SI Lead Story: Rich Rodriguez thriving at Arizona (writer talks some about Michigan)

Submitted by IvyLeague on

Article

Nothing new but thought others might find it of interest on a Thursday afternoon.

"Seemed like what was a Rodriguez problem in 2010 was actually a Michigan problem"

Quote by Rodriguez on Michigan "It's not like I dwell on it, but when people ask me about it, I say, yeah, it sitll bothres me. It still frustrates me because we'd like to hav eseen what we could do with another year or two."

Talks about how Arizona AD Greg Bryne who hired Dan Mullen at Mississippi State thought hiring Rich Rodriguez to Arizona was a no brainer.

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Blue Durham

October 30th, 2014 at 6:58 PM ^

I'm not going to give coaches credit either way for half-seasons.
It is part of Stoops record, he prepared his team, he called the shots, he was on the sideline. If it doesn't go on his record, then whose record does it go on? Since you don't think that it should go on Stoops record, should wins be taken away from the coaches that won those games???? Its on Stoops' record, he owns it. So should you. The larger point though was not limited to Stoops, it was Arizona, regardless of who was on the sideline at what point during some season. Your arbitrary point was irrelevant.

Joined: 06/30/2008

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Reader71

October 30th, 2014 at 4:29 PM ^

His point was that Coach Rod took over a team that was "meh" and had them at the same level of "meh" for two years. He has made great improvements this season, though. But the poster above conceded that, he's just saying it wasn't some miraculous turnaround. It has been a successful building of a program. That .667 record is exactly the same mark as Brady Hoke before this season began. Were you happy with it then? Coach Rod is a good coach. He will succeed at any medium-sized school he goes to. He seems unable to navigate the political waters of a traditional powerhouse. That's not really a knock -- it probably speaks to his decency as a person, actually. But the man failed here.

Joined: 08/30/2009

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Blue Durham

October 30th, 2014 at 6:35 PM ^

Rodriguez took over a team that was "meh" and had them at the same level of "meh" for two years? Based on what? Not record. 8-5 each of his first 2 years is a FUCK-TON better than the 4-8 squad he took over. Regarding your second paragraph, I actually don't know. They seem better, but marginally. Arizona's defense still has some issues. Regarding Hoke, I never liked the hire, and said so at the time. I was happy but not overwhelmed with his first season. At that time, in all of my posts, I was respectful but never laudatory. The table was set for him nicely and Denard made shitty plays look like genius. Hoke's second season was prolog to all that is happening now. The coaching was underwhelming as he underutilized many of the assets he had on offense. The defense, if anything, was worse. Hoke's third season, last year, only confirmed this. I stated on many occasions during the season, that the trend was clear, the team, and its record, were tracking down, not up. The further remove the team was from Rodriguez, and the more affect Hoke's coaching had on the team, the worse it got. Each and every year. Rodriguez failed at Michigan for a number of reasons. Some were unquestionably his fault (defense and DC problems, some position coach cronies), some not (lack of support in the AD, the poor state of the roster when he arrive - if you doubt this please refer to disastrous QB and OL situation in 2008, Brian wrote extensively about that in his preview). I also have stated that at the time I was ambivalent about his firing. But Hoke owns his failure, completely; despite your numerous past protestations, it is all of his making. Hoke was NEVER an upgrade over Rodriguez, and the larger point, the one that the board is dancing around but never seems to quite explicitly state: Rodriguez may have deserved to be fired, but firing him IN ORDER TO HIRE HOKE WAS A MASSIVE MISTAKE THAT ON ITS FACE WAS ABSURD. Not one school from a major conference ever considered Hoke for a position as head coach, let alone a major power. Firing Rodriguez to hire a qualified, competent coach, fine. But not Hoke. The proof, which I am sure you will not like: Rodriguez had West Virginia, and had offers from the likes of Alabama before he came to Michigan. After Michigan, Rodriguez has Arizona. There have never been any "West Virginias" or "Alabamas" in Hokes past, and there will be no "Arizonas" in Hoke future. He's that bad.

Joined: 06/30/2008

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Reader71

October 31st, 2014 at 7:52 AM ^

I know. But I am not playing the Coach Hoke sucks so Coach Rod was good game. I've never shifted blame from Hoke on any subject but one: Offensive line recruiting. That's it. That's the only part of his failure that I blame Coach Rod for, and that's only because it is literally impossible for Hoke to have recruited any in 2009 or 2010. I would also say that Coach Rod was not fired to make way for Brady Hoke. Coach Rod was fired because he went 15-22 in three seasons. Ironically, Brady Hoke will soon be fired for having a similar, albeit better, record over the last three. Why is this hard for some of you to comprehend?

Joined: 08/30/2009

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Blue Durham

October 31st, 2014 at 11:16 AM ^

When Hoke arrived, the OL situation was good the first year with 4 future NFL players, but, yes the following couple of years the line was a lot thinner. And Rodriguez bears much of the responsibility for that. Brandon has some responsibility due to the procrastination in firing Rodriguez and its effect on the recruiting class, and Hoke for failing to develop players to fill the positions. But the OL situation was much worse in Rodriguez first year here, Brian posted this at length in his preview to the season, and it was greatly compounded by the problem at QB. Yet I have not seen you once ever give Rodriguez the same kind of consideration that you have given Hoke YEARS into Hokes tenure. I have not seen you give ANY consideration for what Rodriguez walked into his FIRST YEAR. You have stated, numerous times, he is to blame, 3-9 etc. Finally, you say that Rodriguez was not fired to make way for Brady Hoke. But on the face of it, that really is the way it worked out. But secondly, I do suspect that is exactly what happened. It has been reported here by several people that, during a charity golf outing PRIOR to Rodriguez' last season that Brandon told them that Hoke would be Michigan's next coach. The way the coaching search was conducted seem to confirm that.

Joined: 06/30/2008

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ak47

October 30th, 2014 at 4:30 PM ^

You know what else is cherry picking stats?  Using mid year records.  In the three years prior to Bray Hoke the coach went 15-22 and to this point in his year three Hoke was 25-8.  Also guess what ,at this exact time last year Michigan had 1 loss, an ot loss in a game they missed three game winning field goals in.

Obviously just looking at numbers avoids how the team looked in those games but its not like Zona has been breezing through bad teams this year either.  Their win over Oregon is masking near losses to terrible teams like cal and washington state.  Hoke needs to be fired but all this throwing around of numbers claiming that it proves rich rod is a great coach and then dismmising numbers over the same time period for hoke because he is just doing it due to rich rod is stupid.  Rich Rod is a better coach than Hoke but that doesn't mean he was good or would have been good for michigan and anyone trying to use two and a half years of data to prove a point is being dumb, especially since he was all of 15-11 in the only two complete years he has had and this one isn't done yet.

Joined: 05/05/2011

MGoPoints: 33614

McSomething

October 31st, 2014 at 12:32 AM ^

Since we're so fond of looking at 3 year periods to make a point, let's take a look at Michigan from 2012-14. 2012: 8-5 2013: 7-6 2014: 3-5 (3-9 a real possibility, 5-7 a "reasonable" ceiling) Total: 18-16, with 18-20 not being outside the realm of possibility. Holy fuck what an improvement.

Joined: 09/29/2010

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RJMAC

October 30th, 2014 at 4:20 PM ^

Signature wins against Oregon for two years and a winning record. His team is still at least a year away from being dominant. They're pretty much overachieving with their current team. But again,he has them trending upward in year three with a young QB that is playing well.

Joined: 09/23/2014

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East German Judge

October 30th, 2014 at 3:29 PM ^

Most all the points above are valid, but just look at the trend for RR:

3-9,

5-7,

7-6 and

BH : 11-2 (RR's kids),

8-5 (some RR kids and some his),

7-6 (fewer RR kids, more his),

3-5 (most all his)

 

Joined: 10/05/2014

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pearlw

October 30th, 2014 at 3:37 PM ^

One thing that is sometimes is forgotten is that RR was not trending up as much as your season records show..he was trending down sharply at the end. RR's last team went 2-6 in their last 8 games and his last 2 games were a 30 point loss to OSU and a 38 point loss in a bowl game to Miss St. Not exactly trending positive at the end there.


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Blue and Joe

October 30th, 2014 at 3:37 PM ^

There are dozens of good reasons for why RR had to be fired. But there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he was a better coach than Hoke, and I am positive he would not be sitting on 3 wins right now. 

Does any of that matter now? Nope. We made our bed, and now we are sleeping miserably in it. Hopefully we can learn from our mistakes.

Joined: 12/03/2011

MGoPoints: 7231

chatster

October 30th, 2014 at 3:37 PM ^

Who engineered the trade of a reasonably competent defensive coordinator in Scott Shafer for a man who from 2005-2008 had been the worst Head Coach in Syracuse football history, causing the Orange to have their only two double-digit loss seasons ever?  During part of the time, he also was Co-Defensive Coordinator at Syracuse, and while running his own schemes and working mostly with his own assistants and his own players, that man’s defenses at Syracuse were ranked 57th (when his defense consisted of Paul Pasqualoni’s players), 107th, 111th and 101st during those four seasons.
 
Some people wanted the silver-haired man with the stuffed beaver to stay at Michigan, hoping that he could bring some of his NFL “magic” to Ann Arbor; but then they considered his work as an NFL Defensive Coordinator from 200 - 2003.  The rankings for his NFL defenses from 2000-2003 were:  2000 Denver Broncos - 24th; 2001 Kansas City Chiefs - 23rd; 2002 Kansas City Chiefs - 32nd; 2003 Kansas City Chiefs - 29th.
 
Should it have come as a surprise that the man whom Rodriguez hired to replace Scott Shafer led the 2009 Michigan defense to an 82nd ranking among FBS teams, or that his 2010 Michigan defense was ranked 110th among FBS teams.  That's four out of six seasons in which Gergian defenses were among the 20 worst in college football's top division, and only one season out of those six in which his defense ranked (barely) in the top half of FBS teams.

Joined: 09/14/2010

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Wendyk5

October 30th, 2014 at 3:39 PM ^

I think the gist of this story is different - if it even is a story at all - if we're succeeding. I liked Rich Rod fine but we sucked against good teams with him at the helm. Denard was the saving grace. If he had five more years, maybe he could have figured out both sides of the ball, and been successful in the Big Ten, but no one has that much patience. This is a bigger story now because we're still struggling and he's not. 

Joined: 11/20/2008

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HarBooYa

October 30th, 2014 at 4:15 PM ^

We are not flailing right now because of bad karma from firing richrod or not being patient enough with him, we are flailing because our current regime can't develop talent or teach our guys to execute in game. What is your just desserts for letting nd pass us on win totals? What is just desserts for losing to Mac schools? What are just desserts for coaching the worst d in our history? A bunch of apologists chasing an illusion that did not exist. Good for him for picking the right job for him, we should do the same next time we pick a coach and maybe we can get our just desserts.

Joined: 06/22/2011

MGoPoints: 3098

HarBooYa

October 30th, 2014 at 4:10 PM ^

The rich rod supporters keep trying to outsmart themselves. He was the wrong fit, he had zero results and the fact that the current dumbshit won 11 games with richrod's so called guys is the ultimate condemnation not affirmation that he was turning it around. He was the head coach that oversaw the worst defense in the history of the winningest program ever. Hard to do, but he did it. Good luck to him but thanks for the memories. You people seriously have to move on and stop making false comparisons. Results. Whose got em?

Joined: 06/22/2011

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mtzlblk

October 30th, 2014 at 7:43 PM ^

-results prior to Michigan

-results in year 4 with what would have been his players

-results at where he is coaching now

-results at M currently with the Michigan Man/powerball coach they replaced him with

Those results?

 

Joined: 01/20/2009

MGoPoints: 5019

bighouse22

October 31st, 2014 at 12:35 AM ^

I think the same can be said for Hoke if we consider the metric that matters (wins and losses).  The apologists want to come up with all kinds of other metrics that are not germane to winning, but sure make him look like a real sweetheart!

Joined: 10/29/2013

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HarBooYa

October 30th, 2014 at 3:49 PM ^

Was not the solution to our problem. In fact he weakened our program He lost to Mac schools. He finished over .500 in three years ONCE! Do you remember the worst defense in the history of our program. Good for him "flourishing" out west. He sucked here and we should have known he would. Current guy sucks too and his teams are equally painful to watch.

Michigan is not the problem. Getting the wrong guy for a tough job is.

If your the right guy you will be legend.

Joined: 06/22/2011

MGoPoints: 3098

markusr2007

October 30th, 2014 at 4:02 PM ^

West Virginia:  60 wins, 26 losses,  0.698

Michigan: 15 wins, 22 losses, 0.405

Arizona: 22 wins, 11 losses, 0.667

If you haven't watched Arizona, do so. They are very reminiscent of his WV teams of old.

Joined: 10/21/2008

MGoPoints: 19372

ak47

October 30th, 2014 at 4:11 PM ^

You know whats funny about your statistic?  Through this point in Brady Hoke's third year we were

25-8

If this is the amount of time we are using to judge a coach and the viability of a program than Hoke is a bigger succes than rich rod.  Also like another poster pointed out Rich Rods overall seasons record might have increased but he finished 2010 2-6, not exactly turning it on.

Joined: 05/05/2011

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ak47

October 31st, 2014 at 12:24 AM ^

Sure I'll graph that for you and it will look good it would go 11-2 8-5 6-1 to this point and rich rods would go 8-5 8-5 and 6-1. Also if rich rod is so good no matter what players why did his first 3 years here all fail? One coach taking another's players and having them play better is usually the sign of a better coach. In this case it probably wasn't but hoke having a good year in 2011 doesn't gaurantee that rich rod would have. I don't think he would have gone 11-2 that year, apparently you do but neither of us knows so it's pointless to try to use in a discussion either way.

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bighouse22

October 31st, 2014 at 12:30 AM ^

RR was also improving those players which was evidenced by the upward trend in his record.  We will never know what they record would have been in year 4, but Hoke came in and the team continued to run a spread that year.

Since the gradual shift to manball it has been nothing but a downward trend.

Joined: 10/29/2013

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mgob-rad

October 30th, 2014 at 4:06 PM ^

Michigan in no way made a mistake by firing rich Rodriguez. Obviously the mistake was made in hiring hoke, but in RR's tenure here he never put together anything close to a decent defense and could not beat our rivals. Arizona is a much better fit for him and I am glad he is having success there, but there is absolutely no evidence he would have had the same success here as he is having at Arizona.

Joined: 09/18/2014

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FrankMurphy

October 30th, 2014 at 4:12 PM ^

Why do people think the cause of Rich Rod's failure is so black-and-white? There's no reason why this topic still needs to be so polarizing almost four years after the fact. Yes, Rich Rod made some critical mistakes during his tenure that lead to his downfall, and yes, his downfall was also caused by circumstances beyond his control. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

My sense is that Rich Rod's system and philosophy have to have a very specific set of ingredients--i.e., assistant coaches and types of players--to work. All coaches are like that to some extent, but I think the set of acceptable substitutes is probably a lot shorter in Rich Rod's system than it is in others. If he has those ingredients, the sky's the limit, but if he doesn't, he'll fail spectacularly. At Michigan, he failed because he was lacking too many essential ingredients. Part of that was due to Rich Rod's own mistakes and lack of flexibility (bad defensive coordinator hires, forcing the 3-3-5 on coordinators who had no experience with it, loyalty to Tony Gibson, failing to focus on the State of Michigan in recruiting, etc), but part of it was also due to circumstances beyond his control (depleted roster in 2008, no experienced QBs, constant undermining from within the program, lack of support from Carr and others, a horrific rash of injuries in the secondary, etc). 

Joined: 08/19/2008

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get-on-my-lawn

October 30th, 2014 at 4:14 PM ^

Other places, and didn't succeed at basically only ONE place... Don't you suspect there's a reason, or many, as to why. Things such as not being fully allowed to do what he wanted due to lack of given resources, not allowing to have total control of decisions, unwarranted pressure from the "big guys" behind the scenes, and many other things many of us don't even know about. I've always wanted him to work out as I love his style of offense. There were times where I couldn't stand him, and he's far from GREAT, but he's shown he can put together a football team and win games against tough opponents given the right circumstances, and it pisses me off that these circumstances never came to fruition for him here at Michigan.

Joined: 02/14/2013

MGoPoints: 1064

FrankMurphy

October 30th, 2014 at 4:33 PM ^

How about the ability to outbid WVU for the services of his defensive coordinator whom he had worked with for seven years? The blame for not being able to lure Casteel away from WVU falls on Bill Martin's stinginess, not on Rich Rod. Now, it's a fair point to say that he shouldn't have needed Casteel to be successful or that he shouldn't have hired Scott Shafer or Greg Robinson, which goes back to the point of Rodriguez' own mistakes and lack of flexibility. But both perspectives have some validity.

It's worth noting that Scott Shafer and Greg Robinson have both done okay for themselves after leaving Michigan.

Joined: 08/19/2008

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MileHighWolverine

October 30th, 2014 at 5:05 PM ^

It's worth noting that every coach since 2008 has done ok, or in some cases more than ok, for themselves since leaving Michigan.

What's the common denominator? Michigan.....we did this to ourselves with the toxic culture surrounding the AD. People come here and they suck.....they leave and the flourish.

Clean sweep, please.

Joined: 09/02/2008

MGoPoints: 7749

funkywolve

October 30th, 2014 at 4:16 PM ^

15 years from now are we going to be having these same discussions??

Some times things don't just work out.  Belichick wasn't anything special at Cleveland but he's a Hall of Fame coach at NE.  Carroll didn't set the world on fire with the Jets or the Pats but he's done a good job with the Seahawks.  Shit happens.  As others have pointed out,  there was a lot of obstacles for RR to clear but at the same time, RR himself probably made some poor decisions too.

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bighouse22

October 31st, 2014 at 12:22 AM ^

You are right about the conversation 15 years from now.  At that point we will have even more data, and it will look crazy that we let RR go for a coach that will be a position coach once again.  

RR is still a young coach and you will see him move up the coaching ranks in terms of wins.  The only way this isn't a burning topic is if Michigan is once again on top of the college football world.

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