Winning, graduating players, doing it the right way. What say you?
Brian just posted the poll given to Iowa fans regarding what was important to them; Winning, Graduating Players, or Doing it the right way, ranking each from one to ten. Brian helpfully explained the answer was 10 for each. How about we each get 30 total points to assign to what's important. I'll go Winning 7, Graduating players 3, Doing it the right way 20.
Clearly the graduating and right way catagories overlap quite a bit and the circumstances under which players do or don't graduate are important. I'm guessing Sadeto and Everyone Murders are pretty close to my numbers. I'm guessing Tater is not.
The mentioned choices are not mutually exclusive. All may be pursued with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind.
I think Iowa's survey was a subtle way of asking fans if they want Ferentz who boasts about graduation rates and doing it the right way or to fire him so they can get a coach that has the potential to win more.
If not for the still ridiculous buyout which Iowa seems to be patiently allowing to dissipate to a fiscally manageable level, it seems like an increasing number of Iowa fans think that giving Kirk Ferentz his walking papers - his gold inlay walking papers - IS doing it the right way.
The SEC way of life.
Well you can make a convincing argument that if your players are graduating then they are wasting time that would otherwise be used in the weight room, film room, practice fields, etc...
/s
Thanks for your input, Mr Saban.
Tell that o Bo, Woody.
Times have changed. Michigan didn't understand this basic concept until Hackett and Harbaugh came on.
I'm pretty sure neither Hackett nor Harbaugh would appreciate the "compliment" of contrasting their methods with Bo's.
We all marveled over how DB trashed 40 years of goodwill in such a short time. That goodwill was built by winning the right way. If that is no longer possible then what's the point? May as well turn to the NFL where the play is better.
Hackett nor Harbaugh are stupid enough to think they can win the same way Bo did.
If NCs are all you care about, then you are backing the wrong team. Find one that wins NCs at all costs, and enjoy your "fandom."
It must work now. Jeez, thank god not everyone thinks this way. Our computers would still take up entire rooms.
We've been "doing it the right way" for the past 7 years. I'll gladly take winning. Thankfully, I think Harbaugh can succeed immensely at both.
I think that we've been doing it the wrong way, at least in football. Fergodsakes, look at the results.
The point is that these are not mutually-exclusive goals.* If you do things the right way, winning and graduating players tag along for the ride. Programs that "do things the right way" teach the student athletes how to balance their school and sports commitments. They establish mentorship programs. They recruit carefully, and relay expectations in a clear manner. They are demanding of student athletes, but also provide them the necessary support.
Some are really succesful at this, while others - not so much. And a lot of it is accomplished at the intake end of things. If you recruit excellent athletes who are truly motivated to succeed in the classrom, all ends well. If you recruity excellent athletes who "ain't come to play school" it may or may not end well.
*I understand this is the thrust of your comment, Stringer Bell.
"Doing things the right way" includes winning football games, and being a great coach who develops players. Hoke failed to win football games, and failed to develop football players. Graduating players is important, but that was the only area were Hoke shined.
I think Hoke is likeable, and think he did his best. But doing things the right way is inconsistent with bumbling through Morris's concussion, Gibbons's sexual assault charges, Lewan's issues, etc. If the coach does things the right way, he establishes a culture of success on and off the field, without cutting corners.
Now how do I get off this soapbox?
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so your a squeaky clean program and everyone graduates... but you're almost irrelevant in the college football landscape. Welcome to the Ivy League.
Somebody wins the Ivy League every year, and they're probably pretty damn happy about it.
I don't think any of those Ivy league schools are signing $150 million dollar deals with Nike anytime soon. And if you think that doesn't matter.. you're just being naive.
I never said it doesn't matter - I think you're missing my point. Your use of the word "relevant" is important - it's all relevant to what your school is trying to do and what your expectations are. The Ivy League is extremely relevant in the world they live in - one where there are no athletic scholarships and athletes are held to very high standards measured directly against the academic standards of their fellow students (there is a formal metric, actually, to maintaining academic eligibility of the individual and of the team within the Ivy). That's their world, it's very relevant for them.
You can see Michigan totally within the world of big time D1 college sports and it's W/L record there, and that's fine, it's fun and Michigan generally does very well outside of the past 7 years of football. Certainly does very well in dollars and cents. I choose to view Michigan a bit differently, in a world where very few world-class universities struggle to maintain standards and excellence while navigating the money machine of D1 sports participation. Hopefully some very smart and competent people like Schlissel and Hackett can succeed there. But I think we have very different ideas of what "relevance" means for the UM, and that's fine, we're part of a pretty broad and diverse fan base.
Disagree. I think the program is about the university, which is about the students. You want winning at all costs, there are plenty of teams for you to root for.
I'd rather see losing than cheating or failing the players.
so you think the students are going to vote in favor of "graduating players and the right way" over winning? Good luck with that... I know when I was in college the moral high ground was of the ultimate importance.
When I attended Michigan the overwhelming majority of students took as a simple matter of fact that MIchigan ran a clean program, and that "fact" was a source of great pride. A clean program was expected.
There was a great deal of strife on campus back then which brought a deep and abiding distrust on the part of many students toward the administration of the University. But one clear exception was the football program (and basketball, hockey, and other popular sports). Whether faculty or student, pretty much everyone set differences aside on Saturday to cheer for the team.
I wouldn't refer to it as a "moral high ground" because we didn't see it that way. An unclean program would tarnish an ideal that we all held dear. We understood that other program's might be dirty, but ours wasn't and we intended to ensure that it stayed that way forever.
The right way includes graduating players. Other than his humorous punting decisions I don't really care what Ferentz does, but Harbaugh's job description includes both at a very high level.
Well, you could win and do it the right way and still lose a lot of players early to the NFL, so there is some non-overlap between graduating and doing things the right way, but other than that quibble I agree with you. Great programs don't need to cheat to win.
Winning is all that matters, but there needs to be some element of doing it right and graduating players so here are my numbers:
Winning: 20
Doing it right: 5
Graduating Players: 5
The assumption here is that winning and doing it the right way (which includes graduating players who are academically deserving of graduation) are somehow opposed. In my view this assumption is false. As I've said else where, I want Michigan to run an honorable program that allows students on a sports scholarship to pursue their academic goals, treats academic eligiblilty appropriately, and, under those constraints, pushes, trains, motivates, (pick your favorite terms) each athlete achieve the highest level of athletic performance they and their team can. I fully expect that achieving this will result in conference and national championships.
The pool of potential players who fit this model is smaller. We'll be competing for top athletes who have solid academic performance and strong character. By definition all the other top programs will want these students too. Great coaches pull in great athletes. As long as Michigan has great coaches the program will get enough of that limited group of athletes to win.
Cheating to out score oponents does not produce a "win". If that was the tradition and history of Michigan sports, I'd have no interest in it. None. Nada.
mentioned the overlap between right way and graduating at the outset. I only used both because they were in the Iowa survey.Other than that I (obvoiusly) agree with everything you say.
All of them? I mean, I get that winning sometimes makes parts of the other two difficult to fulfill, but I'd like to live in a world where I assume that college athletes are treated as human beings and not as cattle and everyone at least tries to follow the rules. I'm not going to expect that every player can cut it in the classroom or will graduate with a useful degree or that some of them would leave early and make millions of dollars instead, but as long as an athlete is enrolled at UM, I'd hope the school and program would work toward them learning like every other student.
While, I want to do all 3. It seems like there's a contingent of fans who don't really care about winning based on what they post on here about how Michigan is different than other power programs. For example, there's a contingent of people who thinks we shouldn't build waterfalls in Schembechler or a better weight room which puts us in a disadvantage when recruiting against schools with better football facilities like Alabama or Ohio State.
Actually, you are the first in the thread to mention "waterfalls" and "better weight room."
Strawman much?
I'm just giving an example of things that help you win that aren't against the rules like Nike, or paying a coach like Harbaugh a huge sum of money. What does Alabama or Ohio State do that we don't do right now? Nobody's saying that we should do everything they do like oversigning etc. The point is that we should attempt to win at the highest level. Northwestern or Vanderbit don't pay coaches 6 million a year to coach them from the NFL. They don't spend millions on facilities etc. because they don't care about winning like others do. I went to Michigan because we have a good school and football program and not just the good school.
I have no idea what your argument is. Ohio State didn't win the national championship because they had the best waterfalls or weight room. Michigan pays its coaches a lot, and has facilities as good as anyone. I've never seen anyone argue that Michigan shouldn't, so it seems to me that you are arguing against a strawman.
Why you went to Michigan isn't relevant.
Well as short as 15 years ago we were as good as anybody nationally. I'm not naive enough to believe we did everything 100 percent as a Harvard football or Northwestern football would but we won big and didn't have any big scandals and we didn't throw out our integrity like FSU. That's my ideal Michigan. I'm not satisfied letting Ohio State win the next 10 against us because we just don't play football that way and we should be more like the university of Chicago.
There are a lot of coaches who get fired every year who graduate a ton of players and do things the 'right way'. So the answer is pretty self evident. If you dont have winning the rest doesnt matter. If Beilein didnt turn things around in year 4 he'd have been kicked to the curb and we would have lost a great man. I am sure Amaker was a great man. Hoke from all indications is a solid human being etc.
Very well said.
John Wooden, the greatest coach in college basketball history said this:
"I tried to get across, too, that -- my opponents will tell you -- you never heard me mention winning. Never mention winning."
Winning and graduating players are a result of doing it the right way:
You are right; that was a very crooked program. He just got away with it because of a lack of scrutiny.