USC-ND Rivalry Destroyed Pac12?
The BigTen Network mentioned this yesterday:
The BigTen and Pac12 had an agreement in place to have a BigTen-Pac12 Football Challenge like the old BigTen-ACC Basketball Challenge. With roughly the top BigTen teams facing off against the top Pac12 teams and so forth down to the bottom feeders facing off against each other it would have for sure drawn a lot of interest and given the Pac12 more TV interest. A lack of TV interest has been the Pac12's downfall.
It was the Pac12 that broke the agreement making the BigTen-Pac12 Football Challenge never happen, because USC thought it was too much to have 9 conference games, a ND rivalry, and then a top BigTen team to face off against every year.
There could be some future TV deal pressure for the BigTen to have 10 conference games with such a large conference and so many possible big ticket match ups, no Notre Dame rivalries or other rivalries should stand in the way.
Yes.
I pitched this last year when USC announced their move.
If Notre Dame doesn't want to join a conference, then they don't need to get the benefit of playing the best teams in our conference. We have plenty of teams in our conference to play.
We should use that game as leverage against ND, and if they don't like it, they can formalize joining an ACC without Clemson and FSU.
How about we ignore those self absorbed pricks from south bend completely.
You summarized my thoughts, much more succinctly
“To Hell with Notre Dame”
…fixed it for you
Nailed it - though I truly enjoyed the "self absorbed pricks" as a perfect description for that pathetic fanbase.
I enjoy playing against ND since we normally beat them and they can hardly handle it. I despise either us or the conference giving them special treatment at all. They want to play us regularly in fb, hockey and other sports - fine, join as an equal member in all sports. If not, you can still play non-con as we can fit you into our schedules.
If they don't like it, to hell with them.
Since the series with ND resumed in 1978, I believe we won 16, lost 16 and tied once. I don't know how that means we normally beat them. I remember quite a few losses that were hard to take but I had a great time in the rain in 2019 even if I couldn't find anyone to go with me.
I think they dropped us for money and we wanted to keep the series continue for the same reason.
If they want in I'd take them. If they want special treatment, I'd tell them no unless we can get some special treatment for ourselves.
Funny you bring up the records since I was just looking over that info for some the of *coaching* records.
In summary: the Michigan-Notre Dame rivalry is an oddball for both programs.
- Since 1887 we've played 44 times (twice in 1888)
- Neither team had coaches in this rivalry until 1898
- Since then, Michigan has had 10 head coaches calling those games while ND has had 14.
- Of Michigan's 10 head coaches in those games, only 1 has a losing record against ND (Bo Schembechler, 4-6-0), while 5 have had winning records against them (the last being Rich Rodriguez).
- Of ND's 14 head coaches, 9 have had losing records (the last being Brian Kelly) while 4 have had winning records (the last being Tyrone Willingham).
- In terms of winning % (for coaches who participated in more than two games in the series), Fielding Yost & Rich Rodriguez are tied for Michigan at 2-1 while Dan Devine & Tyrone Willingham are tied for ND at 2-1.
- Lloyd Carr (5-4-0) & Lou Holtz (5-3-1) have the most wins for each team.
- Notre Dame was on its 6th coach in the series when it finally won a game. Dan Devine was the first ND coach to win more than one game against us in 1980.
- Bo has the most games of any coach in this series (10), with Holtz & Carr next (9).
To your point about beating them more often than not, if you look at results since 1990 we are up 13-10. Recency bias sure, but if the SEC can use it justify their causes so can we.
***AND... I had forgotten that ND had their win from 2012 vacated officially. Some may ignore that, but on the books that win no longer counts. That makes:
- Record since 1990 as 13-9 in our favor
- Brady Hoke with winning record of 2-1-0, bringing our total to 6 coaches with winning records in the series.
- Brian Kelly is still an ass.
This 100% and if those arrogant a-holes from South Bend won't join a conference, just don't schedule them. I want to stomp MSU and OSU every year but at least I have a little (very little) respect for them. Phuck those "better than thou" pricks from South Bend who just think they're better than everyone else
August 5th, 2023 at 10:31 AM ^
I posted yesterday about the (IMO) odd idea that Notre Dame considers Stanford a key partner / rivalry. I think that's cute and aspirational of them. For some reason the idea seems to have traction in the sports universe.
August 5th, 2023 at 12:57 PM ^
That’s because ND people delude themselves into thinking the school is on a par academically with Stanford, which everyone else knows is laughable.
And it's a "rivalry" that they can win regularly.
All B1G schools should’ve stopped playing Notre Dame last time they turned down joining. Now the conference should definitely turn their back on them unless they want to join.
August 5th, 2023 at 10:08 AM ^
Sounds more like USC was afraid of a little extra competition, rather than that the rivalry destroyed something. Back in the days of Pete Carroll that wouldn't have stood. He'd go anywhere and play anyone. Most deliciously went into the Shoe with a true-freshman QB and handed Tre$$el his ass.
August 5th, 2023 at 11:46 AM ^
I hate myself for thinking this, but I believe the B1G is playing the long game and will likely get to 24. 4 Pods of 6 or Vice versa. (read between the lines of the B1G coaches after the recent meetings comparing themselves to the NFL model) I also think ND is complicit in the plan.
ND needs to declare independence but also sees the writing on the wall. They are also stuck in their contract with the ACC so it is complicated.
ND declares they need a broadcast partner on NBC to bring more viewership and increase their contract value. B1G to the rescue. NBC TV executive now B1G commish. 4 BIG teams on ND schedule in 2026, plus USC…
FSU and Clemson so far on the rumor mill with Duke and NC not far behind.
I anticipate something along the lines of ND, Stanford, FSU, Clemson, Duke and NC to finish the national B1G footprint, eliminate the teeth of the ACC GoR, and create strong regional alliances with the new conference footprint.
The path there is challenging. But consider Fox and NBC want to weaken ESPN and ABC as well and the tea leaves look clearer with each move.
I could obviously be wrong (haven’t been on counterstrike in a while) but it just makes too much sense to me.
TL;DR - to hell with Notre Dame!
August 5th, 2023 at 12:21 PM ^
Finally, perhaps, money will trump bad tradition. May the USC-Notre Dame rivalry, great as it is, be terminated until Notre Dame gets off its high horse and kindly begs the B1G to let it join, with the same deal Washington and Oregon get at best.
Until then, they can deal with telling NBC their marquee game is against Navy, and the rest will be against DII schools, or whatever they are appropriately called now.
I could pontificate further, but... Bo was right about ND.
Leverage for what? Like i dont understand this obsession with a team that isn't in our conference. Why care who nd plays or doesn't play?
"Like i dont understand this obsession with a team that isn't in our conference. Why care who nd plays or doesn't play?"
Well, ND traditionally has been a rival, or at least a regular opponent, of many in our conference, including Michigan, and now we are adding USC.
So, yeah, there is cause for interest. If ND gets shut out of the B1G, they are left with Navy and the ACC. How many billion is NBC going to pay for those matchups? ND commands a presence uniquely. Let's not kid ourselves. But ND has a choice between B1G and independence. They still insist on independence. It's time to shut them out until they make a decision on which conference to join just like every other university has done. In this changing football world, their hand can finally be forced if the B1G isn't stupid.
August 6th, 2023 at 10:06 PM ^
I agree, that's why I think Stanford is still in play if (more likely when) the B1G adds yet more teams. If the conference wants to play hardball with ND, scooping up Stanford potentially takes that scheduling option away from the domers. There's been 36 games between ND and Stanford over the years.
Cal, OTOH, holds no such leverage. They don't nearly the history of games vs ND (they've only played each other 4 times and not in nearly 40 years), and I doubt they matter at all to ND's fan base either.
This is so bizarre to me. Let them be independent,who cares? We didn't play them for like 50 years and eveything was fine, wasn't it? To hell with nd, that's all that needs to be said.
For some reason, I never considered what happens to the USC ND game now that USC is in the Big18(soon to be big 20). Was that protected or will it go the way of the Michigan-ND and get canceled? Also, would telling ND that the USC game is at risk of being phased out due to USC now being in the Big18 be the catalyst to get ND to join the Big18?
August 5th, 2023 at 10:11 AM ^
ND cherishes their rivalries with USC and Navy.
August 5th, 2023 at 10:50 AM ^
Which is why we should leverage USC against them.
I love playing ND, but why should we give them the privilege of playing B10 teams, and picking/choosing when they want to cancel/renew rivalries, while staying independent?
They want to stay independent? Cool, have fun playing service academies. And mid market conferences. The SEC and B10 don't need to schedule them any more
August 5th, 2023 at 11:02 AM ^
I agree. It’s time to play hardball with them.
In 2026, ND has four B1G teams on their schedule in a single season. Those teams are: USC, Wisconsin, MSU, and Purdue.
My view has been - ND is associated with the ACC. And, major conference teams need to “go through” a CCG. So, the ACC AD’s have a choice for their CCG. Two of the following- Atlantic Div champ, Coastal Div champ, or ND. It’s simple - pick two.. This way, ND has to deal with a CCG instead of a bye week when they just watch other strong teams lose - and, skate into the CFP.
August 5th, 2023 at 11:10 AM ^
The problem is that USC also cherishes the rivalry, and it’s their decision if they continue to play ND. “We” can’t force them into anything unless USC also wants to leverage them into the Big Ten.
August 5th, 2023 at 11:18 AM ^
Agreed. If USC wants to maintain that annual series with ND, one question will be the timing. Would it move to the usual OOC calendar - first three weeks - or, stay mid October in South Bend and LA after Thanksgiving.
If you notice, ND uses that end of season west coast trip not only for their regular season finale against USC or Stanford - but also, for recruiting. So, ND ends its season in California every year.
Did you really need a new post for this hot take?
Every person has an opinion, and feels the need to make a post! They will figure it all out, only for it to blow up in two weeks when ND, Stan, Cal, Clemson, FSU & Miami are invited.
August 5th, 2023 at 10:10 AM ^
Right, I mean how dare he post his thoughts about college football on a college football forum. It's entrapment. He set you up to have to click and comment and waste your life. No way you could ignore it if you weren't interested. No f**k'n way!
I must admit I would enjoy a day where ND could not find anyone significant to play.
And that may very well happen in the next 5 years or so
Look at their schedule… the games of significance are relatively few and far between already.
The Big 10 needs to grab Stanford and Cal, making all of the teams ND likes to consider rivals Big 10 teams.
Then the Big 10 can tell ND that they won't be playing non-conf games vs Big 10 teams, so join the conf. or the only rivalry games you'll be scheduling will be vs Navy, BC and Pitt.
Don’t forget Army, Air Force, the Merchant Marine Academy, and Little Sisters of the Poor…
August 5th, 2023 at 10:24 AM ^
Are Cal and Stanford really significant enough games to matter? Not really better than Navy.
Larry Scott destroyed the Pac-12 with his terrible leadership in a time of massive change. I'm not sure a former tennis executive would have been my first choice to run a big-time college athletics conference.
People will blame the B10, but they have been the Pac10/12s best friend over the last 100 years, especially the last 15 in reaching out to a) form an aliance of 25 teams with the E and W divisions that the Pac10 declined so they could persue their own TV Network whcih they 100% owned LOL and b) that earlier mentioned Pac-Big10 challenge for football that they also declined.
You can't help someone who doesn't want any help. And what exactly did people expect the B10 to do when Tex and OU turned their back on the B12? Sand around and say 'aw shucks?' Invite Syracuse or Pitt LOL?
The Pac 12 did this to themselves over the last 15 years.
August 5th, 2023 at 10:00 AM ^
Joel Klatt had a good podcast on this… and, the “self developed” PAC-12 network with no distribution is where it started.
A compare and contrast… which network is strongest in sports broadcasting… ABC / ESPN, NBC, CBS, or Fox?
I may not like the answer .. but, Fox seems to be pretty strong right now. And, they are a good partner for the B1G. And, the thing is.. the inventory / content library / desirable programming is about to grow with the four PAC teams joining the B1G.
August 5th, 2023 at 12:14 PM ^
Yes, absolutely. Larry Scott's disastrous leadership may not be sole reason for the Pac-12 demise, but it's a good chunk of the reason. The Pac-12 Presidents were then too slow, complacent, and apathetic to realize how bad he was.
You all sound like a bunch of scorned women. “Don’t play them… The whole conference should lock them out…” They don’t need UM, they don’t need USC, and they don’t need the B1G at all. They will schedule whoever is willing and those teams will be honored because it’s always a big deal to play Notre Dame. They will waltz into the playoffs every year, sharing their revenue with no one.
August 5th, 2023 at 10:00 AM ^
Brian Kelly is an asshole but he's a good coach and made ND better than they probably should have been based on talent and recent history. They were trending down toward the end of the Holtz era, then struggled through really mediocre to bad runs under Davies, Willingham, and Weiss, and we'll see how they do under Freeman but early returns aren't great especially when they couldn't even pay for their preferred OC from Utah. Feels like ND is maybe embarking on another 8/9 win ceiling run that has basically defined them for decades. But because NBC loves money and sports media is run largely but old men they'll keep treating ND as something more than high-end Purdue.
August 5th, 2023 at 10:05 AM ^
And that’s exactly why the playoff criteria should change.
August 5th, 2023 at 10:05 AM ^
It is becoming increasingly less likely that "good" teams will schedule ND as an OOC game since almost every "good" team is going to have numerous challenges in-conference going forward.
Will an SEC team having to play Bama/UGA/UT/OU regularly want to add ND? Or would we (or osu) want to fit in ND having to play PSU/USC/UCLA/UW/UO/Wisc all the time?
ND will have no problem finding "power conference" foes to schedule, but it will increasingly be the dregs of those conferences rather than the marquee schools as the new conference realities set it. That might be enough to get them in the playoff, but only due to the increase in the number of teams allowed in (and even then, if conference championship get autobids there might not be enough to let in a mediocre ND over the other marquee teams).
August 5th, 2023 at 11:22 AM ^
I think with a 12 team playoff, those teams might be more willing to schedule ND, figuring they'll probably be in the playoff either way, and if they don't, there was probably more going on than a loss to ND. I don't know the particulars of why Michigan and ND don't play anymore, but the expansion to 12 will probably make both teams more into it. It feels like we're headed to Michigan and OSU being 10+ wins going into The Game every year, with both of them basically already in the playoffs. The schedule until then is looking more and more like we're just waiting for The Game (although maybe the B10 expansion changes that s little). Scheduling ND might provide a needed "real" game as playoff prep.
August 5th, 2023 at 11:16 AM ^
I agree. I mean, I hate Notre Dame, but I think their independent status is actually kind of neat. Not to mention, I think there's some irony that this board went on a multi-page diatribe about "the death of college football as we know it" but if Notre Dame is brought up, it's all "those dudes should join a conference and screw them if they don't" - aren't independent teams one of those cool wrinkles that college football has too?
August 5th, 2023 at 11:21 AM ^
A generation or two ago, there were a fair number of independents - I believe Penn State was one before joining the Big Ten. The number has decreased significantly - even BYU will join a conference - the Big 12, and UConn will join them.
U Mass, I believe, is still independent… who else? Army might be the other.
So, effective the ‘24 season - FBS will have a total of three (3) independent teams. Army, UMass, and ND.
August 5th, 2023 at 11:30 AM ^
There were a bunch of other independents before the 1990s: PSU, FSU, Miami, West Virginia, Syracuse, VT, Pitt, Louisville. All the notable ones joined conferences that decade - except ND.
August 5th, 2023 at 12:21 PM ^
aren't independent teams one of those cool wrinkles that college football has too?
I don't think it's that cool when a school wants to compete for the national title but gets to play by different rules: 1) it can set its own schedule, while everyone else is bound by the scheduling decisions of their conference and 2) it gets to keep all bowl payouts while conference schools share them.
#1 doesn't entirely apply to ND anymore, though, as they're now bound to play something like five ACC games per year. #2 still does, AFAIK.
August 5th, 2023 at 12:20 PM ^
Notre Dame has great latitude in who they schedule (outside of the ACC arrangement). They need the CFB Playoffs to have an At-Large bid option continue to be part of the playoff structure. Without it, they will join a conference. And given the strong TV / Media relationships they have, I don't that changing anytime soon.
I don't know the particulars but it's generally a safe bet to assume ND and USC will make the dumbest short-term choices they can and disregard how it impacts anyone else. They're two programs that act the way certain people in the media think schools like Michigan act. It's sort of crazy how often they get treated with kid gloves for acting petulant.