Warde Announcement and Level I vs Level II: Request for Clarification
I realize that there has already been quite a bit of discussion on the Harbaugh 3 game suspension, but I am struggling to understand what the “voluntary suspension” is for. Here is a quote from CBS:
Amid his saga with the NCAA, Michigan coach Jim Harbaugh will step away from the sidelines for a portion of the Wolverines' 2023 season after all. Despite recent expectations that Harbaugh would coach the entire season with his NCAA case not yet resolved, Michigan has instead imposed a three-game suspension for Harbaugh to start the season as punishment for a Level I violation, the school announced Monday. [NB Italics are mine].
"While the ongoing NCAA matter continues through the NCAA process, today's announcement is our way of addressing mistakes that our department has agreed to in an attempt to further that process," Michigan athletic director Warde Manuel said in a statement. "We will continue to support coach Harbaugh, his staff, and our outstanding student-athletes. Per the NCAA's guidelines, we cannot comment further until the matter is resolved."
Discussed extensively already on the Blog and elsewhere is that Harbaugh is unlikely to ever admit to lying. So my question: How can the athletic department issue an official statement containing a reference to a Level I violation when Harbaugh flatly denies lying about the Level 2 incidents?
August 22nd, 2023 at 2:48 PM ^
Because the AD and Harbaugh aren't on the same page?
August 22nd, 2023 at 3:54 PM ^
Fire Warde
August 22nd, 2023 at 2:50 PM ^
Because it's an acknowledgment that Harbaugh committed a Level 1 violation. You don't essentially plead guilty to a violation that never happened.
August 22nd, 2023 at 2:55 PM ^
People in fact do very regularly plead guilty to crimes that they never committed.
August 22nd, 2023 at 3:09 PM ^
Does the NCAA accept Alford Pleas? I watch crime documentaries...
August 22nd, 2023 at 3:20 PM ^
This isn't a court of law, Thank God
August 22nd, 2023 at 4:28 PM ^
It would actually be better for Michigan in this case if it WERE taken to a court of law. It would be messy, which I’d assume UM lawyers would advise they avoid, but UM would be more likely to come out on top
August 22nd, 2023 at 8:09 PM ^
Ncaa would never do it. Precisely why they back off of southern schools.
August 22nd, 2023 at 9:24 PM ^
NCAA would never do it because they lose almost all of their leverage and legal standing. Schools would never do it because it’s a long, messy process that ultimately has very little upside.
August 22nd, 2023 at 3:10 PM ^
It’s not an acknowledgment or an admission of guilt at all. The NCAA is the prosecutor, the judge, the jury, and the executioner in all of their cases. The NCAA is going to punish regardless of the ”facts.” Once the NCAA decides you’re guilty, it doesn’t matter if you are guilty or not. And it’s sometimes better to just play along.
Also, there’s a long list of instances where people plead guilty to crimes they didn’t commit in exchange for lesser sentences in cases that aren’t going to end in their favor.
August 22nd, 2023 at 3:31 PM ^
There is no specific admission of guilt.
Harbaugh definitely bought off on the punishment and the wording
They decided to not kick the entire can to next year and then let the NCAA impose their unilateral will, which would be a stupid strategy
Instead they took a three game punishment, which limits this year to completely insignificant games, and establishes a negotiating position starting at 3 which is less than the 4 games.
In theory, next year the NCAA has far less leverage for more punishment and any new punishment in terms of games will have a far less impact since we’ve already taken 3 and any new games would likely also be at the less impactful beginning of the season.
Worse case, if they kicked the entire can, you can imagine a coach ban for 5-6 games next year which could kill the season.
I would guess, Michigan’s lawyers are steering Warde and Jim away from a cage match.
Finally, they are going to mention level 1 violations in this self ban. If they didn’t, the NCAA could come back and say the 3 games were only for level 2 and they would have much more wind in their sales when they counter next year
August 22nd, 2023 at 3:54 PM ^
Unfortunately, if the NCAA decides 3 is not sufficient and they add the additional 3 they want, our second game next year is against Texas. That would be a huge loss for that specific game. Let's hope the NCAA gets tired of dealing with this and accepts the 3 games and moves on.
August 22nd, 2023 at 9:39 PM ^
I’m not a lawyer, but a part of my job involves reviewing police reports and court documents. The one thing I’ve found that everyone seems to have in common, is the fact that people are over-charged in relation to the crime/event. Then they plead to a lesser charge and feel like they’ve won. -Although I can’t imagine that Harbaugh or anyone familiar with the case can feel like he walked away a winner with a three game suspension.
Does Harbaugh still get paid his full salary or is it like the NFL where players don’t get their game checks while suspended? Just curious.
August 22nd, 2023 at 11:05 PM ^
I would think they would state suspended without pay. That's a big detail. And if they did, I doubt JH would accept that as an acceptable punishment.
August 22nd, 2023 at 2:53 PM ^
Oh good another thread on Warde so I get another chance to post what a spineless, useless, weak, cowardly gasbag I think he is.
If the dude had any guts at all he would've told the NCAA to fuck right off and listed every one of the other actual major violations that have occurred recently where they did absolutely nothing at all. And yes, I'm aware that we're "not allowed to comment during an ongoing investigation."
Guess what? NEITHER ARE THEY AND THEY DID IT ANYWAYS. So Warde could end his presser with the statement that yes, he knows what he's doing isnt technically allowed but he thought that given that the NCAA did it first all bets were off on that subject.
If he did that it would be the first time he took a public stand in defense of Harbaugh or Michigan athletics as a whole.
August 22nd, 2023 at 3:20 PM ^
At a previous job I had in "big corporate", my boss once said "our roles boil down to this: the machine makes $$$, so above all, don't risk that, keep the machine running."
I'm not there anymore - I got forced out after a situation (long story, I may have shared it here once) where I know I made a morally correct stand, but a stand that risked the $$$-printing aspect of the machine.
It is what it is. I tend to agree with you as regards what Warde should do, given the NCAA has decided they want to play in the mud on this one. But Warde has a boss too, and is ultimately protecting the Michigan Sports Inc. "machine" and his own butt.
August 22nd, 2023 at 3:54 PM ^
I'm not there anymore - I got forced out after a situation (long story, I may have shared it here once) where I know I made a morally correct stand, but a stand that risked the $$$-printing aspect of the machine.
Hook, line, and sinker. Lay it on us if you're willing
August 22nd, 2023 at 3:52 PM ^
I believe you are in sales. How many times have you walked into a customer who asked for or complained about something ridiculous and told them to "fuck right off" on behalf of your company?
If you really want Warde to act like a child, I believe you have been living in Ohio far too long.
August 22nd, 2023 at 4:08 PM ^
Yes, I'm in sales (thanks for remembering). But last time I checked the NCAA wasn't a customer of Michigan's. They are a quasi-governing body that every other institution (except us) has figured out is a paper tiger with no real bite. There only power is the threat of doing something and punishment must be agreed upon and accepted by the institution getting it.
I dont want Warde to act like a child. I actually want him to act like a man, like the ADs at Arizona, LSU, Texas, Georgia, Alabama, Iowa, Kansas, North Carolina and God knows how many other schools that committed actual, real violations did and tell them to fuck right off.
August 22nd, 2023 at 5:02 PM ^
It's great theater & bravado, but that isn't how any of this actually works.
The NCAA has no investigative authority and is basically reduced to kindly asking for documents and the ability to interview people.
Most schools will not oppose an investigation, but may not fully cooperate on every aspect. The NCAA can't do anything about that.
The NCAA does get to decide the punishment and has the means to enforce them. Every game, except for the CFP, is an NCAA sanctioned event so if a school decides to hire a coach with a show cause, the NCAA can prevent them from participating in a game. What AD wants to be the one who prevented their school from competing thus messing up their own team's season and every other school that was on the schedule?
Ultimately, the NCAA can find some of what went wrong with proof, but often times, doesn't get the full details. The Michigan basketball situation was different because the FBI provided the evidence. Same with LSU, where, I think it is important to recognize, Will Wade is no longer the coach.
So all these other schools people claim said FU to the NCAA, didn't really do that.
They partially supported the investigation. They developed their own self-imposed sanctions based on private correspondence with the NCAA. They waited to see if the NCAA would impose additional sanctions, and when the NCAA does, they accept them.
Tennessee didn't fight back against the sanctions. They had a politician threaten legal action, and that may have influenced the NCAA going after the money instead of other things.
The only weird, sigh, yes there had to be one, thing Michigan did was to let this all play out publicly instead of privately with the NCAA. Then again, Michigan & Harbaugh have the court of public opinion backing them now, so maybe it was well played by Michigan.
Michigan knows the NCAA has proof of the basic violations but doesn't have evidence of Harbaugh lying. The three games will suffice and the NCAA will move on. There will not be additional sanctions next year because the NCAA can't prove it.
August 22nd, 2023 at 6:37 PM ^
The NCAA does get to decide the punishment and has the means to enforce them. Every game, except for the CFP, is an NCAA sanctioned event so if a school decides to hire a coach with a show cause, the NCAA can prevent them from participating in a game
Is this true? Has this ever happened? I have a hard time believing the NCAA would have the power to cancel a Michigan football game.
This is why I think Michigan should have just completely ignored the NCAA
August 22nd, 2023 at 7:24 PM ^
All member schools of the NCAA are required to follow the rules which a representation of the schools and student athletes vote to put into place.
One such rule is that student athletes have to register with the NCAA and meet eligibility requirements to compete in college athletic events.
So, if Michigan decided to field a football team full of in-eligible players, the NCAA could prevent Michigan from participating because Michigan has agreed to be bound by these rules as an NCAA member institution.
August 24th, 2023 at 10:21 AM ^
It's not great theater. It's childish and disingenuous. It's an attempt to place blame somewhere it doesn't belong because it's more comfortable than reality.
August 22nd, 2023 at 6:19 PM ^
yes, by all means, let’s run our athletic department more like…(checks notes)…arizona, lsu, and jesus christ i’m bored with this idiotic opinion yet again.
get a new schtick, i’m begging you.
August 22nd, 2023 at 5:04 PM ^
If Warde wanted to throw some shade (which certainly doesn't seem to be a part of his arsenal) he could admit to once having driven 42 on a road with a 40mph speed limit and, a result, he will not be under consideration for coaching any of the 3 games that Harbaugh will miss.
August 22nd, 2023 at 2:54 PM ^
...today's announcement is our way of addressing mistakes that our department has agreed to in an attempt to further that process,"
What does "mistakes that our department has agreed to" even mean? Is this basically an admission of guilt (mistake = lie)?
August 22nd, 2023 at 2:58 PM ^
It sounds like Harbaugh will not admit to them so the athletic department is trying to do it for him.
Bold strategy. Let's see if it pays off for them.
August 22nd, 2023 at 3:10 PM ^
It's confusingly phrased, but I think "that we agreed to" modifies "our way of addressing", not "mistakes."
In other words, today's announcement is the acceptable way they chose to address mistakes.
August 22nd, 2023 at 4:01 PM ^
My understanding is there are two separate issues.
1) There were recruiting violations more than just the cheeseburger thing. No matter how ridiculous, dumb or petty...there were officially violations.
2) The supposed lying on Jim's part, which would also be a violation.
I believe the statement quoted is recognizing and accepting Michigan was responsible for #1. I do not think it is accepting of #2.
I believe this has been the heart of the issue for Harbaugh as well as the AD. The NCAA wants Michigan to be punished for supposedly lying and Michigan is saying, "FU! If you want us to account for our violations, fine, but we are not going to accept your claim & punishment of Jim lying".
August 22nd, 2023 at 4:35 PM ^
That's possible. But my understanding is that #1 are all Level II violations that rarely result in a suspension. UM would basically be self-imposing a Level I punishment for an admitted Level II violation.
August 22nd, 2023 at 5:08 PM ^
This is the "political game" part of it.
Michigan admits to level II and self-imposes the three game ban. Michigan still gets to sit on the moral high ground.
The NCAA wants their pound of flesh because they felt they were lied to. Very petty, and ridiculous, but I dare say the shoe fits.
So, Michigan takes the three game suspension for Level II, while the NCAA feels it got admittance of the lying, even though Michigan didn't actually do that, the world keeps spinning and much time was wasted on all that.
August 22nd, 2023 at 8:40 PM ^
Absolutely pathetic.
Don't mean to beat a dead horse, but wtf is self-imposing to three game is going to resolve when NCAA clearly declined four. And why can't Warde for once in his tenure support Harbaugh, and tell those inept bastards to shove it and prove it? Harbaugh is a man of principle and clearly took a firm stance on denying any wrongdoing. Why can't you Warde? You spineless fuck. Other programs are getting away with murders, and here we are bending to NCAA for supposedly paying for a burger and lying during the Covid year? Shame on you NCAA . And you too Warde. Both should be gone.
August 22nd, 2023 at 9:52 PM ^
Warde Derangement Syndrome is a serious illness. Seek treatment.
Manual is playing chess while the NCAA plays checkers. Contrary to the quote in the OP, Michigan did not concede that there was a Level 1 violation. Since at least 2 of the 3 Level 2 violations were self-reported, your perception that Harbaugh "clearly took a firm stance on denying any wrongdoing" is obviously just a symptom of your raging WDS.
By imposing a "penalty" (not penalty) more severe than the NCAA would impose for three Level 2 violations, Michigan has seized the moral high ground. The NCAA will have a hard time justifying any further punishment, and any attempt to come back with "but Level 1 violation" is going to be under intense scrutiny from the press and the lawyers.
Seriously, though, there are probably meds to treat that WDS. See your doctor.
August 22nd, 2023 at 10:38 PM ^
Laughable. Great, Warde playing "chess while NCAA plays checkers" for supposedly paying for a burger and lying, while other programs shoving it up to NCAA without any consequences for much more serious violations. Well played, at least we maintained "the moral high ground," while realization of pending further penalty will make us look foolish. Makes sense.
August 22nd, 2023 at 10:42 PM ^
I will, however, take up on that offer though. I like meds.
August 24th, 2023 at 10:31 AM ^
So we should believe Harbaugh because he is a "man of principle"? LOL
I'm hoping you're not a judge? If you ever get arrested or accused of a crime, try calling your lawyer a spineless fuck when he refuses to tell the cops to fuck off. LOL Geez!
August 22nd, 2023 at 2:55 PM ^
I'm not a lawyer, but I see the strategy as basically pleading "no contest."
"We support Harbaugh, we want him as our coach for 2023 and beyond, we plan on signing him to an extension in the near future, we recognize that the NCAA may still rule that Harbaugh needs to be suspended for 4 games for a level 1 violation, so we will take three of those games this year." (Rutgers will have a defense and may not be a cakewalk, plus Harbaugh gets a game back before Nebraska, and then Harbaugh may miss the Fresno State game next year.)
That's basically covering all the bases in the best way possible. We all know idiots who support other teams and will complain that Michigan is tainted and is getting away with a slap on the wrist (which is likely B.S.), but it gives us the best chance to compete for a national championship this year and keep Harbaugh for years to come.
I'm a big supporter of JH and I'd like to remind everyone of the darkness that shrouded the fading years of Carr and the abysmal performances of Rodriguez and Hoke. I still hold on to the hope that he will sign an extension and finish his career as our head coach.
August 22nd, 2023 at 2:57 PM ^
Agree with this except for the part about being scared of Rutgers.
August 22nd, 2023 at 3:18 PM ^
Thank you for that. It's basically a no-contest plea and the biggest thing is there is no admission of guilt by anyone. He gets to serve the suspension on his terms. Harb gets to conduct practices and everything except being on the sideline. Essentially we avoid them telling us what the suspension looks like. This is a tactically the smart play. Warde eluded to UM considering it a level 1, so that's what it is until you hear otherwise. Some of ya'll need to chill and let this thing go away.
August 22nd, 2023 at 3:10 PM ^
Tangential --- but NCAA violation levels and Defcon levels are so counter-intuitive to me.
Level 1 should be least serious, not most serious.
August 22nd, 2023 at 3:30 PM ^
This is about Warde being able to walk around like the big man on campus featuring a smug countenance which declares that he is a man of integrity who does not answer to the football coach. As he sits with his pipe and slippers he is often heard to say, "We must be above the appearance of impropriety." A man for the ages, indeed.
August 22nd, 2023 at 5:39 PM ^
But he also stands a much better chance of retaining said football coach. Any additional game suspensions for Harbaugh that would happen in 2024 are likely to be 1-3 games (if at all), which means Harbaugh would have less incentive to leave that if a 4-6 game suspension were all next year. Taking some of the punishment in advance is likely to take much of the ire and vindictiveness out of the NCAA, and make them more likely to go easy or even drop the rest of the case.
This was a good, smart move by Warde Manuel, in my opinion.
August 23rd, 2023 at 3:08 AM ^
Exchange pipe and slippers with cigarettes and flip flops and you may be on to something.
How UM hires an AD from UConn and thinks he’s ready for the big time is about as on brand as hiring Brady Hoke from SDSU.
August 22nd, 2023 at 3:32 PM ^
When I search the linked article, I do not see a reference to an admitted Level 1 violation, and the university's statement did not admit one. I'm not sure where the confusion is, but I don't think Michigan or Harbaugh are admitting to a Level 1 violation. In fact, it appears from reports since yesterday that the university is prepared to fight the NCAA on that issue. Perhaps an earlier version of this article got that wrong?
August 22nd, 2023 at 3:48 PM ^
Here is the link to the actual article, the link in the OP is not where the quotes came from.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/michigans-jim-harbaugh-to-serve-self-imposed-suspension-as-ncaa-case-seeks-resolution/
August 22nd, 2023 at 7:21 PM ^
This is the link to the article referenced in my OP: https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/michigans-jim-harbaugh-to-serve-self-imposed-suspension-as-ncaa-case-seeks-resolution/amp/
There are some differences in some of the language used. After reading the various posts, my impression is that CBS must have made some stuff up.
August 22nd, 2023 at 6:53 PM ^
From what I can tell, I think you are correct. This appears to be the full (?) statement from Manuel:
"While the ongoing NCAA matter continues through the NCAA process, today's announcement is our way of addressing mistakes that our department has agreed to in an attempt to further that process. We will continue to support coach Harbaugh, his staff, and our outstanding student-athletes. Per the NCAA's guidelines, we cannot comment further until the matter is resolved."
The statement about the 3-game suspension being about a Level I violation comes from the article, not the AD.
August 24th, 2023 at 12:21 PM ^
Yep -- this is almost certainly a reporting error by CBS. It would seem that a Level I violation is exactly what the University is fighting rather than admitting.
August 22nd, 2023 at 3:45 PM ^
I don't care enough to do the research on the complete statements but....
The first paragraph in your excerpt that mentions "Level 1" is reporting / editorializing by CBS. There is nothing in paragraph two -- the quote from UofM -- that mentions anything specific - particularly the type of violation(s).
Essentially U of M is saying - we know the NCAA isn't going to settle for nothing so we wish to proactively punish ourselves in a manner and timeline the is convenient to us. Let us know when you figure something out and we will deduct these 3 games from whatever you come up with.