Simpson vs DDJ tomorrow
Would you rather have player 1, who has shot 19/53 (36%) from the field, and 3/21 (13%) from three?
or
Would you rather have player 2, who has shot 50/109 (46%) from the field, and 8/30 (27%) from three?
Edit: Not to mention, player 2 is better everything other than shooting, when compared to player 1.
These are DDJ and X's respective B1G stats this year. Some of you guys are so focused on hating on X that you don't realize that DeJulius has been MUCH worse. At least X's struggles are largely due to being forced into an insanely high usage, that few would succeed with playing with the skill we have on this team. The notion that tomorrow, DDJ could be some savior that finally pulls us out of the grips of X's inabilities, while being plugged into his heightened role, with THOSE stats, is completely laughable.
Whatever happens tomorrow, whether DDJ plays great or otherwise, whether we win or lose, will not be a good judgement of the Simpson vs DDJ debate. But I can already sense people excited for the opportunity to jump to conclusions that the team is somehow better off without Simpson.
January 28th, 2020 at 2:26 AM ^
This team is lost when Zavier isn't steering the ship. I hope DDJ is a revelation and this opportunity kickstarts his rise to lead dog of next year's team -- but in reality, I expect that they'll be lost tomorrow.
Perhaps Bajema will have to enter the rotation too with Zavier and Livers (presumably) out. The people who criticize Juwan's rotations and player usage will get to see what's on the other side of the fence.
January 28th, 2020 at 2:43 AM ^
In defense of DDJ, he hasn't really been able to get into any sort of rhythm. Obviously, he's not going to run things as smooth as X as a PG. However, I expect him to shoot better with the kind of minutes he's going to get with X out. He is also one of the few players on this team that can create his own shot. He gives good effort on defense as well. The bottom line is these guys need to start hitting open shots, and be much better from the free throw line then 12-21 or whatever it was against Illinois.
January 28th, 2020 at 2:48 AM ^
I agree for the most part, and would say DDJ is the ONLY player on this team that can create their own shot.
I expect him to shoot better too, but only because he's been shooting so awfully in the B1G games that it's hard to see him do worse. But contrary to your opinion, I think it'll be more of a challenge to shoot well than usual, given he'll have floor general duties as well.
I can't edit the OP, but the point of this was to perhaps quell the potential overreaction to one game against a bad team. DDJ can be good, and it won't mean shit in regards to Simpson's utter importance to the team, DDJ can be bad, and it won't mean all hope is lost for next year at the PG position.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:07 PM ^
Simpson can create his own shot - he's become very effective at getting to the rim and finishing. The problem is that he has never developed a pullup J.
January 28th, 2020 at 4:58 AM ^
So, in other words, this is a preemptive argument for when the team looks better with DDJ?
January 28th, 2020 at 6:38 AM ^
You act as if we don't want the team to look good tonight. There is nothing more I would like than for DDJ and the whole squad to beat the shit out of a sorry Nebraska team.
What part of anything we've seen so far from DDJ in B1G play, however, makes you think that DDJ would fare better than Simpson? An unbiased observer would not look at a man who shoots 36% from the field and 12% from three, and be so confident that they are a better option compared to another man who has proven his worth over three years. Unless you have some unknown allegiance to DDJ, in which your opinions would then be understandable, your opinion comes from nothing but a predisposed disdain for Simpson as a player, where you would blindly believe that any option is better, despite strong evidence pointing to the contrary. I don't mean this to everyone who believes that DDJ might be a breath of fresh air, I specifically say this towards you, as I've seen your takes on this subject, and it's clear that you hold a very specific disdain for Simpson.
January 28th, 2020 at 6:46 AM ^
That is just false. I have always been a fan of a lot of things that Simpson brings to the table. I think on balance this has been a disappointing season for him and has really highlighted his limitations.
Your last sentence is how you feel about DDJ, you have just framed it in a way to cover yourself. You are saying “even if DDJ plays better than Simpson he should not be considered as a better option than Simpson.” That is illogical.
DDJ will get his first crack at running the team tonight. One game against Nebraska is not the end all-be all, but it will be a huge piece of evidence regarding DDJ. Perhaps it would be wise to wait for those returns before a preemptive post to control the narrative about the topic.
January 28th, 2020 at 7:00 AM ^
The title of this thread very clearly explains that this is in regards to the game vs Nebraska (and you seemed to have edited your post to correct to that, and I will disagree again, regarding it being a "huge piece of evidence," whether he plays well or not).
Are you saying it would be illogical to refuse to consider, let's say, Kyle Kuzma better than LeBron James, after he plays one game in place of LeBron and performs better than LeBron usually does? It's quite common sense to not overreact, and consider larger sample sizes instead, but if my memory serves me correct, you seem to do that a lot.
A bit off-topic, but I've seen this too much as a Raptors fan based off of small sample sizes. "Norman Powell is better than DeMar DeRozan," "Fred VanVleet is better than Kyle Lowry." As a UM fan, recently, there's the "John O'Korn is better than Wilton Speight and Brandon Peters."
Until DDJ consistently proves to be a better option, which he has done the exact opposite of so far this season, of course I'm going to refuse to acknowledge that he is better than Simpson.
January 28th, 2020 at 8:14 AM ^
I think on balance this has been a disappointing season for him
He's averaging 12.8 ppg and 8.3 apg, both career highs by far. In fact that's one of the highest assist averages in school history. Just imagine if his teammates could actually shoot.
January 28th, 2020 at 8:28 AM ^
It would be nice if he got more help. It would also help if he could shoot, at all.
Look, the team is a bit of a sinking ship right now. Is there a part of me who agrees that DDJ is a bit of a Hail Mary right now? Sure. But to essentially “get out in front” of a possible big DDJ game to kind of throw water on it is just weird.
What if DeJulius goes for a legit 24 and 6 tonight on 45% shooting and we win by 15? What if that happens? That would be awesome, and it would certainly not be meaningless in terms of the calculus going forward.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:13 PM ^
My pushback about anything from tonight is Eli Brooks, who has lit up some teams (Iowa, UNC, App St.) and otherwise not looked particularly good offensively. Nobody is "blocking" DDJ from seeing the court beyond his own performance; he's a below-average defender, has struggled at times to shoot the ball, and doesn't get to the line much. I want him to succeed but even if he plays well tonight, it doesn't necessarily portend continued success because he's had half a season to break out and hasn't. That's not his fault per se, but on a team desperate for consistent offense and shooting he's been streaky. And he's 5th on the team in minutes; he's seen the court quite a bit.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:33 PM ^
I would just counter that and say "light em up DDJ!"
DDJ is the most criticized emerging talent I can remember at Michigan. People go through extensive exercises to list his weaknesses and why he isn't good, seemingly instead of criticizing Simpson's play when it should be. In this odd case, the backup point guard has become the scapegoat.
Meanwhile, Dejulius just keeps his head down, continues to improve, and begins putting bigger and bigger imprints on games in limited minutes. Seems like a great kid and a good player who is going to be really good pretty soon. Hopefully it is now. Big opportunity for him, hopefully he takes it and runs with it.
January 28th, 2020 at 2:32 PM ^
I mean Nebraska is probably the worst team in the conference. I hope we lookg great because even a close win foreshadows a really rough few weeks until at least Livers comes back.
January 28th, 2020 at 3:05 PM ^
I will be shocked if we win this game by more than 10 points. If I am honest, I will be surprised if we win at all. Without two starters and no confidence shooting the ball, on the road?... Crappola.
January 28th, 2020 at 4:10 PM ^
Didn't they beat Iowa, who owns us? Unless the shooting improves, I don't see us winning.
January 28th, 2020 at 6:22 AM ^
Don't have much respect for people who are hating on Simpson. A certain kind of low-rent narcissist needs his team to win every game. He's destined to suffer. Apparently these days in America, nursing homes are reporting more and more elderly people dying of heart attacks, with their faces twisted in rage in front of their TVs.
Have at it.
January 28th, 2020 at 6:30 AM ^
Hating on Simpson and thinking that Howard should give DeJulius a shot at running the point are not the same thing.
Simpson has played very well at times, but has also been very sloppy offensively and defensively at others. He has intermittently been a turnover machine, gotten toasted by opposing guards, and now got himself suspended at a crucial time of the season.
People are really after the DDJ “truthers” right now, but the “Simpson walks on water” crowd is easily the stranger psychological dynamic of the two.
January 28th, 2020 at 6:50 AM ^
I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite literally zero people on the “Simpson walks on water” crowd, other than his family. I think most of us have been more frustrated with Simpson than anyone else, as the ball is in his hands most of the time.
Unless you think it's "psychologically strange" to point out that it's laughable to actually believe that someone with significantly lower percentages, worse ball-distribution, worse defense etc..., all on significantly lower usage, would likely be the best option?
January 28th, 2020 at 6:53 AM ^
How about just waiting for the game tonight and seeing how DDJ plays?
January 28th, 2020 at 9:26 AM ^
And--of course--I didn't say that Simpson walks on water. But he's one of the the three-four best PGs in the country. DDJ is nowhere near that. Would love if he became it, but the stats don't add up for him, as of now, in any way.
He'll get a chance to grow tonight, though. Personally, I wish him all the best.
January 28th, 2020 at 10:12 AM ^
" But he's one of the the three-four best PGs in the country. "
Just... no...
Simpson: 12.8pts, 4.3reb, 8.3ast, 2.5A:T, PER 19.2
Cassius Winston: 18pts, 2.4reb, 6.1ast, 1.96A:T, PER 22.2
Tyrese Halliburton: 15.7pts, 5.9reb, 7.1ast, 2.6A:T, PER 26.1
Tre Jones: 14.9pts, 4.1reb, 6.8ast, 2.3A:T, PER 21.9
Ashton Hagans: 13.2pts, 4.3reb, 7.3ast, 2.6A:T, PER 21.1
Payton Pritchard: 19.7pts, 4.3reb, 5.8ast, 2.1A:T, PER 27.1
January 28th, 2020 at 11:13 AM ^
So. . .leads the country in assists and is sixth on your list, on a team where for six games he's suddenly had to become the scorer, too. . . what did I get wrong?
January 28th, 2020 at 12:53 PM ^
He's worse than 5 guys I pulled up in a 30 seconds cursory search. He isn't 6th on my list.
What did you get wrong? I listed 5 players better than him - so he isn't a top 3-4 PG in the country.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:57 PM ^
You could say in a way Simpson is one of the top PG simply for what he does for his team. His play this year hasn't been as good though, his hook shot hasn't been falling as much, and he's been turning the ball over much more. I'm not a DDJ over Simpson guy, I'd rather see DDJ get more minutes and Brooks get less because of how Brooks has been playing lately.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:12 PM ^
And what does the supporting cast for MSU (14), Iowa State, Duke (9), Kentucky (13) and Oregon (11) look like compared to UM -- SPOILER ALERT -- it looks a lot better.
Only with Halliburton could you make the argument that he is doing more with less than Z. A PG (especially a pass first PG) can only put up dominant stat lines when he has a solid supporting cast -- Michigan does not have it, which makes the stats that Z has managed this season even more impressive.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:58 PM ^
" A PG (especially a pass first PG) "
That is just it - Simpson isn't really a "pass first" point guard. He's largely a "pass only" point guard.
These other guys can pass (some arguably better) AND they can score. They can get other folks buckets AND get themselves buckets.
Simpson is a good point guard, particularly when surrounded by a good supporting cast. He is not a top 3-4 point guard in college basketball.
January 28th, 2020 at 3:23 PM ^
Can't have it both ways.
How is Z a "Pass Only" PG and yet he is the 2nd leading scorer on our team (Livers avg. 0.3 more PPG but has played in 6 fewer games)?
How is it that Z can't shoot / can't make free throws and can't "get himself buckets" and yet he averages almost 13 PPG?
OP was comparing him to other PGs they considered to be better -- and for almost all of them, the only statistical category where they would be considered superior is PPG. (almost all of them shoot a lower FG% than Z BTW)
January 28th, 2020 at 6:30 AM ^
I don't think you're reading the situation like most. We're all happy with Simpson - except for his shooting. Nobody wanted him suspended for a game, nobody wanted DDJ to essentially bench him. (Ok, I'll allow the occasional Maizen-like guy that thinks JH is a shit coach, because those guys exist.) I think we do wish DDJ had more opportunity to naturally grow into the role rather than be dropped in like this. And I think there are some that believe the season is lost, so get DDJ and Bajema in more to let them grow up prior to next year.
Other than the 'JH is shit' guys, I'm not sure there's a wrong answer with this team. I'll take JH at his word that Simpson earned a suspension for whatever it was. And with that, I'll hope that DDJ steps into the limelight and lifts his team to a win. And the following game, with (presumably) Xavier back in the lineup, there's a newfound sense of freedom that he doesn't have to do everything - that DDJ can help. Maybe this will be good in the long run for the team this year, and not just into the more distant future?
January 28th, 2020 at 6:43 AM ^
"We're all happy with Simpson - except for his shooting. Nobody wanted him suspended for a game, nobody wanted DDJ to essentially bench him."
Perhaps I've just been around too much recently, but I've read many things that would suggest otherwise. Of course, this isn't even close to a majority of the fanbase, but I've seen quite the amount.
January 28th, 2020 at 8:25 AM ^
Wait are there people really second guessing Xs suspension?
Like wut. Howard Haters on full tilt.
January 28th, 2020 at 7:30 AM ^
X is the best player on our team, by far., and even when Livers is healthy. I don’t get the hate, kid has had a great career, he’s just not a great shooter. But when he’s driving and kicking our offense is good.
January 28th, 2020 at 8:02 AM ^
Wow. Simpson is not a better than Livers. My bet is that Livers will be a first round pick next year if he can stay healthy.
January 28th, 2020 at 8:17 AM ^
Livers probably is a better NBA prospect but that doesn't necessarily mean he's the better college player.
January 28th, 2020 at 9:24 AM ^
Yes he is. Livers is a better 3 point shooter than X, that's it. X is a better passer, better defender, gets to the bucket better, and even is a better rebounder. Livers is a terrible rebounder for someone 6-7, 230 lbs. In fact, Teske is probably better than Livers too.
Livers could develop into an NBA player if he's healthy next season, but his 13 points and 3 boards a game on a team where he's expected to get a ton of looks is not that great. Simpson is the 2nd best PG in the conference and leads the country in assists, that's way more than Livers can say.
January 28th, 2020 at 10:15 AM ^
Teske better than Livers eh?! Wow.
This argument is so stupid because no one is willing to even be tempted into changing their minds so this back and forth is only creating some sort of micro rift amongst posters/fans.
There are those who look at the stats and say Zavier is the 2nd best pg in the conference. Maybe you're right but probably not. The amount he plays and the way teams are playing him, he's of course going to rack up some numbers (and frankly there is truth to his numbers being not as good as they could be if others would make fucking shots).
But on the other hand these same people are not seeing or are not processing fully WHY Zavier is getting these certain stats and/or not seeing what's NOT happening with him on the court. What's not happening is he can't make a fucking shot beyond a layup. He can't penetrate and draw contact. He can't shoot free throws. Now some of these things happen as he's on the court for 36 minutes but they aren't done efficiently. Teams are half allowing certain things to happen as they take away the other pieces of our offense and much of that is letting Zavier "get his" and they live with that. 20+ shot attempts to get 18 pts...hoo boy, sure he racked up some numbers, got some assists...and in doing so most of the game was on his shoulders and Z ain't scoring the 30+ points necessary for that shot volume.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:32 PM ^
So is draft position the only criteria for who the better basketball player is? By that logic, Jordan Poole was the best player on last year's team and DJ Wilson was a better college player than Walton, Irvin, Wagner (Moritz), Rahk and Duncan
January 28th, 2020 at 7:31 AM ^
I'd rather have 60 year old Gary Grant. But he's out of eligibility.
January 28th, 2020 at 7:56 AM ^
Agree. We shall see the comparison better when we need FTs or a solid quality shot in crunch time.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:20 AM ^
If a player can't come through at crunch time, the rest is gibberish. Stars don't miss FT with game on the line....sorry.
January 28th, 2020 at 7:57 AM ^
Should run Point Franz Wagner and try to set the turnover record
January 28th, 2020 at 8:10 AM ^
Wait, are people calling for Simpson to be benched? That's crazy.
January 28th, 2020 at 9:13 AM ^
X will always hold a place in my heart for the great memories he has given this program.
That said, the sheer amount of talent around him in the past has helped mask his weaknesses. Now that he is called on to be the main guy, he can't do it; he just does not have the game.
I don't think the team will be better off, but I think it will give them the opportunity to see what DDJ can do given the full command.
January 28th, 2020 at 9:28 AM ^
It's great that you can "already sense people excited for the opportunity to jump to conclusions"
Obviously, a couple of "ready to move on to the next PG" crowd has triggered your post. You can spend the game watch more concerned with the laughable notion syndrome.
But you are talking in a circle, saying whatever happens, plays great or not, win or lose, will not be a good judgement of the PG debate.
Alot of us are curious to see an alternative to the obvious eyeball test results with Simpson.
Team skill level/ injury reality or not, Simpson is lacking the skill set to carry any team to greater heights.
Teams are no longer guarding his jumper.
Consider defending Ayo or Cassius with a sag off, dare you approach.
Let's just let the rest of us see what happens with this opportunity.
January 28th, 2020 at 9:30 AM ^
Woof, those are some ugly numbers for DDJ.
Definitely weird how the mind works. I've felt all year that Simpson is the better overall option, but it also felt like DDJ brought a real scoring spark when he entered the game. Those raw numbers make it pretty clear that my perception was incorrect.
January 28th, 2020 at 9:48 AM ^
Raw numbers can be misleading, particularly when the sample size is low. In that instance, anecdotal evidence is almost as valuable. DDJ has provided a spark when he is in the game. He carried us back into the game against Iowa with Simpson on the bench in the first half and we likely would have won the Illinois game if he had continued to assert himself in the final minutes of the game instead of deferring. He also ran out on Minnesota a bit to stretch that lead before the Davis/Castleton lineup debut.
DDJ's biggest issue is passivity.
January 28th, 2020 at 9:49 AM ^
Wait- are you saying the fans have the option of DDJ serving Z's suspension? If not, what's the point?
It will be interesting to see how DDJ responds.
January 28th, 2020 at 10:03 AM ^
The sample size in college basketball is real small. I don't think it's fair to look at DDJ in limited minutes when he's almost never playing the point and declare him a bust as some people are doing. It turns out, reps in basketball help a hell of a lot. You can look at the data for young guards in the NBA who run the pick and roll. Some guys are so physically dominant that they don't need those reps to be good.
However, I don't think it's the worst thing in the world for Michigan to see what they have in DDJ. I love Simpson, but he's a limited offensive player. On the right squad, he's a perfect fit. On a team that can't score at all, he can sometimes be a limitation. I mean, they have other guys cough Brooks and lately Wagner who are more of a problem than Simpson. Again, love Wagner's potential, but he has shot it pretty badly and Brooks can't seem to get his shot off against good teams.
Michigan needs someone who can beat his man and take a shot. If Davis doesn't miss both free throws, DDJ had a late Kobe assist (RIP) where he drew two players and missed a jumper. I just think this debate is more complex than some people are making it. On a team of scorers and shooters, Simpson is great. On this team, I think some of his limitations are more glaring.
January 28th, 2020 at 10:38 AM ^
Also, for those who have played and coached. It can be hard to adjust to a role where you don't get dribbles and touches. We'd all love to coach klay Thompson, but a lot of guys need the feel of the ball to get into a game. I think Michigan relies a bit too much on Simpson at times, and it can hurt the flow. Basketball is a rhythm game.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:44 AM ^
simpson handles the ball so much because he has to. everyone else in the starting lineup is below avg ballhandler, even brooks. and teske is probably the second best passer. that is why this team is toast when it can't catch and shoot. simpson does a great job of getting guys open looks. they just fail at making them. then he goes into hero ball, which is never good.