When RR was hired, Wojo said he was "intrigued" by the hire, and it may be the magic bullet to make Michigan a super power like USC & Florida (at the time), but he still held skepticism. He was complimentary during the early wins this year and before the Wisconsin game he basically said he (not some "inside source" like Sharp and Foster always claim, or a made up one like Henning) wanted to see improvement. I disagree with Wojo, and believe this can still work, and next year is the true evaluation year injuries / bad luck / everything included and can't be used as excuses, but I can see his point.
Folks, don't kill the messenger, especially when on balance, Wojo's been honest about his evaluation of the team over the past three years.
"So I come out of Ohio Stadium after we beat the Buckeyes, and right there on the hood of my friend's car, some one took a dump, in the shape of an 'O'. no shit. Oh, sorry, bad pun."
Lets face it. If the media
Lets face it. If the media perception and opinion factored into the decision making in the Athletic Department Rich would've been fired before his first game here. They didn't like him when he was hired.....they didn't like him over the past three years and they sure as hell don't like him now.
All that matters is if DB wants him here. End of story.
If he wants him here next
If he wants him here next year, shouldn't he make a statement to that effect rather than letting this play out in the media for the next five weeks?
Probably
But I keep hearing that he "wants to run it like a business". It may be detrimental to recruiting, may allow the media firestorm to continue, and may keep us all on edge, but DB's not going to make a decision (publicly) until after the bowl game.
Twitter // Recruiting Work// Email
Huh? What business benefits
Huh? What business benefits from a shit ton of bad PR?
I have no idea. But that's
I have no idea. But that's just what he keeps saying. He's waiting until the season's completely over to 'evaluate' and won't go either way until after the bowl game.
Twitter // Recruiting Work// Email
Really?
Do you really think that he's waiting until after the bowl game? Honestly? I don't think that the outcome of the bowl game will (or should) influence his decision. He has enough info to make a decision now (the players will still be a year older next season regardless of the outcome of the bowl game).
It seems to me like DB is playing some sort of game. It's fine to evaluate basketball, volleyball or hockey after the season. Football is a different monster with this five week gap. It would seem to me that he's making his plans behind the scenes, not really waiting for the outcome of a bowl game.
I realize that this is strictly hypothectical, but maybe, just maybe, he's going to let Harbaugh's season play out so he doesn't lose the coach by screwing up a BCS game like Martin did with Les Miles a few years ago.
last i checked
a business doesn't bend its own procedures and measures simply because the press demands it. how much respect would Brandon command if he stated he would make his decision at the end of the year and then be forced into making a comment well before that? then the press learns they can start/discuss any rumor and force the department's hand.
It's not the media
There's no need to shoot the messenger. It's not the "press" that is forcing DB's hand; it's the performance on the field. If we won a game against MSU or OSU, then there is a more difficult decision. If we were competitive in our five losses, then there is a more difficult decision. But...after barely escaping Illinois and Purdue, we were embarrassed by Wisc and OSU (who didn't even throw the ball in the 4th). The way we lost those games is the only thing forcing DB's hand.
MSU, OSU, and Wisc are ALL 1
MSU, OSU, and Wisc are ALL 1 loss teams and if i recall correctly, they are all ranked in the top 10 in the BCS. These are very good football teams that we had some success moving the ball on. If our team was not dominated by underclassmen or players who have switched positions, especially on defense, we stand a legit chance of winning those games. I'm not saying you want to hang your hat on being close but the reality is we have been beat by teams that were older more experienced and more consistent with the talent available to them. The only way to combat that is to do the same thing. build depth and have as many experienced talented upperclassmen as possible. If you think RR is not aware of that and is not trying to build for both immediate success and future success you are wrong.
Forget about the curveball Ricky. Give him the heater...
Close?
I'm not saying you want to hang your hat on being close but...
What game was close? The 20 point loss to Wisc? The 17 point loss to MSU? The 30 point loss to OSU? The "reality" is that excuses don't fly three years into the coach's tenure and we are not "close" to being the team you think we are.
And if we had lost to Oregon, Auburn and Boise State
would you feel differently? Forget that the names are OSU, MSU and Wisconsin -- they are all top 10 teams. You didn't really expect to beat any top 10 teams this year, did you? If you did, your expectations for improvement were beyond unrealistic.
Why is the notion that Rich should be fired so unbelievable? If he doesn't win the bowl game he should be gone. Even the "exalted leader" thinks so.
http://mgoblog.com/content/when-can-we-fire-guy
Omnia mutantur nos et mutamur in illis.