Rodriguez vs. Beilein

Submitted by coachclen on

NO! Not another "Let's fire these guys" post. 

However, last night while watching the Clemson game I got into a gentle argument with one of my friends regarding John Beilein. I made the comment that I really believed in him as a coach and despite last year's regression, I think that the program is headed in the right direction. He chastised me, saying that Beilein is quite similar to Rodriguez (with whom I quite frustrated with).

But, either way, with Rodriguez a bowl game away from completing his third season, putting he and Beilein almost at equal parts of the tenures (I do know an extra off season makes a big difference, but just for argument's sake) here at Michigan. I think it is a good time (and I'm sick of the Harbaugh consternation) to compare and contrast Rodriguez and Beilein and their successes/failures here at U of M. And rather than me pontificating my thoughts, I thought I'd throw it out to the Mgoboard and have a conversation with many. 

 

[Side Note] Over/under on the number of times "Beilein" gets misspelled in this thread: 50. (I'm taking the over)

Hoke_Floats

December 1st, 2010 at 9:33 AM ^

hasn't beilein come out and said he needs to alter his player wish list?

that he needs to get bigger players to compete in the big 10 than he had with west va?

correct me if I am wrong, but he tweaked his philosophy a bit for the B10

go ahead and neg away if I am wrong

JamesBondHerpesMeds

December 1st, 2010 at 8:55 AM ^

Beilein has the height advantage and a longer reach, but Rodriguez will probably put some more power behind his punches and really go for JB's body in the early rounds. My prediction: Rodriguez in a split-decision.
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<br>....wait, are we talking about coaching?

CRISPed in the DIAG

December 1st, 2010 at 9:00 AM ^

I like watching RR's offense.  It thrills the hell out of me and is relatively proven.  OTOH, I do NOT like watching Beilein's offense because it seems too deliberate and typically ends with a clanked long-range jumper.  But then, I like the NBA much more than college play, so maybe I'm not the best critic.

coachclen

December 1st, 2010 at 9:05 AM ^

That was exactly the same argument my friend had. I argued that it seemed like in the first half they placed more of an emphasis on getting inside. But, in the second half they seemed to revert to the style you (and he) are talking about and dislike so much.

Bosch

December 1st, 2010 at 11:24 AM ^

lies within the individiaul that each coach followed and the patience of the fan base in regards to the respective sport.

Beilein took over for a coach who was fired for incompetence.  RR took over for man who was revered and retired on his own accord.  And, more notably, football is King in Ann Arbor.  The coaches for the other sports will get the benefit of the doubt because, quite frankly, less people care so the grumbling from the agitated masses is a few decibels lower than it is when the football team stumbles..

burtcomma

December 1st, 2010 at 9:31 AM ^

Patience has been the key hallmark of Michigan coaching changes covering both basketball and football over the current modern period starting in 1969 with Bo (least time was Moeller for 5 years) and Johnny Orr (least time was Ellerbee at 4 years).

Beilein and Rodriquez are both most likely to get the benefit of that patience, regardless of whether we think it is a good idea or not.

ChasingRabbits

December 1st, 2010 at 9:37 AM ^

Beilein used the gradual approach to convert the team to his style, initially tailoring the team to the strengths of the two stars he inherited, he made the tourney in year 2... We are now rebuilding in year 4 (yet nobody seems to care)

RR did the total makeover from day one approach, hugely painful in year 1, slightly less so in year 2 and even less in year 3 (going by record, bowl appearance in a year with a more difficult schedule not by actual "feel")  Yet, everyone cares.

RR did it the right way and may lose his job because of it, Bline bought himself the time he needs to build what he wants by winning in year 2. 

If you want to keep your job, I guess you go the bline way?

Bosch

December 1st, 2010 at 11:39 AM ^

Beilein used the gradual approach to convert the team to his style, initially tailoring the team to the strengths of the two stars he inherited, he made the tourney in year 2... We are now rebuilding in year 4 (yet nobody seems to care)

Ask Epke Udoh if the transition was gradual.  Both coaches approached their first seasons the same way.  They instilled their philosophies from day one, which is what they should have done for long term benefit.

michgoblue

December 1st, 2010 at 10:05 AM ^

Obvious caveats about how different FB and BB are, and how differently each fits into the Michigan sports landscape, but here goes:

1.  Starting point (i.e. what they got when they walked in the door): 

Beilein took over a program in shambles.  The NCAA probations / sanctions were a few years back, but still being felt.  The team had been poorly run by the prior coach / admin and needed a rebuild.  Recruiting at Michigan for BB was not going to be easy.

Rodriguez took over a program that was still considered a powerful program.  Only 2 years before, we were 1 game away from playing for the NC (finishing with 10 wins), and even in 2007, we finished with 9-4.  While we did not have the usual stock pile of Michigan talent, we were far from bereft of Michigan-level players on both sides of the ball.  Michigan was still a name brand football program.

2.  Recruiting

Neither Beilein or RR has lit up the charts with their recruiting, but there are mitigating factors to both.  Beilein's are obvious - as discussed above, Michigan BB had been in shambles for years.  For RR, he came in with so much undeserved negativity, that recruiting was not going to be easy.  Add to that the win-loss results of the first 2 seasons, the constant hot seat media coverage and the major cultural shift in the program and he faced some pretty tough difficulties.  The only negative in RR's side of the column is that despite the negativity, Michigan's name still gets you in the door at most FB players' homes - from there, I would have expected him to close the deal better on at least a few more big name recruits.

3.  Changing the program

This is one area where I feel that Beilein had the right idea and RR the wrong one.  Beilein came in and did not immediately seek to change the whole culture of Michigan BB overnight (if we had a culture).  He worked the team to fit his two current star players, and the results were a less painful transition, which has probably helped him recruit this past year. 

RR, on the other hand, brought in an entirely new system on both offense and defense.  He did not tailer the team's offense to fit its existing personner.  Did it really make sense to try to run the zone read option with Nick Sheridan?  While I understand his reason for doing this - get all of the pain out of the way in one or two years - at a school that hasn't had a losing season in decades and that prided itself on its then longest current bowl streak, that was probably not the best call.  With the talent that we had in 2008, a more gradual approach would have yielded a 6-7 win season (illinois, Toledo, Pudue and Northwestern were easily winable, and even MSU and ND could have been tossups) and kept our bowl streak alive.  By going for the immediate and complete make-over, RR lost a large segment of the fanbase that he might have been able to retain had he made a better first impression.

4.  Team Play

This has been discussed above, but Beilein is known for stressing fundamentals.  Even when we lose, it is not because of fundamental breakdowns - it is because we are out-talented.  RR, on the other hand, really does appear to lack the ability to get his players to play fundamentally sound football.  Fumbles, muffed returns, stupid penalties, not knowing that a missed FG is a live ball, excessive dropped passes, etc. have plagued the FB team during the RR tenure, and this is an area that has not improved.  I have seen some talk that these issues existed in RR's prior teams, as well, but I have no idea as to whether this is true.  If it is, it is a concern. 

5.  Watchability

For lack of a better word, RR's team (let's put aside defense for now) is fun to watch.  When the offense is clicking, we look scary good and strike from many different angles - running, passing, short screens, long bombs, QB runs, QB fake throws followed by a run.  It is just fun to watch our offense when it is not stalling (I do expect the stalling to decrease next year if for no other reason than Junior Denard).

Beilein, by comparison, fields a boring team.  It is like watching 1960s style bball.  Now, at the endof the day, if it works, I am ok with this, but purely from a comparison standpoint, RR's team is more fun to watch.

6.  Media Style

In a surprise twist, I am going to give this one to RR.  Yes, ESPN loves Beilein and the MSM sings his praises.  He is a great guy, clean cut, says the right things, etc.  But now let's look at RR.  He has also handled the media with an amazing amount of grace.  I can't imagine that I would resist the urge to throw a microphone at the press crew as long as he has after being asked the same, stupid questions week after week for 3 years.  To me,  RR had done as good of a job as any person could do faced with his trying circumstances.  Many a coach would have had at least one media tirade by now, and he has not. 

Just my long, rambling thoughts.  Not meant to be a criticism of either coach.

coachclen

December 1st, 2010 at 10:14 AM ^

The only point I slightly disagree with, and I know you explain your reasoning very well (Name Brand. etc) is that roster-wise, I'm not sure they inherited dissimilar teams. Granted, as you mentioned, the program as a whole was in better shape for Rod. But it had started to decline (The HORROR, though I suppose you could argue FLA victory took away some pain) and the immediate dissent Rod was met with really kinda evens things out, in my opinion, and roster-wise I think talent levels were similar in year one. 

Mitch Cumstein

December 1st, 2010 at 10:17 AM ^

I would also say its really hard to compare what you have on a roster in bball compared to fball.  In basketball if you have 2 real good players, its easy to patch the holes and field a competitive team.  In football, you really need a well balanced lineup and some depth. So while Beilein probably didn't inherit as much, he didn't really need to inherit as much to field a decent team.

michgoblue

December 1st, 2010 at 10:24 AM ^

Both fair points - I agree that in BB, all you really need is 2 solid players, whereas in FB, you need balance at many given positions. 

On the FB side, at least on offense, in 2008, we have decent to good receivers, RB, TE, but were obviously lacking at QB and O-line.  I do believe that Threet - who has played fairly well since leaving Michigan - would have been capable of managing an offense that could have been ranked in the 40-65 range (as opposed to the disaster that it was) had RR tailored the offense more to his skill set.  As for the defense, we were still pretty loaded up in 2008.

Bosch

December 1st, 2010 at 12:10 PM ^

for thinking that Beilein worked the system around the players instead of the players around the system.  Manny and Peedi could play on the perimeter.  What did they do that didn't work with Beilein's philosophy?

Alternately, Udoh did not feel comfortable in the offense, so he transferred.

You are drawing conclusions based on the management of 12 players versus 100.  The growing pains were there in both instances but the transition seemed more fluid because the situation wasn't as complex.

ChalmersE

December 1st, 2010 at 11:12 AM ^

1.  Beilein came into a program that had been in decline for a decade or more; Rodriguez came into a program that had the longest consecutive years of winning seasons.

2.  Michigan's basketball facilities were substandard; Michigan's football facilities are about as good as any.

3.  Michigan has one national championship in basketball and about a dozen in football

4.  The preceding three lead inexorably to the fourth difference:  the vast majority of Michigan alums and fans are more concerned about football than basketball. 

jmblue

December 1st, 2010 at 3:22 PM ^

The weight room itself was fine.  It was more the philosophy behind the excercises we did that was outdated.  In any event, this is tangential to the argument; our S&C program was the way it was because Carr wanted it that way, not because the AD neglected it. 

Bosch

December 1st, 2010 at 4:33 PM ^

Bill Martin would not have written a $1 million check for an adjustment on weight training philosophies and it's probably safe to say that the weight room went through significant physical improvements for that amount.
 
Crisler doesn't need improvements because it has been neglected.  It needs improvements because the facility is old and out dated.

 

jmblue

December 1st, 2010 at 6:46 PM ^

I don't think you understand.  Under Carr/Gittleson, we had a weight room that primarily featured weight machines.  Under RR/Barwis, the weight room primarily features free weights.  Both were state-of-the-art for the philosophy the coach wanted.  

As for Crisler, it wouldn't be "outdated" if we hadn't neglected its upkeep for years and years.  It's not even the main problem.  The much, much bigger issue is that currently, the basketball program has no practice facility.  Thankfully, that is being addressed. 

Blue Bunny Friday

December 1st, 2010 at 3:44 PM ^

“The guys at Michigan, man, they prepared me,” Woods told me. “Trust me. They prepared me. The head strength coach (Mike Barwis), the assistant (Parker Whiteman), I’m pretty sure they got tired of seeing my face up in there, but they allowed me to work out, use the facilities, go around, eat, everything. They treated me like family. You play at Michigan, you come back, they treat you like family. I got nothing but love for those guys and I appreciate what they did.”

This was just this last fall. Link

Captain Obvious

December 1st, 2010 at 11:37 AM ^

Disclosure - I'm in favor of retaining both coaches for 2 more years, absent moral turpitude or a truly epic collapse.  For all the talk of the "modern era" and how coaches must produce in x years, I like to think of Michigan as different than the rest.  We have historically given coaches more time to be effective.  It makes Michigan a pleasing place to coach, unlike ND.  Moving on...

DB's full endorsement of JB while scrutinizing the hell out of RR is complete bullshit.  JB did wonders with his talent 2 years ago and then completely whiffed last year (I'll ignore his first year, he didn't have time to do anything there).  Last year's team was ranked 15th preseason and we didn't even sniff the NIT.  While I scoffed at this ranking ( I would have put us around 30th), there's no denying that we underperformed with a jr Manny, snr Sims, new top 100 PG and top shooter, year in the system for the shooters, etc.

This year we have another very poor season possibly staring us in the face and DB goes against his "must evaluate everything always" stance and gives JB his full endorsement.  Why?  Facilities?  Give me a break - JB is recruiting well and getting great players for his system IMO so that argument falls flat.  After the facilities are done we aren't going to be getting top 20 type players - those are reserved for cheating programs or current powerhouses.

Meanwhile, RR has shown steady improvement after completely overhauling the team.  There have been tons of extenuating circumstances that I won't re-write.  The issues with the current team are clear and fixable.  The team is also very young.

Give both guys time and be consistent in applying your policies, DB.

jmblue

December 1st, 2010 at 3:28 PM ^

DB's full endorsement of JB while scrutinizing the hell out of RR is complete bullshit.

Maybe it's worth bearing in mind what Brandon has had to say: "You can write me emails, contact me all you want, but remember that you have access to five percent of the information I have.  I see what goes on.  I'm in the film room, I'm at practice, and I'm on the sidelines."

It's funny.  When he uttered these words, everyone assumed it proved he was pro-RR.  No one considered that maybe he's seeing things behind the scenes that he doesn't like. 

jmblue

December 1st, 2010 at 3:19 PM ^

It's not complicated.  Beilein's second season (2008-09) was our most successful basketball season this century.  That bought him a lot of goodwill, and justifiably so.  Even if he couldn't sustain the success last season, it demonstrated that he was at least capable of attaining it. 

It must be recognized as well that we are way behind our Big Ten peers in basketball facilities - and I'm not talking about Crisler (though it, too, needs a facelift).  We don't have a practice facility right now.  We practice some of the time in Crisler, but there are five other sports teams that use it.  When one of them is there, we have to use the IM Building or Coliseum.  Try telling a recruit your school is serious about basketball when that happens.  When the basketball practice facility opens a year from now, it'll be a new day for the program.  We'll finally be on a level playing field.  At that point the expectations will go up. 

Blue Bunny Friday

December 1st, 2010 at 4:03 PM ^

But this:

It's not complicated.  Beilein's second season (2008-09) was our most successful basketball season this century.  That bought him a lot of goodwill, and justifiably so.  Even if he couldn't sustain the success last season, it demonstrated that he was at least capable of attaining it.

Sounds an awful lot like a certain coach at ND that benefitted greatly from 1 good season with someone else's players. That makes it a little more complicated.

I really do like JB and go to as many MBB games as I can. He has a proven track record as a HC at a D1 school. He seems like a good guy. He's shown a willingness to sacrifice short-term W's for player well-being. He's had some good players leave the team lacking crucial pieces (Udoh's D). He has a young team that will likely struggle in conference play. It doesn't mean that his system won't work in the Big Ten. The team will be better next year, just from gaining experience. I don't want to fire him and start all over again.

BTW I really like Darius Morris and think he's going to be special.