further adventures in Jed York being unsuited for his position
TomVH: Just an FYI
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Can I take it off...I am fat and it is not comfortable
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Can I take it off...I am fat and it is not comfortable
Is this reaction new or has it always been there? Seems to me that the coaches have been clear from the start about taking 5-6 OL and this seems like she's surprised about the number of commits we have.
until you see who the other 4 are going to be. The competition is pretty stiff now, but it seems to me that if he's always wanted to wait, it's because he wants to see who Michigan will recruit. Of course it's still a coin flip as to whether all the talent is a plus or minus. In my mind, if I thought I was up to the competition, I would join the team stacked with talent, cause that's what wins championships. But if he now thinks he can't crack the starting lineup, then being a backup on a championship team may not be enough exposure to make it to the NFL.
The argument that being on a stacked team will hurt exposure for the NFL is bunk. With the exception of QB where you only have one guy who plays - if you have NFL potential, you'll see the field. There are 5 OL spots, and the coaches will put the best 5 on the field, for the most part. And if he thinks he might not be NFL potential, why not win a lot of games and leave with an elite education?
I know Matt Cassell happened, but that's such an exception. No team has ever had too many NFL calibur O-linemen that one of them was on the bench as an upperclassman.
She's probably more concerned with who the commits are. I would be too, with how loaded her sons class would be if he came here.
Edit: beaten to the punch. Damn phone calls...
It goes against our ways. You must hit F5 no later than every 5 minutes to be fully up-to-date with the workings of The Blue Dragon and his minions. For now I will forgive your trespasses, but tread lightly.
Wlubd, I think we both just said this could be an issue yesterday in the Kalis thread. I think you may have shared my feeling about him and possibly Wisconsin. It just feels like things may have changed on his end.
I could see a concern on Diamond's part, but the flip side is that he would have the opportunity to play on potentially one the country's strongest lines. If Kalis and Posada play inside, then I think Diamond gets a tackle position.
Or he might sit on the bench and watch a great o line.
I have to agree the way the Kalis commitment read was he is destined to be a great guard with his "short arms" (not sure if I see it). If that's the case, then Diamond would probably be the best blind side option we had. I have to think Magnuson will hold down the right tackle position.
Why is it that you see Magnuson at right tackle. Im pretty sure he was recruited and has the build and ability to play on the left side. Though once Morris gets the nod, I could see him on the right side.
the weakside tackle role but he's 6'6" whereas many teams have (and most teams want) guys 6'7"-6'9". The Patriots just drafted a former TE who was freakishly tall but underweight to be their future LT because agility, height, and reach are so valuable guarding the qb's blindside. Jake Long was perfect at 6'7" because he had abnormally long arms. His shorter stature meant he didn't have to get as low but could still fence off speedy outside rushers with his wingspan. Magnuson is an inch shorter with a normal wingspan yet is athletic enough to learn the passblocking game in college, but still has footwork issues and can get beat by speed at times. He's dominant in strength matchups and run blocking, so he's better at RT unless we don't get a true LT prospect then he could start now at RT, then move over in a year or 2. If we landed 6'9" Zach Banner then Magnuson stays at the strongside tackle position.
You and I get our info from different sources, clearly.
6'6" is tall enough for LT, especially in college. A lot of college LTs are 6'6".
From what I've read on Magnuson, his strengths and weaknesses are almost reversed from what you state. I've read that his pass blocking skills are near perfect, his footwork is great and very rarely gets beat on a pass rush. I've read that his run-blocking skills are what he needs to work on, and that's partially because he lacks the ideal strength and weight at this point, since he's only 275.
Zach Banner, OTOH, is huge but doesn't move nearly as well, and looks like he might be a better RT since he can just plow with his huge body.
I think you're getting too hung up merely on height and not looking at everything else closely enough.
He is plenty tall to play LT, no doubt about it.
You are also correct that the poster has Magnuson's strengths and weaknesses reversed for some reason. Everyone says his pass blocking is fantastic, but he needds to work on his run blocking.
Wasn't there an interview recently when Jordan stated himself that the Kalis commitment wouldn't affect him? I think the coaches need to start letting then know that Kalis, Bars and Stacy really have a better chance at guard than at tackle. I would hate to miss out on Diamond.
I don't understand why this kid is so adament about waiting,waiting, waiting.He has been on our radar for 18 months and been to AA a half dozen times.It shouldn't take 12-15 visits to AA to get a commitment.If we can land Banner and Garnett then thats what we do and let Diamond know the ship has sailed.Kid seems a little too prima dona.He should have been on board months ago.You snooze, you lose.
Well his coaches really likes recruits to wait and give the team more exposure to help other recruits out as well. And, honestly, he should wait till he's comfortable. The coaches will wait for him except if we get another elite, but those are all far away, and it will be a while.
Also, to be clear, Michigan has not stopped recruiting Jordan. His mom just has some concerns, big difference.
Well if we miss on Diamond hopefully we can pull in Garnett. I wouldn't mind another gaurd and people here seem pretty high on him. I think it's unrealistic to hope for both, probably on or the other, or someone else
thanks as always Mr. VH. obviously loving the oline recruits we have and really love what seems to be some flexibility with a few guys to slide inside or out, with both Kalis and Bars tagged as OT by the recruiting services, but both potentially moving inside for good in college. I hope Jordan's Mom continues to embrace everything that there is to consider as her son potentially chooses to play for and attend UM. Competition is everywhere, and if I am a kid...man, to be surrounded by great talent, take advantage of that.
I think that it's good that he and his family are taking a deliberate approach to thinking about where he wants to go. Unlike fans of other schools (ummm... say that school in OHIO), I think that Michigan fans recognize that this is a big decision for a 17 or 18 year old, and want them to make the right decision for them-- not just the one that would make us happy. :)
TomVH - your posts are always very appreciated.
Great players, it seems to me, don't worry about the competition - they seek it out. I think Jordan Diamond is a great player and won't worry about his decision as such.
While I agree that it would be a HUGE shame to miss out on Diamond, isn't it kind of nice that we're at the point with our O-Line recruiting that elite prospects don't want to come here because they're worried about not being able to crack the lineup. I'll take those concerns over the ones that we've had the past couple years every day of the week. And of course twice on Sunday.
It'd be great to get another guard in there, like Garnett. That being said, Diamond is a great player and I'm a little surprised that they're intimidated by the competition. That would usually make you a better player, and talent-wise, he'd probably be our #1 or 2 tackle, assuming Kalis is a guard.
Wish the best of luck to Jordan, as he's gonna be a great player in the next couple years
....biggest recruting problem we face this year, I'll take it -- a good problem to have!
Agreed. Not many times you see a 5* recruit scared of getting playing time..
doesn't it usually go best pass blocker is your left tackle generally? then the rest fill in from there. in the pros you here about tackles moving inside to play guard later in there career, couldn't you just have 4 elite guys who all would normally play tackle? or is there a benifit to shorter bigger but less athletic gaurds you normally see play inside that i'm not seeing.
Then Michigan isn't for him...and I'm okay with that.
Let's make this clear again: he didn't say he didn't like competition.
is that injuries are all too common on the OL...most guys on the two-deep will get some PT.
to too many Tackles pretty quick.
Looks like the race for the sixth (offensive line-) man will be a marathon rather than a sprint. I'm OK with that, but would still love to have Diamond.
seems to me if we get some good skill postiion talent next year, we should be in prime position to make a big run Devins Redshirt Sernior Year (if he gets one) or Morris sophmore year and junior year. just lots of talent and depth to that talent at ever position besides skill positions on offence this year.
I'm sure the group of six will be split once you consider redshirting (I think Kalis plays right away), not to mention injuries and position switches (along the line).
Kalis will redshirt. He might be ready to play if it was necessary, but his frosh year we'll have Omameh, Barnum, Khoury, Mealer, Pace, Miller, Bryant and Posada for 3 interior spots. If Kalis is playing, it's a bad thing. I assume the seniors will man the guard spots in 2012, but if they can't, RS frosh Chris Bryant will see the field before Kalis. Being an OL isn't just about being big, there is a lot of playbook learning needed, and I doubt Kalis will be where he needs to be.
Or it is a great thing if Kalis is playing because maybe he will be THAT good
But I've almost never seen the O-lineman who was "that good" to play and not redshirt, rather than the fear-inducing "everyone else was that bad". A guy can be better than someone in front of him who's not very good; but almost every offensive lineman can use a year to get bigger and stronger, and learn technique.
But they need to think in terms of Redshirting as well - probably most schools have taken 4 Tackles in the last 2 classes, where Michigan took zero (!)
Sure, Diamond may have a direct competitor in his own class, but he's going to have a RS freshman direct competitor at any other school. We've got Lewan, Schofield, and no one. Add Braden in his own class and you still only have 2 scholarship guys to compete with (i.e. Lewan, Braden, and Diamond all competing for the LT spot). I'd venture to guess most schools have more than (or at least not less than) 3 scholarship players competing for each Tackle position. Everywhere worth playing, you're going to have beat a guy one class above or one class below for a starting spot. Very little difference if the guys happens to be in the same class.
I think my point stands even if Kalis plays tackle - he'll redshirt. That still shouldn't dissuade Diamond, we still have a lack of talent at OT and even with him we have 3 tackles in this class and none is the two classes above him. Realistically, he needs to beat out one of them or have one of them get hurt and he's on the field. Not many other places have as easy a path to PT.
I'm not disagreeing with your post, though I may have phrased it oddly - that first sentence was meant to say we'd have that type of OG depth only if Kalis plays guard vs. tackle.
I'm saying Diamond will only have 2 other guys to compete with, even assuming we take 4 tackles (we'll end up with 2 right tackles, 2 left tackles) - he'll have to compete with Lewan/Schofield and one of his fellow incoming classmates. That's probably much less competition than he'd see at most other schools. Should be easier competition as well, given the guy doesn't have a year or two head start (since none were taken in the 2 preceeding years). Wiscy or Iowa are bound to have RS freshman, sophmores, and juniors on scholarship ahead of him. If not, they're going to take several tackles this year as well.
In practice, he'll RS, wait a season or two and learn behind Lewan/Schofield, and have the door wide open. Beat one guy and you're in. Probably not much easier than that.
I didn't realize you had split it up as RT or LT, which you really shouldn't do since all of those guys will be able to play both. Rarely is a guy a left tackle to right tackle, all of them will play both with one or the other that they're a better fit for. But if Diamond and Magnuson both practice at LT but are the two best tackles, one of them will start at RT. That way you don't have a situation where your back-up LT is better than your starting RT.
If you have 4 OTs on the team, the best 2 will start, regardless of which side they're slotted for.
That is exactly my point. I'm saying even if we take 4 tackles, only 2 of them will be competing for the same spot (ie not all 4, or in your example 3, would be in competition with each other)
I think my points are fairly clear, and we're arguing the same thing, but I have to go take a crap now.
but i'd like to give you a friendly counterpoint. Bryant might need to play right away, otherwise we'll have walkons in the 2 deep. Pace and Miller aren't really interchangable to Guard, though Guards can be interchangable to Center in a pinch. My other concern (just because it happens so often) is that one of our young Guard prospects moves to the even thinner DT rotation. If that happens, like it often can, then for the 2 Guard spots we could be looking at Omameh, Barnum, Mealer, and Bryant. Still enough for Kalis to redshirt comfortably, though he's already better than Boren was at 17 IMO. 2013 is the real problem, which is probably why I think they got so many Guards this year. It could be Bryant and Kalis, with maybe Bars and Stacey, then walkons. Still an injury away from walkons in the 2 deep.
I doubt Bryant will have to play right away, and we won't really have walk-ons in the 2-deep. Our starters will be Omameh and Barnum, Molk at center. Khoury will likely back-up all three of them, with Mealer backing him up, essentially. If Khoury goes in for Omameh or Barnum, Pace becomes the back-up center and Mealer is the next Guard in. We have 6 non-true freshmen, non-walkon interior linemen.
OL is not a group that rotates much, except for injuries. A lot of injuries would have to happen for us to play a walk-on at OG.
Also, I don't see why we would move a guard to DT. We don't have a shortage of DTs in 2011, and we're only losing one before 2012. Assuming we pick up a DT or two in this recruiting class, that won't be a problem, and it would then make the guard group tight, so there'd be no reason to do that. Washington, Campbell, Ash, Wilkins/Talbott, and freshmen will be better DTs than just about any non-starter we would move over from the OL.
2013: Center will be Pace backed up by Miller. Guards (wild guess) could be Bryant and Kalis as starters, Posada, Bars, and Stacey backing them up. That's two injuries away from a walk-on in the 2 deep. And I'm not sure why the 2-deep is that big of a concern on the OL, since that means we're 4 injuries away from a walk-on seeing the field, unless Miller can play Guard (very possible) in which case we're 5 injuries away from playing a walk-on. Not gonna lose sleep over that. And what team doesn't have problems with 5 injuries on the interior OL?
Sorry if this has ever been covered before.
One of the things which has me most excited for this year's recruiting is that many top recruits are at positions which (at least from college to the pros) seem to project well.
In the NFL draft, OL and LBs seem to be the safest first round picks (maybe because so few lbs are taken and OL generate game tape on every snap). Has anyone looked at the development of highly rated high school players by position.
A top 5 class full of high-conversion positions should really bode well for us.